On the subject of friendship/romance

[Diemen]

This isn't going to be exclusively poetry - I'd actually like to start a discussion of sorts, and as it seems so many of the posters in Dream Out Loud are far more articulate than I, so I think this would be a good place to start. And besides, this is somewhat therapeutic for me, since it's nice to actually get out some of my feelings that I usually keep to myself and let others share their wisdom/insight on the issue. I can't really think of what to designate this first part - it's not exactly poetry...call it an assemblage of related thoughts =):

I sometimes shudder to think of how she would react if she truly knew what I feel and how strongly I feel it.
How I can be near a window and catch her walking in the distance, and become totally lost in watching her walk, lost in the absurd beauty of her mere steps.
How my heart skips a beat when she sees me through the window and stops to offer me what is surely one of the most gorgeous smiles ever made.
How, even when I'm very busy, I always welcome a phone call from her and hope for a phone call from her.
How she takes my compliments as me just being a nice sweet friend, when in fact I'm being completely honest.
How when she looks at me with those gorgeous eyes of a stormy sea, I feel as if I've no place to hide and no reason to.
How I feel completely at peace when she rests on my shoulder while we watch a movie.
How I respect and admire her so much when she talks about her beliefs, hopes, and dreams.
How happy it makes me just to know that she laughs at the same things I do (and more importantly laughs at my jokes

).
How much I look forward to having lunch with her or simply meeting her on the way to a class.
How honored I feel when she says that my valentines present to her was the sweetest thing anybody has ever done for her
How much regret I feel upon hearing that, knowing that I stalled after that golden opportunity that now only holds friendship.
How truly thankful I am for that friendship.
How it pains me when I realize that as our friendship grows and strengthens, so do my feelings for her.
How incredibly hard it was for me to bare my feelings to her, knowing that she did not want anything but friendship.
How thankful I was that she took my feelings as gracefully as possible and was honest with me, only reassuring me of what a truly beautiful person (in all senses) she is, and how lucky I am to have her as any part of my life, let alone a close friend.
---

Ok, now on to the discussion part. If you can't tell, I've developed a very strong friendship with someone who was at first a romantic interest, but thanks to my lack of self-confidence and impulsiveness in relationship matters, that never came through. However, getting to know her even better through our friendship, all the reasons I liked her in the first place have only been added to and strengthened.

Well, it got so bad that I literally had to take a break (we do something together nearly every day) and not talk to her while I decided how to unload these feelings that I just couldn't ignore anymore. Long story short, I ended up telling her basically everything I could manage to get out in the nervous state I was in when I called, and as I'd already basically known, she only wanted friendship.

My question is this: why is there such a fear of getting involved romantically with a friend? They care for you, they know you pretty well - know what you like, know what you dislike, etc - you know they're not in it for some cheap ulterior motive. I know there's the risk of hurting them, but that's a risk I feel is worth taking.

Here are a few of my theories:
1)There's no mysterious aspect of excitement to it. You already know the person so part of that initial 'fleshing out' of the other person is gone. However, I think that getting involved because of the mystery or excitement of someone new shouldn't be a major concern, and it's gonna wear off soon, anyway.
2)The whole allure of a 'bad boy/girl' image is lost. I know not everyone is attracted to this, but there seems to be, at least in my experience a certain allure in women for guys who are controlling (to a certain extent) or are 'tough.' With friends, there aren't (or shouldn't be) any false pretenses or images - you're yourself around them.

Anyway, I've rambled on long enough. What do you think?

I'm kinda getting the same feeling Bubba got in his post...that I'm gonna cringe reading this later and wish I'd deleted it...

 

[zooropamanda]

Firstly Diemen, that was absolutely beautiful poetry. Most definitely poetry.Please give us more!

I know that feeling all too well.You talk of watching her and being caught up in it. I did the same thing and would feel later as if every single person could read my mind. As if they all knew exactly what I was day dreaming about.

why is there such a fear of getting involved romantically with a friend?

Just because of those very reasons you stated.
The friendhsip can so easily be lost whether you both want it to be or not, when different emotions and feelings start flying around.
When friends admit their deeper feelings, if the feelings arent reciprocated, things can become awkward merely because of the fear of hurting your true friend.
Imagine how she felt when she had to tell you how she felt.it would have been just as hard on her, as it was on you.

I dont think the excitement factor plays that heavily. If you want to be together, the fact that the person was already your friend, DOES make it very exciting.

As far as the bad boy/girl thing goes, I guess for some friends you wouldnt think that way about each other but sometimes I find that more appealing than anything. Imagine discovering that side of your friend that you had never seen before. Im not helping you out here am I?

The fact that there is no false pretenses in that sort of relationship is what makes it so special!! A friendship whereby 2 people do not have to worry what the other sees them as but only for who they really are, is something rare and special.

You can still flirt with friends, just make it a joke. I do it all the time

I know what it is like Diemen, but the thing is I never had the guts to say anything to him. I was too scared of ruining the friendship. And now the friendship is gone anyhow, as I moved away. What if Id said something? Where might we have been?
I guess I'll never know.
I always tend to fall for my friends though, its a real pain in the arse.

"Dont say that later will be better"

Life has got to be about risks.
About making change. Either that, or shrivel up and die.
Even though you didnt get the result you wanted, you made the right choice. Otherwise it would have eaten you up inside forever.

No matter where I am in life, I will always wonder about my friend.

Beautiful, beautiful poetry.

 

[The Wanderer]

man Diemen, that was brilliant peotry... I hope things work out for the best...

I'll share my story with you:

oh hell, this girl I was mad about, just "friends" with though... I never really told her exactly how I felt about her... and I love the person I am with now, and I wouldn't change that, but it's kind of bittersweet how I ran into this other girl one day (we kind of lost touch when we were at different universities) and I told her all of it, thinking she would just laugh it all off, she got this shocked look on her face as if "why didn't you say this then?" and it kind of haunts me still today, b/c you never know, maybe it would have been even greater with her... but the time for that had passed, and later a mutual friend of ours told me she had been absolutely sick over what I told her, that if she had known then... she had no idea I wanted more and would have gone further, she was afraid I didn't feel the same, now is that one of the worst things you've ever heard in your life? I just assumed she wouldn't have been interested... I always wonder what would have happened?

sad huh?

 

[Diemen]

Thanks for the responses Manda and Wanderer. I agree with a lot of what you say manda. I think that finding out other aspects of your friend is really exciting. I know that you may know a friend really well, but getting to know them in a relationship brings out a totally different aspect in them, and often a much better aspect. I for one believe I am a much better person when I'm in a relationship. I know that parts of me that don't always come out in friendships become apparent when I'm in relationships. Oh, and I definitely still flirt with friends

.

I think being in a relationship with someone who already knows you is very exciting too - but in a way I think there is a certain hesitancy and fear, because things will probably get serious much quicker. It's kinda hard to just casually date someone who is already a good friend and someone you value a lot. Things are also a lot more honest because of the bond of friendship. I offered up my first 2 theories as what I perceive to be general reasons for avoiding friendship romances - but I don't agree with them entirely

.

And Wanderer - I know exactly how you feel, and it's one of the worst feelings in the world. If I had decided to unload my feelings earlier - like soon after valentines, I am almost certain that we would be together now. After I unloaded everything on her, I told her I knew she didn't want a romance now, but I asked if there was ever a time she was excited about what might happen between us. She said that the weeks after my valentines gift (a handmade card and dinner) she was more excited over me than she had been over any guy in over a year. Ouch

. The regret over what might have been has to be one of the worst feelings, and the sad thing is that I seem to be quite good at getting it?

This is not to say that I can't enjoy our friendship because there are plenty of times that I enjoy the friendship that I don't really think about the 'might have beens,' and there are plenty of times where I'm having such a blast with her that I can put those feelings at rest momentarily. But there are also those moments when I see her working on homework or practicing (we're both piano majors), or even just something as plain and silly as eating, and something about the way she looks in that one moment just strikes me as completely beautiful, and then the regret sets in.

If you've seen When Harry Met Sally, I think you'll agree with something Harry says: "Men and women can never truly be just friends." For a long time I disagreed with this and tried to justify my reasons, but in most cases it's true (with the exception of just plain casual friendships or friendships where there's absolutely no physical attraction whatsoever). There is always some little voice in the back of a guy's head saying "you know, what if there was more between us?" I don't follow through on Harry's reasoning that it's because we want to have sex with them, I think it's more because we want to share ourselves with them in more ways than a friendship permits.

Relationships - who'll ever figure 'em out?

[This message has been edited by Diemen (edited 10-29-2000).]

 

[zooropamanda]

sigh...

some brutal truths here.

i cant believe you brought up the when harry met sally thing. i thought of that myself cause that line has always stuck in my head. i have pondered over it, many times.

whether it is true or not, i think both sexes would atleast think about 'what if' at some point in the friendship.
even with one of my oldest friends that ive known since we were born, i have thought about it in a fleeting moment, but then it quickly went away again hehehe

so truly, boys, do you think you could never just be friends with a girl if you are both unattached?

im interested in the male thoughts on this.

 

[Diemen]

Well, you already know some of my thoughts, but I actually do have a few friendships where I can honestly say I've never really had a serious 'what if' question. But, those friendships also tend to be the ones that I don't really put that much time into - they're more casual and based around school and such.

I've found that with every girl that I've formed a strong friendship with, I've also had the 'what ifs' at certain stages. I've overcome that in a few of them to where I can honestly say I wouldn't date them, but you never know what may happen in the future. I think there can be long periods where you don't entertain any what if ideas, but it can change very quickly and without any real warning.

What I've found is that as I get to really know a girl and build a strong friendship, I get those what if feelings. Looking back now, my closest girl friends (not girlfriends) right now also happen to be the ones I had strong feelings for at some point (or still do as is the case with the one who inspired this thread).

In a way I do count myself as very lucky to have such beautiful, intelligent, strong, wonderful women as close friends, but there's that nagging voice in my head that says "what if you hadn't stalled/what if you had moved on your feelings as you felt them/what if you followed through on your impulses" and reminds me of lost opportunities. It's not always there, like I said before sometimes I'm so wrapped up in the strength and fun of the friendship that the voice disappears for a while. But it's there enough to keep me thinking.

 

[The Wanderer]

ZooManda says:

so truly, boys, do you think you could never just be friends with a girl if you are both unattached?

some thoughts...

that's a very difficult question to answer, and honestly I don't know... it's a bit overwhelming when you become friends with someone, at least for me anyway, I just tend to want to share everything with them, that is, if the friendship is that deep it's just hard for me to draw the line, I am always wondering if it could be more intense and perfect, which is a dangerous thing, b/c that can ruin everything... I often find myself getting too attached to someone and having to step back because I suddenly find myself wanting more... and you just can't go around having several girlfriends, or can you

haha! that's a joke, but I am serious also, and it's not often that I get attached like that, I have a lot of "casual friends" and I don't really find myself wanting it to be anything more with them... but if a person captures my imagination and gets under my skin, I find myself wanting to be with them all the time, sharing everything... I just can't help it, and it's not neccessarily just the desire to have sex, it's about being completely intimate... no limits, no boundaries, that sort of thing...

I would say that for me, it would be difficult to avoid "wanting more" if I didn't have someone standing inside my heart screaming "hey you! I love you! and don't you forget how much we mean to each other... you have all those things with me already!"

and that being said, when you are attached to someone else, it's difficult to be extremely close to someone else from the opposite sex, b/c you become afraid that you will get carried away with it... at least that's how I feel, and when neither of you are attached, it's a bit impossible not to at least entertain thought now and then of going further...

but then again, recently I am startig to think I can have truly great female friends and not get caught up thinking about "other" things... but I still find myself wanting to know them completely, as far as how they think and feel, and what their passions and dreams are... you know, as Bono says, "the goal is soul," and it's about trying to connect with the soul... and in a way, doing that is about trying to connect with your own soul at the same time... a "soul embrace" is what I like to call it

 

[Diemen]

Well said, Wanderer. I think it's hard to not cross the friendship boundary with someone you want to know everything about. The thing is, I want them as close friends, but after getting to know them better, I realize what truly amazing, wonderful and special people they are. And who doesn't want to become intimate with someone like that, ya know? The girls who are my closest friends all have a lot of the qualities I look for in a girlfriend.

Oh well, one of these days I'll figure out all this stuff.

 

[scappy]

When you figure it out, diemen, clue me in, would you?!

lol

As hard as it is discovering feelings for a friend, the timing issue makes it even more difficult. Seems to me that the male friends whom I've been 'interested in' in the past have always come to their senses about their feelings for me just as I was moving away. Then comes all the doubting about whether or not you should really move, or if you should stay to be with that person. And that kind of a decision puts way too much pressure on a relationship...it almost always fails.

I've had several male friends for whom the passion never built. They were friends and nothing more. I was extremely interested in their thoughts and beliefs, and vastly enjoyed their company, but never felt any romantic stirrings. So I say you CAN be just friends. But what do I know?! I haven't been on a date in a year!

------------------
"And it's already gone too far..."

 

[arden75]

I loved the poem and whoever the girl is, I doubt she realizes how blessed she is to have someone see her the way you do!

I have always fallen into the friendship pitfall. I should say first that I love having close male friends- usually my best friends are male. I find that I get along with guys better than I do with some of my girl friends sometimes.

But my deeper heartaches come from my friends as well. Recently, a friend of mine became a close friend. He had been going through a rough time because of a girl who had mistreated, and cheated on him. He confided in me over several weeks and because of this we established a close relationship. We always ended up in our own little world together. B/c of my own friendship/romances in the past I am always weary of crossing the line b/c that usually means I will be less one friend. Man- do I hate that! Over time I got the impression that he was open to more happening b/w us. I was worried about the friendship, yes- But I was more worried about him. After the break up he was devastated! And this angered me and I let him know exactly what I thought about what she had done (they dated for over two years and she cheated the entire time!) and supported him and cheered him on. I began to have stronger feelings for him but neither of us ever came out and said anything. It seemed through our actions and words we danced around the subject. But I know we both cared. He found himself in trouble one night and I had to "bail" him out at 2am. He revealed to me his concern that I thought he was a terrible guy and this just made it worse. I explained to him that it didn't change anything- all that meant was that someone important to me was in trouble and I was so happy that I could help! Now I was vulnerable and that really scared me! I've been told by mutual friends that he thinks so highly of me and talks about me like he has never talked about anyone before. But I never heard that from him and maybe that his why I never laid it on the line with him.
And here is the sad ending- he is back together with the old girl...much to all of our disappointment. He hasn't said anything to me about it yet, which really hurts. I think I was a really good friend to him, the best I knew how to be without boring you with the details. This action tells me that he appreciates me...when he needs me. On top of it all- I made my dislike for her very clear during our time together- and now she is back in his life. That doesn't help the friendship either.
I miss him, but it'll just have to be. What's done is done. I can't help but wonder myself, what if I had swallowed all of my apprehension and fear, and brought it all out into the light? I am afraid he is just going to get hurt again. I don't know if I can help him through it again considering I put myself out so much that I ended up hurt. I was afraid to say all of it because of what would happen to our friendship....not something I need to worry about anymore. So I too am taking a break so that I can get myself back together again. (That is why I am really loving ALTYCLB!!) Friendships are a wonderful basis for a relationship, I still believe that. But you have to be willing to take some serious risks in the process! I wasn't so that tells me that maybe it wasn't meant for me- but that isn't to say that my emotions weren't real.
Diemen- you are ready to take that risk. Give her some time to sit with this. Once the idea is planted in someones mind, it's like telling someone not think of a purple hippo (not easy, right?) Live your life for yourself on your own time and be open to possibilities. She may just need time because it is so scary- I've been on that side of it too and waited too long to come to my senses. This is a tricky business, a necessary evil if you will, and I hate it. But then again, I am sucker for the happy ending where the friends come together and live happily ever after! GOOD LUCK!!

 

[Diemen]

Thanks so much for sharing that here, arden. It's funny how sometimes a complete stranger is just the perfect person to tell your story to, isn't it?

A little update - Jaclyn (might as well say her name) and I are basically back to the normal friendship we had before - back to talking daily and going out to lunch regularly. I'm glad it's kinda returned to normal so quickly, but in a way I'm also a little disappointed, if that makes any sense. The only time we talked about my feelings was the night I told her, and that was on the phone, so it feels like it didn't come through like I wanted it to. The only indication I've gotten from her in person that I actually did say the things I did was when I asked her to check her email (I had written her the day after we talked to better get across some things I either didn't get out or didn't say as well as I wanted to in my nervous state at the time...) - she gave me a sincere thanks for it. And I can understand her reasons for not wanting to bring it up, I'm sure the last thing she was expecting was for one her best friends to confess his feelings to her.

But she does know, and I think the only thing I can hope for is that the purple hippo is actually there in her thoughts for a while

. There is a little extra something now, though - some kind of unspoken understanding now that I can feel. Strange as it may seem this whole episode may have opened the door for an even stronger friendship. I think there's a deeper respect now that she knows that I like her even more now that I've gotten to know her so well. Just gotta hope for the purple hippo to stick around

.

One good thing I've learned is that in long term friendships that are strong, there is a real and true love for the other person that develops - maybe not a romantic love, but still a love that I think opens the possibility for more down the road. I've known my best friend since the 7th grade, and I had a huge crush on her for the longest time, but through it all we were really good friends. Now, nearly 10 years after we first became friends, we can talk comfortably about those days and we've even talked about the possibility of something more (I say this without really getting my hopes up, because we live in separate states and i haven't seen her in 3 years). But there is an acceptance in that friendship that we both share a lot of the qualities that we like in a romance, and I guess our friendship has grown and matured enough that we can accept that and not try and hide it. We've joked that if we're still single in 5 years...

.

--

On a different note - here's my one problem with ATYCLB: there's no song on there that fits my situation that I can tell Jaclyn to pay attention to

. I bought ATYCLB at a midnight release, but I'd already ordered one online and it should be coming in tomorrow, so I'm going to give it to her.

*tacks on another chapter to his novella*

 

[Diemen]

Geez, I'm in a reflective mood lately...this is another one that's amazing to look back on how it was written well over a year ago, and a lot of it still applies.

Wow this was an interesting read.

------------------
Maybe I'm too young
To keep good love from going wrong
But tonight
You're on my mind
So you never know