The end of the innocence

[financeguy]

Enough of the illusions.

To begin, over the last decade or so, the ordinary punters all over 'the West' have taken on far too much debt while their earning power - their ability to service debt - has stagnated or even declined.

We passed the point where punters were maxed out and simply couldn't afford to take on any more debt, to spend on consumerist tat they didn't actually need.

Now, the resulting "recession" - in reality, says I, a return to normality - is being used as an excuse to reduce their wages even further, making the already existing debt even harder to service.

So, what little earnings punters have is all going on servicing the massive debt overhang, and until this mountain of debt is greatly reduced - through a combination of being paid back and written off - the populace are simply unable to go on a spending spree, no matter how low interest rates are reduced, or what crazy schemes are promoted to "encourage" them to have "confidence" in spending.

All this of which shows how completely insane a global system was that relied on the populace enslaving themselves to huge piles of debt in order to buy tons of shiny pointless crap.

What volume of resources does consumerism waste globally every year? This is insane, and massively damaging to our mental and physical health.

This is a bit corny, but I get to thinkin', if there is a solution, it lies in going back to community values, esprit de corps, and all that kind of stuff.

And I get to thinkin', get off the godamn hamster wheel, before it is too late.

 

[Angela Harlem]

I've thought of this community values bit before, too. And I've also thought that the old ideal of how someone would save the world is not in a superhero suit with a one significant action, but instead would revolutionise global thinking en masse and effect change.

I've made changes to my own little world, and it's small steps, but they're ongoing. My wheel is at least slowing down. I'm grateful to live nowhere near a supermarket, glad that one day the vege patch will pony up, glad that I have neighbours who can barter with me. It's not all primitive. I've got a huge tv. Too few might be willing to move their big tvs out to the sticks like I did, so I don't know where the non-superhero suit saviour is really going to effect that change. All I know is if you're not happy with the pace, then you just have to slow it down. It's not a choice.

 

[financeguy]

HA! My greatest ever post and a measly one response. What's the matter gang, shocked into silence by my brilliant ability to capture the mood of an age?

 

[indra]

HA! My greatest ever post and a measly one response. What's the matter gang, shocked into silence by my brilliant ability to capture the mood of an age?

Maybe everyone decided to sever their internet connections.

 

[financeguy]

It's the only possible explanation.

 

[coolian2]

I've thought of this community values bit before, too. And I've also thought that the old ideal of how someone would save the world is not in a superhero suit with a one significant action, but instead would revolutionise global thinking en masse and effect change.

I've made changes to my own little world, and it's small steps, but they're ongoing. My wheel is at least slowing down. I'm grateful to live nowhere near a supermarket, glad that one day the vege patch will pony up, glad that I have neighbours who can barter with me. It's not all primitive. I've got a huge tv. Too few might be willing to move their big tvs out to the sticks like I did, so I don't know where the non-superhero suit saviour is really going to effect that change. All I know is if you're not happy with the pace, then you just have to slow it down. It's not a choice.

do you need a flavourwave?

 

[yolland]

Maybe everyone decided to sever their internet connections.

Also, this might not be the best forum for this topic. ZC is generally for more strictly personal issues.

What's the connection between making do with less and 'community values'? I'm not sure they automatically go together.

 

[VintagePunk]

What's the connection between making do with less and 'community values'? I'm not sure they automatically go together.

Maybe it's a precarious connection, but I think (and maybe what financeguy was getting at, he can correct me if I'm wrong) that stereotypically, wanting more, striving for those material possessions, making that a focus of your life, lends itself to those types who work longer and harder to get those things, leaving them with less time, and perhaps once it's become an ingrained way of life, less inclination to be plugged in to their communities.

Interesting topic for discussion, financeguy.

 

[Bonoa]

The end of innocence?? Then return to innocence!

YouTube - Enigma - Return to innocence

 

[redhotswami]

i'm gonna be 6 figures in debt in 4 more years. i'm certainly not helping the situation.

 

[Bonoa]

i'm gonna be 6 figures in debt in 4 more years. i'm certainly not helping the situation.

A lot of things can happen in 4 years. Maybe it sounds hollow what I'm going to say and I know it's going to be hard, but whatever happens...Stay positive!

 

[hiphop]

All this of which shows how completely insane a global system was that relied on the populace enslaving themselves to huge piles of debt in order to buy tons of shiny pointless crap.

What volume of resources does consumerism waste globally every year? This is insane, and massively damaging to our mental and physical health.

Folks only realize how insane the system is when it collapses. Most people haven´t even realized how much they are going to pay with all the bailouts going on.

Consumerism is a substitute for love.

 

[hiphop]

Also think the thread title is cynical. The end of innocence? When were we innocent?

 

[ybab gnuthca]

it's time for some massive public spending again.

 

[pgv]

Folks only realize how insane the system is when it collapses. Most people haven´t even realized how much they are going to pay with all the bailouts going on.

Consumerism is a substitute for love.

Or a substitute for a reliance on something, giving one's self up to something bigger (ergo organised religion, which we're having less and less of in the West now... not that that's ever a bad thing...)

And I agree with your comment on innocence - I think that while this thread is both right and wrong, there's a bit of a 'rose tinted glasses' thing going on here.

 

[UberBeaver]

HA! My greatest ever post and a measly one response. What's the matter gang, shocked into silence by my brilliant ability to capture the mood of an age?

I think the confusion is caused by the fact that in the States punter = Kicker on a football (American) team. I would imagine trying to figure out how 60 some odd kickers caused the global recession is taking a hell of a lot more time than most expected it to. Give them a few more days.

 

[financeguy]

Also think the thread title is cynical. The end of innocence? When were we innocent?

And I agree with your comment on innocence - I think that while this thread is both right and wrong, there's a bit of a 'rose tinted glasses' thing going on here.

I was listening to a Don Henley song called 'End of the Innocence'. Lyrics about the tired old man that we elected king, etc. I assume the lyric was intended to refer to Reagan. But the tired old man that we elected king could be also seen as neo-liberalism/consumerism/free market fundamentalism.


Innocence, based on a view of how things work that is delusional, is not a good thing, as such the end of such an innocence can been seen as a positive development.

 

[melon]

Well, the biggest tragedy, I'd argue, is that we lulled ourselves into thinking we had achieved "The End of History" following the end of the Cold War. As such, not only did we think we had defeated the Soviet Union, but we thought we had achieved the ultimate realization of capitalism, democracy, and the Pax Americana.

"The End of Innocence" can truly be summed up as the end of naïveté. Civilization requires constant vigilence and maintenance, and there is probably never going to be an end to life's struggles. Instead, with the right level of competence, we can rise up to the challenges before us and work to fix them as they happen. The solutions we create today may very well lead to the challenges of tomorrow, and the best we can do is be prepared to solve them as they happen.

 

[financeguy]

^ Yeah, that's more or less what I'm trying to get across.

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

1 Corinthians 13

 

[purpleoscar]

"The unexamined life is not worth living." ~ Socrates

"He who does not remember the past is condemned to repeat it." ~ Santayana

We have to look at our conditioned habits, decide what goals are really important to us, and develop new habits to attain those goals, otherwise nothing will change.

To me health, good relationships, and enough money are what's needed for a content life. Anything that people can personally pursue towards those goals is worthy. Also not taking for granted what we do have is a huge part of contentment.

 

[financeguy]

To me health, good relationships, and enough money are what's needed for a content life. Anything that people can personally pursue towards those goals is worthy.

Well, I like the Socrates quote, but no offense, what you've said here comes across as a bit, uhm, narrow from my perspective....but whatever works for you.

 

[purpleoscar]

Well, I like the Socrates quote, but no offense, what you've said here comes across as a bit, uhm, narrow from my perspective....but whatever works for you.

Well I'm at the point now that it's easy to criticize politics, economics and surf the net for news stories to jabber about but there is much I have to do in own my life before I can say I have a lot of experience and facing my own habits is daunting in of itself. Also people tend to complain about health, relationships and money A LOT. As long as people are aiming for some basic health and have good friendships and marriages/partnerships plus enough money to live comfortably enough that would be more peaceful than many people can achieve around the world.

Of course those who have particular gifts that go beyond their basic self-interest like (inventions/astronauts/cure disease/heroes). Those people are a small percentage of the population but everyone else thanks them for what they do.

Just curious can you elaborate on "community values" and what you feel is missing?

 

[financeguy]

Of course those who have particular gifts that go beyond their basic self-interest like (inventions/astronauts/cure disease/heroes). Those people are a small percentage of the population but everyone else thanks them for what they do.

My gift is none of those things, but seeing connections that most people maybe don't. Seeing patterns within numbers, I suppose, is the starting point, and then broadening that out into other fields.

Just curious can you elaborate on "community values" and what you feel is missing?

I don't necessarily feel anything is missing. I am just predicting what I view as likely to happen.

 

[purpleoscar]

Civilization requires constant vigilence and maintenance, and there is probably never going to be an end to life's struggles.

That is pretty axiomatic to me. There was lots of wealth in the west (and there still is) but the public didn't know what to do with it. Lots of people chose hedonism and with bombardment of commercials in parcel with "keeping up with the Joneses" envy, it became an exhausting and unfullfilling pursuit.

Now helping others can be a good feeling but even that has become as glib as could possibly be since lots of charity is just an excuse for advertising and networking. There's a loneliness in society but at the same time a need to get independent of people who bully and try to humiliate us. It's hard to connect with people in a real way that doesn't involve short-term self-interest. I think narcissism is the biggest fight we have in this civilization. People in the market/government/relationships are trying to pass the buck at all times in all areas (including relationships). This leads to cynicism which becomes contagious for those who aren't 'vigilant' enough to buck the trend. People lack an inner peace and focus.

I like Aristotle's discussion of friendship in "Ethics". It sums up the loneliness people feel and the individual work we need to do if we can expect anything in turn:

There are therefore three kinds of friendship, equal in number to the things that are lovable; for with respect to each there is a mutual and recognized love, and those who love each other wish well to each other in that respect in which they love one another. Now those who love each other for their utility do not love each other for themselves but in virtue of some good which they get from each other. So too with those who love for the sake of pleasure; it is not for their character that men love ready-witted people, but because they find them pleasant. Therefore those who love for the sake of utility love for the sake of what is good for themselves, and those who love for the sake of pleasure do so for the sake of what is pleasant to themselves, and not in so far as the other is the person loved but in so far as he is useful or pleasant. And thus these friendships are only incidental; for it is not as being the man he is that the loved person is loved, but as providing some good or pleasure. Such friendships, then, are easily dissolved, if the parties do not remain like themselves; for if the one party is no longer pleasant or useful the other ceases to love him.

Now the useful is not permanent but is always changing. Thus when the motive of the friendship is done away, the friendship is dissolved, inasmuch as it existed only for the ends in question. This kind of friendship seems to exist chiefly between old people (for at that age people pursue not the pleasant but the useful) and, of those who are in their prime or young, between those who pursue utility. And such people do not live much with each other either; for sometimes they do not even find each other pleasant; therefore they do not need such companionship unless they are useful to each other; for they are pleasant to each other only in so far as they rouse in each other hopes of something good to come. Among such friendships people also class the friendship of a host and guest. On the other hand the friendship of young people seems to aim at pleasure; for they live under the guidance of emotion, and pursue above all what is pleasant to themselves and what is immediately before them; but with increasing age their pleasures become different. This is why they quickly become friends and quickly cease to be so; their friendship changes with the object that is found pleasant, and such pleasure alters quickly. Young people are amorous too; for the greater part of the friendship of love depends on emotion and aims at pleasure; this is why they fall in love and quickly fall out of love, changing often within a single day. But these people do wish to spend their days and lives together; for it is thus that they attain the purpose of their friendship.

Perfect friendship is the friendship of men who are good, and alike in virtue; for these wish well alike to each other qua good, and they are good themselves. Now those who wish well to their friends for their sake are most truly friends; for they do this by reason of own nature and not incidentally; therefore their friendship lasts as long as they are good-and goodness is an enduring thing. And each is good without qualification and to his friend, for the good are both good without qualification and useful to each other. So too they are pleasant; for the good are pleasant both without qualification and to each other, since to each his own activities and others like them are pleasurable, and the actions of the good are the same or like. And such a friendship is as might be expected permanent, since there meet in it all the qualities that friends should have. For all friendship is for the sake of good or of pleasure-good or pleasure either in the abstract or such as will be enjoyed by him who has the friendly feeling-and is based on a certain resemblance; and to a friendship of good men all the qualities we have named belong in virtue of the nature of the friends themselves; for in the case of this kind of friendship the other qualities also are alike in both friends, and that which is good without qualification is also without qualification pleasant, and these are the most lovable qualities. Love and friendship therefore are found most and in their best form between such men.

But it is natural that such friendships should be infrequent; for such men are rare. Further, such friendship requires time and familiarity; as the proverb says, men cannot know each other till they have 'eaten salt together'; nor can they admit each other to friendship or be friends till each has been found lovable and been trusted by each. Those who quickly show the marks of friendship to each other wish to be friends, but are not friends unless they both are lovable and know the fact; for a wish for friendship may arise quickly, but friendship does not.

The last paragraph is the rub. We have to improve our 'lovability' (in the Platonic sense of course), so we can attract people but they have to do a similiar effort on their part or else it's a lower level friendship of short-term self-interest that won't last long. We have to change ourselves first to lead the way.

 

[financeguy]

That is pretty axiomatic to me. There was lots of wealth in the west (and there still is) but the public didn't know what to do with it. Lots of people chose hedonism and with bombardment of commercials in parcel with "keeping up with the Joneses" envy, it became an exhausting and unfullfilling pursuit.

Now helping others can be a good feeling but even that has become as glib as could possibly be since lots of charity is just an excuse for advertising and networking. There's a loneliness in society but at the same time a need to get independent of people who bully and try to humiliate us. It's hard to connect with people in a real way that doesn't involve short-term self-interest. I think narcissism is the biggest fight we have in this civilization. People in the market/government/relationships are trying to pass the buck at all times in all areas (including relationships). This leads to cynicism which becomes contagious for those who aren't 'vigilant' enough to buck the trend. People lack an inner peace and focus.

So is it the the system that is the problem, or the people?

 

[purpleoscar]

So is it the the system that is the problem, or the people?

I'm coming down to people. They are the basic unit of society. If you look at the overspending under Bush many of the health care and education spending dollars were popular. Wage and price controls were popular under Nixon. The public is still demanding more spending now despite being irritated at higher taxes. Many conservatives don't save money, don't have virtuous lifestyles and so whatever standards they expect from others they don't lead by example. Liberals point that out at every opportunity. Then liberals say that conservative standards are not realistic and natural so they shouldn't be judgmental. Yet we know that all people discern what is good at some point. Many in the Republican party want to move left because they see their political careers having more opportunities if they align with the public opinion, which makes sense in a democracy. If you don't get elected then no political job for yourself and cronies.

The libertarian argument that people are rational and can make decisions for themselves gets strained when people choose to take drugs (even when they know they are unhealthy), make emotional impulsive decisions with their money and relationships. Without virtue and self-discipline the public gets entitled and spoiled. Until we as individuals get fed up with ourselves and clean our own house it will be hard to lead by example. Liberals like to point out that many people are wardens of the state and need help and many people make bad decisions in their lives which includes lawyer, and social worker involvements. For there to be more freedom the larger public (that is reasonably healthy and sane) has to demand more freedom because they know they can handle the responsibility.

Montesquieu had an interesting view of how democracies can fall:

Democracies can be corrupted in two ways: by what Montesquieu calls "the spirit of inequality" and "the spirit of extreme equality". The spirit of inequality arises when citizens no longer identify their interests with the interests of their country, and therefore seek both to advance their own private interests at the expense of their fellow citizens, and to acquire political power over them. The spirit of extreme equality arises when the people are no longer content to be equal as citizens, but want to be equal in every respect. In a functioning democracy, the people choose magistrates to exercise executive power, and they respect and obey the magistrates they have chosen. If those magistrates forfeit their respect, they replace them. When the spirit of extreme equality takes root, however, the citizens neither respect nor obey any magistrate. They "want to manage everything themselves, to debate for the senate, to execute for the magistrate, and to decide for the judges". Eventually the government will cease to function, the last remnants of virtue will disappear, and democracy will be replaced by despotism.

It's something to think about. Are people basing their decisions in life on envy or do they actually have real virtuous goals they are aiming for themselves? The overeating, overspending, avatar lifestyles on the internet, and narcissistic relationships keep pointing in the same direction. We have to face all kinds of personal challenges in order preserve this freedom we ideally want.

 

[anitram]

Are people basing their decisions in life on envy or do they actually have real virtuous goals they are aiming for themselves?

The vast majority of people on this planet have neither the luxury nor the time to think about such theoretical things. They are basing their decision mostly on a desire to live to see another day.

But in these discussions, the vast majority is seemingly never relevant.

 

[purpleoscar]

But in these discussions, the vast majority is seemingly never relevant.

Sorry did you post in the wrong thread? This thread is about delusion and personal goals and how it connects with the rest of society. Most people on this site are from the west. Post about western liberal guilt elsewhere.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Well, I like the Socrates quote, but no offense, what you've said here comes across as a bit, uhm, narrow from my perspective....but whatever works for you.

I'll agree on the Socrates quote, I don't agree about community values, but I would venture that caring about what one does matters.

 

[financeguy]

The vast majority of people on this planet have neither the luxury nor the time to think about such theoretical things. They are basing their decision mostly on a desire to live to see another day.

But in these discussions, the vast majority is seemingly never relevant.

Well, seeing as Socrates was mentioned earlier, the ancient Greek and Roman philosophers lived in conditions we would consider abject poverty. As do various Indian mystics, to this day.