My Heritage/Nationality

[U2Girl1978]

nm. I cannot read lately. holy hell!

 

[ylimeU2]

Did she say that she was born in the Netherlands? Did she say that she had a Dutch passport? Did she say that she has lived there? Did she say that she speaks Dutch regularly? No.

Ageeth, care to spell out in your own words what exactly you think "Dutch the way she thinks she is" amounts to?

And more to the point, why it matters?

I think plenty of people here have already spelled it out. There is a difference between a heritage and a nationality. If you do not live in a country, you were not born there, you have never been there, you do not speak the language (or very little of it) you are not qualified, in my opinion to be claiming that as a nationality. It is your heritage and, if someone chooses it to be so, their culture.

And I can understand why it matters to Ageeth to have someone say they are more Dutch than the Dutch.

 

[bammo2]

but why would you consider Em to be german?

being a certain nationality is a lot more than having ancestors that come from there. It's being part of a nation, being part of that community, that political system etc.

Sure, if your family comes from a country, you have a heritage descended from there, and that's great. But I don't truly see how you can claim to be Dutch, German, Swedish, Turkish, Outer Mongolian unless you are living in that country, breathing that air, voting for their leaders, paying their taxes and contributing to the way that country evolves and devlops

 

[LarryMullen's POPAngel]

So, just because I've never been to Italy or Hungary, I'm fake Italian/Hungarian? It matters not one iota that my parents parents parent's, etc. were from the old country? And wow, I don't have a passport, either. Damn, I'm such a poseur.

What in hell does it matter at this point? The same select group is still going to keep at it, so why don't we all just agree to disagree and move on. This is ridiculous.

 

[Ageeth]

You are obviously not reading her post correctly.

ah that should be because i am dutch

 

[ylimeU2]

I would consider you German.

Why? Even though you are an American, you have German heritage.

I'm from Italian and German heritage.

You've just said it yourself. I am an American. I have a German heritage. There is a difference.

Other than the first part, saying you would consider me to be German, that is. And I don't consider myself German. Neither does my family in Germany. I'm an American to them.

 

[yolland]

And I can understand why it matters to Ageeth to have someone say they are more Dutch than the Dutch.

Fair enough.

 

[WildHoneyAlways]

But I don't truly see how you can claim to be Dutch, German, Swedish, Turkish, Outer Mongolian unless you are living in that country, breathing that air, voting for their leaders, paying their taxes and contributing to the way that country evolves and devlops

But to be fair there are plenty of people who are who live and breath air of countries who don't do any of the things you've posted.

New rule: Let's not tell each other what we are or are not.

 

[U2Girl1978]

ah that should be because i am dutch

Well you're making it into some sort of nationality issue and that isn't what I meant.

 

[U2Girl1978]

You've just said it yourself. I am an American. I have a German heritage. There is a difference.

Other than the first part, saying you would consider me to be German, that is. And I don't consider myself German. Neither does my family in Germany. I'm an American to them.

Well, I consider myself German and Italian. I don't see why it matters. This thread is just going in one big circle anyways and everyone is arguing over this. I really don't want to fight about it.

 

[bammo2]

But to be fair there are plenty of people who are who live and breath air of countries who don't do any of the things you've posted.

New rule: Let's not tell each other what we are or are not.

Fair enough, I realise I made my point badly.

I was trying to say that there is a massive difference between culture, heritage and nationality. I don't understand how you can be a certain nationality when you have never been to the country in question. that is having a heritage, not a nationality.

Fair enough if you're claiming a heritage. but when you say you are Dutch, or German, that is claiming a nationality

 

[bammo2]

*edit - posting spasm *

 

[clarityat3am]

Agreeing to disagree sounds like a good idea for this.

 

[ylimeU2]

Well you're making it into some sort of nationality issue and that isn't what I meant.

Can't you see this is the point? Ageeth's nationality is Dutch. LivLuv's heritage is Dutch. There is a difference.

 

[MissVelvetDress_75]

Interesting thread and debate.

Yesterday after class one of my professors asked me what the origin of my last name is. So I told him.

My blood like many people born and raised in the US is a mixture from many places from around the world and I love that it is unique and am also proud of it. I am also an American and have no problem saying that.

 

[lmjhitman]

i'm finding this to be a very interesting discussion. how do we define ourselves nationality-wise? culturally? ethnically? residentially?

i was born in germany and my parents and i came to canada when i was a baby. i was raised canadian. my parents are from india, however. i do not speak either of their native languages and i have only been to india once when i was a child on a family vacation. i do enjoy indian food. i have a canadian passport that says i was born in germany and that i'm a canadian citizen. i also love hockey. i cheer for canada during the olympics. i would find it strange to live anywhere that doesn't have winter. and i say 'eh'.

when someone asks me what i am, i would like to be able to say 'canadian' and be done with it. but the fact is, they look at my brown skin and i have to qualify my answer by saying that my parents are from india. only then do they feel their question is answered.

but it doesn't ring true to me. i don't feel indian - i'm the least indian person i know. but people aren't satisfied with hearing that i'm just canadian.

i'm not sure what this adds, if anything, to the discussion. i just thought i'd add a non-caucasian perspective.

 

[U2Girl1978]

Can't you see this is the point? Ageeth's nationality is Dutch. LivLuv's heritage is Dutch. There is a difference.

Did you see what I wrote to him and his response?

I understand the difference.

 

[bammo2]

Ageeth is a woman. It's a Dutch name

 

[yolland]

bammo, i realize you've updated since I wrote this but I think (I hope!) the point still applies.

Sure, if your family comes from a country, you have a heritage descended from there, and that's great. But I don't truly see how you can claim to be Dutch, German, Swedish, Turkish, Outer Mongolian unless you are living in that country, breathing that air, voting for their leaders, paying their taxes and contributing to the way that country evolves and devlops

I understand what you are saying, but for better or for worse we just don't generally frame those distinctions in quite the same way over here. What we mean by (e.g.) "I'm Dutch" is in fact much closer to what you are classifying under "heritage." And again, it is not an alternative identity to being American (our nationality); it is a supplemental one.

Now there are some very long-established, very close-knit, strictly intermarrying ethnic groups here that identify more closely than most Whatever-Americans would with their ancestors' home country, and I gather that LivLuv is from one of these. So there may be some additional nuances above and beyond mainstream American ideas of ethnic identity there. I can't really speak to that. But I just don't see why there has to be some agreed-upon international standard for how collective identities are measured and defined. It's not like we're expecting automatic dual citizenship for it or something.

 

[ylimeU2]

Fair enough if you're claiming a heritage. but when you say you are Dutch, or German, that is claiming a nationality [/B]

And I'm done. Bammo said it as plain as can be.

 

[U2Girl1978]

Ageeth is a woman. It's a Dutch name

oops! Sorry about that.

 

[bammo2]

^ I still think that there's a difference between a cultural identity, an ancestory, and a nationality

 

[bammo2]

sorry, I should have quoted. I was replying to yolland

 

[U2Girl1978]

This thread is very informative by the way(even though it is a bit frustrating).

 

[bammo2]

I understand what you are saying, but for better or for worse we just don't generally frame those distinctions in quite the same way over here. What we mean by (e.g.) "I'm Dutch" is in fact much closer to what you are classifying under "heritage." And again, it is not an alternative identity to being American (our nationality); it is a supplemental one.

It's not like we're expecting automatic dual citizenship for it or something.

But do you see that it is almost offensive to say to a Dutch person that, despite never having been to The Netherlands, that you are Dutch and, in fact, more Dutch than the Dutch themselves

 

[Sicy]

I would never claim to be more Italian than Italians that born, raised and live in Italy.. I guess I did not read where Leis said that.

 

[ylimeU2]

i'm finding this to be a very interesting discussion. how do we define ourselves nationality-wise? culturally? ethnically? residentially?

i was born in germany and my parents and i came to canada when i was a baby. i was raised canadian. my parents are from india, however. i do not speak either of their native languages and i have only been to india once when i was a child on a family vacation. i do enjoy indian food. i have a canadian passport that says i was born in germany and that i'm a canadian citizen. i also love hockey. i cheer for canada during the olympics. i would find it strange to live anywhere that doesn't have winter. and i say 'eh'.

when someone asks me what i am, i would like to be able to say 'canadian' and be done with it. but the fact is, they look at my brown skin and i have to qualify my answer by saying that my parents are from india. only then do they feel their question is answered.

but it doesn't ring true to me. i don't feel indian - i'm the least indian person i know. but people aren't satisfied with hearing that i'm just canadian.

i'm not sure what this adds, if anything, to the discussion. i just thought i'd add a non-caucasian perspective.

I think it adds to the discussion.

There is a lot of confusion about the differences in these terms. I don't think it's fair that you have to explain that you're nationailty is Canadian if someone asks or why you identify yourself that way because your skin is darker. If they want to know that, they should ask about your heritage.

 

[LarryMullen's POPAngel]

I would never claim to be more Italian than Italians that born, raised and live in Italy.. I guess I did not read where Leis said that.

Same here. I don't think I caught that part, either.

 

[U2Girl1978]

Maybe she said it tongue in cheek. Everyone has a different sense of humor.

 

[Miroslava]

I did catch that part, but the way I understood it was that in pure "blood" terms, she's 100% Dutch as far back as the 1600s which probably makes her more "Dutch than the Dutch" living there in that maybe most people cannot claim that indiluted blood lineage. I didn't think any claims were being made as to her acting, behaving or being more Dutch otherwise... I can however see how an "actual" Dutch person might take offense to that and can respect it but things have gotten out of hand here.

The whole of interf. is today. Is it a full moon?