Confidence in Faith

[WCF]

This is a question I've been struggling with for many months. I'm not just asking this to Christians, but to anyone of any faith. I don't know if it's too heavy a topic for this forum, but there are some pretty mature people here, and it says Zoo Confessionals at the top so here goes.

A little background first of all. My family is not a very "religious" one. My parents are supposedly Buddhist and my siblings are either agnostic or atheist. Because of this and the fact that I'm only 15, I don't attend a church or anything like that. I used to be a pretty confident Atheist, but I've been persuaded to convert to Christianity by both myself and friends, for various reasons.

I thought I would be much happier being a Christian. I would have God guiding me and a future to look forward to. But all it really does is confuse me. I am very uncertain of this faith. How can anyone be so certain everything promised is true?

I'm bombarded by messages like "You just have to have faith!" Maybe it's easier for others who were raised in a devoted family, but I've been an atheist for the majority of my life. I can't just toss away all the beliefs I previously had. Logic is my biggest obstacle. What about evolution? Is a book written 2,000 years ago by humans really a more reliable source than science? What's with all the crazy stories in the Bible? An ark big enough to carry a male and female of each and every species on Earth built by one person? There's a lot more, but there's the big one, how do I know a God even exists? How do I know it wasn't something made up by man as a purpose for existence or an explanation for the unknown?

It's not even logic that gets in the way of believing, but there's the whole right and wrong stuff too. How can such a terrible place like hell be allowed to exist? Perfectly decent people of other religions supposedly get sent there, a fate I don't think even Hitler deserved. I'm sure an all-powerful God could see there was something terribly wrong here and do something about it. Also, just looking at a girl and thinking she is hot is bad? I'm sure that is exaggerated, because I don't know anyone capable of this and am pretty sure no one else does either. It's just the natural way the world works to be attracted to the opposite sex (or whatever), what's the big deal? I've had Christian friends tell me to refrain from lust. They of course are not immune to it themselves, and beat themselves up when it happens. Why should I have to go through that? I believe it's fine as long as I'm not hurting anyone, including myself. But that's not what everyone else says, and I feel like I'm constantly sinning.

I apologize for this post being such a big, messy rant. They're all some examples of things that make me doubt. I know it all may seem pretty blasphemous, but it's just I really want answers. I could have taken the easy way out and go back to atheism, and I've thought about it, but that's not what I think is best for me. I hate to straddle the fence and say I'm Christian, but then say I'm not sure God exists. What makes a person Christian in the first place? I'd like to know how do you guys do it? Even if your not a Christian, but of any other religion, how can you confidently say you believe in what you believe in?

 

[JanuaryStar]

WCF, first of all, this post is not a big messy rant. I know exactly how you are feeling. I read you're 15 years old, a difficult age to be thinking about things like this. But I'm glad that you do, it shows that you think about your life in a serious way, and that's something I know a lot of people of your age don't do.

Okay, so my opinion in this? You say that you think that when people grow up in a more devoted family, things would be easier. They're not. I've grown up in a christian family (although not very religious, I have to admit this), and know a lot of people who have grown up in more devoted christian families. They've all been struggling with the same issues. So have I. Faith is a difficult thing, a lot of people cling to it or strongly believe in it because they think it will be a guiding light for their lives. Of course, this is true for a lot of people, but only when they truly believe in it and feel good about it. If you constantly keep asking yourself if you're a sinner when it comes to normal things in life (aka lust or other things), don't you think this might not be the right way for you? I mean, I'm not saying you should become an atheist again, because if you feel christianity is right for you, then you should stick to this. But maybe you should look a little deeper into your faith. Maybe you can be a christian without having those 'strong' principals that your friends seem to have. If there is a God out there, I'm sure he/she/it will love you, even when you have feelings of lust or other things that you see as 'bad'.

What I'm saying is you can believe (in christianity, buddhism, hinduism, islam, anything!) but you have to find the right way for yourself. If it's something which makes you feel bad instead of good, then you might change the way you look at things. This is difficult, I know that, especially at that age. Heck, I'm 19 and I sometimes still struggle with questions you have. Just find a little peace for yourself, is all I'm saying. It's better than to walk around all day feeling like you're a constant sinner.

As for how I feel about it, I think there shouldn't be people who tell you 'what to do'. I think that's something you should find out for yourself, as difficult as that may seem.

I hope you don't have the feeling my post is a 'messy rant'. I just wish you good luck in finding your 'way'. Just do whatever feels right for you, not because you feel you 'have' to do it or because others tell you to. And what if it takes a little longer for you to find this 'right way' for yourself? It means you're thinking about it seriously and that's good.

 

[Galeongirl]

wow man, you sound like me when I was 15! I had the same confusion!

I was raised protestant, but not heavily religious... went to a protestant primary school, but I never found it particulary interesting, and when my mom gave me the choice to stop going to church, my choice was made in a second.

I don't believe in God, but I can understand why people do; it gives you hope. I've had some big discussions with christians who tried to convince me that God was all good and such, but the more I listened to them, the more I found out how incredibly paradoxal the bible is. Many things in the bible are sort of explanations for things that couldn't be explained a long time ago, but today we know so much more trough science and technology. It's just too hard to believe for me that one person can have possibly done this all by himself...

You said you wanted to believe because you would be much happier.. to me, that sounds like you just want to be happy, and think God is a way to achieve that. While I'm not saying believing can't help you become happy, I do think that it's something you should find out by yourself, find out what makes you happy, what way of leading your life makes you happy.. that kinda stuff!
You should not believe for the sake of believing, but if you think you really believe this stuff, go for it! Just don't fool yourself if you don't and try to... you either believe or you don't, and the only person who can truly judge that for you is yourself..

While I do not believe, I do believe there's a lot of stuff we don't know about, and there might be more between heaven and earth, I just don't know what, and am happy not knowing this... Some stuff we're just not supposed to know I guess, or time will teach us...

 

[redhotswami]

WCF you've certainly posed some interesting questions. However, I think the best response I can offer you is that there is no "one" way to be a Christian. It sounds like your Christian friends are very literal in interpretation of the Bible...which is loaded with contradictions. Once piece of advice I can give is that God is bigger than the Bible.

Why do they think lusting is a sin? Is it because it explicity says so in the text? What is really the big picture here? What is the true sin, just lusting after somebody, or is it something more underneath that? You know that Constantine put the Bible together, using only selected texts that worked well within the confines of his rule. There are many other gnostic gospels that are out there which were omitted from the Bible. You know, one interpretation of the word "sin" from the original language Jesus spoke is "unripe." That puts a whole new spin on things, doesn't it? What if, one day, the entire Bible, was proven to be false, by historians, or even Christians. Would you then have faith?

I would. Because my understanding is not limited to a book. And I think that sets me off from other Christian faiths. Now, that isn't to say that I don't read it, because I do. But my Faith stems from something different. My Faith comes through my own close personal relationship with God, which transcends anything written in a book that was created by man 2000 years ago.

And I would argue that faith and a relationship with God isn't for the strong-willed. I cling to God out of desparation. Right now...I am at a distance. I cut myself from God and have been without that relationship for quite some time now. However, recent events have revealed to me my weaknesses. Why would somebody need God if they are perfect? I'm certainly not. Now more than ever I see that I really am an incompetent person, I'm also vulnerable, flawed in many ways, and full of contradictions. God is the only one who really truly loves me for all that I am, and all that I am not. Where I fall short on things in life, that is when I need to just accept that there are some things that I simply cannot do, I am human afterall, and let the nonhuman higher being take over, because I have seen God meet me at my shortcomings.

I hope that made some sense? I urge you to continue puzzling over these questions and keep searching for answers. Don't ever settle. Life is a journey, a process where we get to learn more about ourselves from the world around us. Keep it up!

 

[A_Wanderer]

I can't really give any advice as a person of faith but I can speak from a position of unbelief. I don't think that there is any God or supernatural powers in the universe because everything around us has real world explanations, I think that if you are looking for an understanding of why things happen then you should follow your logic and study science. There is so much complexity and diversity, which to our minds seems beautiful, in the natural world that I feel gets cheapened if we ascribe it all to a creator. Now elegant explanations such as evolution which can be tested and verified and which can rationally explain what we see, they are actually useful and valuable; worthy answers to deserving questions.

But it seems your concern is not with biblical literalism versus reality - which is good regardless of which belief or lack thereof you pursue since a reasonable mind should be open to new ideas - but in the uncertainty of faith. By definition faith is accepting a concept that cannot be tested, proved or disproved and it must be practiced with very little to no evidence. The suspension of disbelief is the trick and I personally can't do it and have never been able to, for the life of me I don't see how that ability is an article of pride for so many as if being able to believe in something even though theres no reason to is a good thing. Just because you can't accomplish that mental trick as well as your peers doesn't make you weak or a worse person.

As far as religious attitudes towards basic human needs such as sex it seems to be a common thread. Because we are hard wired to be attracted to other individuals (except for those who aren't - which does exist) we can be turned on. It's not a sin, it is a basic biological function which in many cases leads to procreation. Morally can you see the harm in consensual sex between two individuals? Or fooling around? Or kissing? Or holding hands? Or looking at a girl and feeling good? I certainly can't and im not out there hurting people.

How we act towards eachother, our morality if you will, is not something given to us from God. In many cases it is human behaviour resulting from how our brains work, and how our brains work is a product of our genes and development which has resulted from differential reproductive successs and natural selection in populations of homonids where things like looking out for other members of the tribe or empathising and making social connections were advantageous. You as an individual shouldn't be made to feel guilty for thinking regular thoughts or doing things that don't hurt other people; and if you consensually do something along those lines with somebody else then you shouldn't feel guilty about that either.

I don't think theres a big security camera in the sky ready to punish us unless we supress these parts of our humanity, if you try and lead a life without going out to hurt other people you'll probably get by pretty well. And if you do right because you think that it is the proper thing to do and not because your afraid of being punished by God then does that make you a better or a worse person?

Nobody else can give you the answers, you have to make your own choices about what to believe, but don't make the mistake of doing it to fit in or ingratiate yourself with your peers. Go with what you know, and if you don't know then get out and learn.

I would definitely suggest Stephen Jay Gould's "Rocks of Ages" on the relationship of science and religion not being opposed because they don't actually cover the same issues, I think that is a very important thing for any believer to understand and being of a decidedly more scientific mind my own considerations on morality are not because scientific evidence tells me that something is good or bad morally but because my own hodge-podge philosohy with ideas of the harm principle, social contract and individualism would conclude how it harms others.

 

[JanuaryStar]

A_Wanderer, just out of curiousity, you attribute everything that happens on this earth to science and logic?

 

[A_Wanderer]

I think that everything that happens is the product of interactions of matter and energy acting under the constraints of the universes physical laws. Of course the effectively infinite number of interactions and the incomprehensible complexity means that we could never even hope to reduce our explanations of everything down to that level. But everything that happens has a reason (as in a physical cause - e.g. gravitational attraction of a molecular cloud eventually leading to nuclear fusion and a star) and even if human beings never exsted to observe them these things would still happen naturally.

I also have a problem with taking aspects of the human condition (although some may exist in other animals) such as euphoria and happiness and using that as evidence of God. I mean I could get a spritual experience from psilocybin mushrooms but it doesn't make it anything more than processes inside my brain.

I suppose that I am strictly speaking a materialist with atheism being a concequence of not having any reason to assume the existence of God. If we discovered a proof of God somehow (generally not the claims of semitic tribes several millenia ago) then I would want to explain how such an entity operated in this universe or outside it

 

[JanuaryStar]

I think that everything that happens is the product of interactions of matter and energy acting under the constraints of the universes physical laws. Of course the effectively infinite number of interactions and the incomprehensible complexity means that we could never even hope to reduce our explanations of everything down to that level. But everything that happens has a reason (as in a physical cause - e.g. gravitational attraction of a molecular cloud eventually leading to nuclear fusion and a star) and even if human beings never exsted to observe them these things would still happen naturally.

I also have a problem with taking aspects of the human condition (although some may exist in other animals) such as euphoria and happiness and using that as evidence of God. I mean I could get a spritual experience from psilocybin mushrooms but it doesn't make it anything more than processes inside my brain.

I suppose that I am strictly speaking a materialist with atheism being a concequence of not having any reason to assume the existence of God. If we discovered a proof of God somehow (generally not the claims of semitic tribes several millenia ago) then I would want to explain how such an entity operated in this universe or outside it

Okay so I take it you work in the sciencesector, somehow? You deny the existence of a 'God', then you would also deny other 'entities' that would exist, like angels or forces of power or whatnot? Everything that happens, so from feelings of love and happiness to 'knowing' when someone calls you who that person is before you pick up are all to explain from the ratio... Interesting, that people think like this Not saying it's wrong, I respect your opinion, but I just don't really agree with you.

I was just curious on how you stand on this subject. My being has always had a big struggle between the ratio-side and the emotional/spiritual-side, but I think I have found a good balance.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Ah but phone pick ups are a classic case since we only remember when it's the right guess, statistically this is bound to happen at some stage and our memory biases the importance of it. If we are actually capable of precognition then it has evaded repeatable controlled experimentation. If you can prove it then you could be very rich indeed and collect the James Randi Educational Foundation One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge.

For example I knew that when I answered my phone it would be somebody about a car until the voice I heard my boss's voice. Now I will probably forget that incident but if my gut feeling had been right then I could have always remembered this proof.

As far as morality goes theres no way to quantify good or evil, it's not like we can point an aura-meter on somebody and measure how many evil points they have. All we have to go on is how our actions as individuals effect other people and how much they harm them. If we harm a lot of of people then we may be considered evil, if we help a lot of people then good, but it's not going to be tallied up after we die - and death ceases concious thought and as our soft tissues rot away there really isn't any way for thought to persist.

I find stimulation in getting the right answers, I find beauty in complexity and I suppose truth by understanding that every piece of knowledge today could be overturned in the future by something that better explains it.

But this isn't about me, so probably both should hush up.

 

[WCF]

What I'm saying is you can believe (in christianity, buddhism, hinduism, islam, anything!) but you have to find the right way for yourself. If it's something which makes you feel bad instead of good, then you might change the way you look at things. This is difficult, I know that, especially at that age. Heck, I'm 19 and I sometimes still struggle with questions you have. Just find a little peace for yourself, is all I'm saying. It's better than to walk around all day feeling like you're a constant sinner.

So not everything has to be in black and white huh? I can be a Christian and still believe in evolution? I'm sure this wouldn't make me any less of one, however what everyone's telling me here is sure different from things I've been hearing from other people. It seems most people here find their own little version of Christianity to suit their own needs. I guess it's different for everyone then, that's something to think about.

You said you wanted to believe because you would be much happier.. to me, that sounds like you just want to be happy,

I hate to say that I'm only doing this for happiness, but it's probably true. I can't fathom a world of angels and demons, I think more like A_Wanderer in terms of most everything can be solved with science(except I'm terrible at science). But is happiness really a good motive for doing this? If it's really my only motive, it just means I'm trying to deny what I believe is the truth?

 

[JanuaryStar]

So not everything has to be in black and white huh? I can be a Christian and still believe in evolution? I'm sure this wouldn't make me any less of one, however what everyone's telling me here is sure different from things I've been hearing from other people. It seems most people here find their own little version of Christianity to suit their own needs. I guess it's different for everyone then, that's something to think about.

I hate to say that I'm only doing this for happiness, but it's probably true. I can't fathom a world of angels and demons, I think more like A_Wanderer in terms of most everything can be solved with science(except I'm terrible at science). But is happiness really a good motive for doing this? If it's really my only motive, it just means I'm trying to deny what I believe is the truth?

Exactly... A lot of fundamental Christians will not agree with me on this, but I believe it's fairly possible. It's not really to suit your own 'needs', but it's to find your own little piece of happiness. To find out what gives you comfort and strength in real life. Call it something to hold on to, if you will.

About the 'only doing it for happiness' bit, what's wrong with that? I mean this world is pretty messed up as it is, so why can't you be searching for something that creates some happiness? I'm not speaking in selfish terms, because I still am a true believer in helping others and not judging others and not doing everything for your own sake, but I also believe that we cannot simply live to always serve others. So yes, find your own peace of mind in it, your own 'happiness'.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Well to that end from this happy-go-lucky materialist being happy isn't about what you believe, it's about what you do with your life. Believer or unbeliever can find happiness in family, friends, love, sex, drugs and rock and roll.

There are plenty of people who reconcile their faith with science by treating them as either non-overlapping magisteria (to borrow from Gould) where the religion informs their moral choices but the science informs their understanding of how the world operates or they view science as a means of seeing how God operates (through natural law). Personally I think once we accept natural law as the way that things work adding God as the original cause is an unnecessary addition that complicates things but it is definitely possible for people to be simultaneously religious and treat the world in a scientific manner without compromising their ability in either.

 

[Galeongirl]

So not everything has to be in black and white huh? I can be a Christian and still believe in evolution? I'm sure this wouldn't make me any less of one, however what everyone's telling me here is sure different from things I've been hearing from other people. It seems most people here find their own little version of Christianity to suit their own needs. I guess it's different for everyone then, that's something to think about.



I hate to say that I'm only doing this for happiness, but it's probably true. I can't fathom a world of angels and demons, I think more like A_Wanderer in terms of most everything can be solved with science(except I'm terrible at science). But is happiness really a good motive for doing this? If it's really my only motive, it just means I'm trying to deny what I believe is the truth?

it's not black and white at all... perhaps some hardcored christians still believe that, but that's bs these days.... you can believe in god and still believe in science! since, how could you not believe in science, while so much has been proven these days? I think the most important thing is not to listen to what others say, but listen to your own heart! Once you found out what it is you truly want, you'll find peace there, and perhaps happiness aswell...

 

[WCF]

So, to those who said it doesn't have to be in black or white, what do you think of the Bible? Specifically the crazy stuff like Noah's Ark or the world being made in 7 days. Do you think they symbolize other things, or is it something you ignore?

Wanderer I like the idea of science being the workings of God, it's kind of how I thought of it. But I have a question for you. Doesn't the thought that there is nothing, especially after death, worry you? It was something I used to be really afraid of.

Wanderer, and all of you really, I appreciate how you guys can help a guy out without shoving your own beliefs down my throat. I wouldn't have got that if I asked anywhere else. Maybe U2 fans really are the mature bunch?

 

[LemonMelon]

So, to those who said it doesn't have to be in black or white, what do you think of the Bible? Specifically the crazy stuff like Noah's Ark or the world being made in 7 days. Do you think they symbolize other things, or is it something you ignore?

Personally, I think to believe otherwise would be calling God's word untrue. (I've always thought that those looking for deeper meanings in such things as the crucifixion or the Garden of Eden are grasping for straws) You can't pick and choose your faith, or make up your own from scratch, otherwise it won't be strong enough to stand against those trying to disprove it. Besides, do you really think you could piece together a good enough religion on your own to get yourself closer to God? I don't believe such a thing is possible. There has to be something more to base it on.

Furthermore, I refuse to believe that all things are caused by chemical reactions and matter. You can't base your faith on science because science is controlled by man, who is inherently flawed. Science changes over time, which means that what you believe now could be false when you wake up in the morning. I believe that in the future there will be things that occur within the earth and the universe that science cannot explain. Man's intellect only reaches so far. Call me cynical, but momma didn't raise no fool.

Again, these are just my beliefs. They don't have to be yours, and I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with them, but I did feel like answering the question.

 

[indra]

So, to those who said it doesn't have to be in black or white, what do you think of the Bible? Specifically the crazy stuff like Noah's Ark or the world being made in 7 days. Do you think they symbolize other things, or is it something you ignore?

Wanderer I like the idea of science being the workings of God, it's kind of how I thought of it. But I have a question for you. Doesn't the thought that there is nothing, especially after death, worry you? It was something I used to be really afraid of.

I think the bible is just a book with stories meant to illustrate points its writers wanted to get across. Read various mythology -- norse, greek, egyptian, etc. Do you take those stories as literal fact? The bible is the same thing -- just a little more modern version. In time I believe it will be regarded in the same way other mythology is. (I actually like mythology. I just don't regard it as fact.)

For me the concept of there being nothing after I die doesn't bother me. Hell, I'm going to be dead so I'm not going to know anyway. The part that can be difficult emotionally is when those we know and love die. I can see where believing you will join them again someday -- or that they are somewhere good -- can be more comforting than believing that what is left of a person when he/she dies (other than possibly genes) are the memories of the people who remain. But I've never been able to believe that, even if if it might offer comfort.

 

[redhotswami]

So, to those who said it doesn't have to be in black or white, what do you think of the Bible? Specifically the crazy stuff like Noah's Ark or the world being made in 7 days. Do you think they symbolize other things, or is it something you ignore?

One important fact to keep in mind is that the bible has been translated and retranslated over the years. I think the true meaning of the text was also lost in translation. Like I said, retranslating some of the passages into Jesus' original language really brings forth an entirely new perspective.

 

[LemonMelon]

One important fact to keep in mind is that the bible has been translated and retranslated over the years. I think the true meaning of the text was also lost in translation. Like I said, retranslating some of the passages into Jesus' original language really brings forth an entirely new perspective.

This is true. I don't think it's so far off that the entire meaning of the new testament is warped, but some parts may have slightly different meanings to them.

Like, for example, did you know that the Bible encourages all who are baptized to be dipped 3 times rather than once? It's in the original Greek, but was taken out of the modern day translation. And, of course, unless you have a Greek scholar for a pastor, you're never going to hear this preached.

 

[Galeongirl]

So, to those who said it doesn't have to be in black or white, what do you think of the Bible? Specifically the crazy stuff like Noah's Ark or the world being made in 7 days. Do you think they symbolize other things, or is it something you ignore?

Wanderer I like the idea of science being the workings of God, it's kind of how I thought of it. But I have a question for you. Doesn't the thought that there is nothing, especially after death, worry you? It was something I used to be really afraid of.

Wanderer, and all of you really, I appreciate how you guys can help a guy out without shoving your own beliefs down my throat. I wouldn't have got that if I asked anywhere else. Maybe U2 fans really are the mature bunch?

About the bible I have only one opinion.... it's a book, written by people.... just like with any other book, it can be fiction or based on actual events, but usually it's a combination of both.... it's up to the reader to choose what to believe and what not...

I don't fear death... why should you? if you die, you die, not much you can do about that no?

I wouldn't be able to shove you beliefs down your throat, since I absolutely despise that myself... Whenever somebody tries to do that they are in a huge discussion with me, and I've made a jehovah cry once because he just didn't want to go away from my doorstep

People can believe what they want, but do so on your own, leave me out of it! I respect what you believe, if you respect the fact that I choose not to believe.

 

[JanuaryStar]

So, to those who said it doesn't have to be in black or white, what do you think of the Bible? Specifically the crazy stuff like Noah's Ark or the world being made in 7 days. Do you think they symbolize other things, or is it something you ignore?

Wanderer I like the idea of science being the workings of God, it's kind of how I thought of it. But I have a question for you. Doesn't the thought that there is nothing, especially after death, worry you? It was something I used to be really afraid of.

Wanderer, and all of you really, I appreciate how you guys can help a guy out without shoving your own beliefs down my throat. I wouldn't have got that if I asked anywhere else. Maybe U2 fans really are the mature bunch?

In my opinion, the Bible is a book, which has been rewritten and interpreted over and over again by different people. The real basics of it may be alright, but I think a lot of people take stories or viewpoints too literally. I think stories in the Bible symbolize fears/viewpoints/opinions from the time it was written in (and the times it was rewritten). So yeah, I think whenever you want to view the Bible as an important guideline, you still shouldn't take those points too literally. I mean we're living in 2007 now, and a lot of those viewpoints are related to past times way before us.

WCF, I think a lot of people here are just openminded. I mean people who you can't talk with because they have a 'tunnel-vision', I don't think they'd post on such forums easily. Besides, what good is there in forcing your own personal beliefs on somebody else? Isn't open-mindedness something we should all take an example from?

As for the 'after-death' thing, I do believe there is something after this life. But that's just personal, everybody can believe what he/she feels like about that.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Furthermore, I refuse to believe that all things are caused by chemical reactions and matter. You can't base your faith on science because science is controlled by man, who is inherently flawed. Science changes over time, which means that what you believe now could be false when you wake up in the morning. I believe that in the future there will be things that occur within the earth and the universe that science cannot explain. Man's intellect only reaches so far. Call me cynical, but momma didn't raise no fool.

You may feel that having a dynamic system of knowledge is a weakness but it actually means that we can get closer to understanding the way things actually work. The bible never changes and provides a revealed truth, one that is wrong in it's literal descriptions of events. The scientific method can find out new facts and incorporate them into our system of knowledge and revising our system of knowledge to incorporate new facts makes it more accurate. It's not a weakness and if human beings didn't exist then the same forces would be acting without an observer.

 

[A_Wanderer]

double post.

 

[LemonMelon]

You may feel that having a dynamic system of knowledge is a weakness but it actually means that we can get closer to understanding the way things actually work. The bible never changes and provides a revealed truth, one that is wrong in it's literal descriptions of events. The scientific method can find out new facts and incorporate them into our system of knowledge and revising our system of knowledge to incorporate new facts makes it more accurate. It's not a weakness and if human beings didn't exist then the same forces would be acting without an observer.

True, but that's just it. "Closer" is the best there is. It's never perfect. Besides, science is NOT an enemy of religion. The Bible was never meant to be the only source of knowledge on the earth, it was meant to merely be a pivot on which people who do tackle such issues can base their lives on. When it comes to moral issues, you will not be able to learn about all them from the Bible, but you can make an educated guess on what it would say based on previous stances. Beyond a few passages, the Bible never even touches on science, yet many famous scientists dating back to the renaissance have been avid believers. It's really not a challenge to see how they intersect. I don't believe in a mixture or compromise, but I am no enemy of science. I just don't think it should be treated as an alternative to spiritual advancement.

 

[Allanah]

So not everything has to be in black and white huh? I can be a Christian and still believe in evolution? I'm sure this wouldn't make me any less of one, however what everyone's telling me here is sure different from things I've been hearing from other people.

I absolutely think that you can be a Christian and believe in evolution. You can't, however, interpret the Book of Genesis literally if this is the case. I certainly don't. I struggle with faith -- a lot -- so when it comes to the Bible, I'm no expert.

How would I explain the "Earth was created in seven days" thing? Well, I don't, because I don't think it was. "Let there be light" is about as good a metaphor for the Big Bang as I've heard of in religious literature, though. For another "crazy story," let's take a familiar one: Adam and Eve. I don't think we're all descended from two people. If that's the case, I need to come up with a different interpretation for it, because the literal one isn't cutting it. Here's the best I've got:

If God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good, he's got a lot of explaining to do when it comes to the state of the world. How could he let so much evil and suffering exist? Adam and Eve's fall from grace explains that, at least for me: evil and suffering exist as a result of man's free will. The happy couple could have blissfully and ignorantly lived in the Garden of Eden for the rest of their lives as mindless servants of God. Instead, they chose to eat that apple. Result: hard work, pain, and death. (I'm oversimplifying, but whatever.)

Sure, God could have prevented Eve from eating from the Tree of Knowledge and saved humanity from a whole lot of grief and strife. But I also would think that God would want us to freely choose to do the right thing, share in His love, and other stuff that a more religious person could articulate better than I. I don't think God wants mindless servants to bend to his will because they have no other choice. Otherwise, what's the point?

Just an example and hopefully some food for thought. I trust science, but science doesn't have to kill God. Check out Galileo's testimony to the Inquisition for a really great explanation of how the two can coexist.

And I'm curious: what denomination are your Christian friends who are telling you this stuff? It sounds (and I'm only guessing) that they're of the fundamentalist persuasion if they read Genesis and the rest of it literally. Pentacostal, maybe?

 

[The Disciple]

Re: The creation story/evolution... this site has some interesting studies on it. Warning: Heavy stuff!

www.yadayahweh.com

 

[A_Wanderer]

So, to those who said it doesn't have to be in black or white, what do you think of the Bible? Specifically the crazy stuff like Noah's Ark or the world being made in 7 days. Do you think they symbolize other things, or is it something you ignore?

Wanderer I like the idea of science being the workings of God, it's kind of how I thought of it. But I have a question for you. Doesn't the thought that there is nothing, especially after death, worry you? It was something I used to be really afraid of.

Wanderer, and all of you really, I appreciate how you guys can help a guy out without shoving your own beliefs down my throat. I wouldn't have got that if I asked anywhere else. Maybe U2 fans really are the mature bunch?

For me a concious mind is self, I could loose a limb and I would still be me but when the information and the way that the information is processed in my brain is lost either through brain damage or death then there is nothing. Now the idea of everything just ending is a harsh way to look at the end but given that the brain stops working after we die and we have many documented cases of people who have experienced brain death I think it's the most likely outcome.

One might not like that sort of harsh perspective but it has the benefits of being based on reasonable evidence and forcing us to look at how we live our lives because theres no endless paradise at the end of it, we get one shot

As for the idea or fear of absolute nothingness we have the advantage of not being alive or thinking to worry about it - what was it like before you were born, how did it feel? you die and life for everybody else goes on. Of course if they can download my mind onto a computer or preserve my living head in a jar I would take that option