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We briefly touched on this a while back, but what are everyone's thoughts on the genetic and physical shaping, to the detriment of the animal, of breeds through selective breeding. I'm thinking more along the lines of bulldogs, or pugs, etc... animals that almost certainly live uncomfortable lives due to their exaggerated features. There was a time when I wanted to own a bulldog, but recently, I'm finding myself not wanting to contribute to that sort of behaviour. Thoughts?
 
I was typing my new question while you ladies responded to my previous post. I guess in my mind, since I'm not involved at all with dog breeding, there's a certain part of my imagination that has dogs running around the neighbourhood, breeding, filling out their genetics, ect, at one end and professional breeding at the other... Probably not very realistic, as you've both stated :)
 
I have so many thoughts on that :(. There are a lot of well-intentioned breeders out there that are destroying breeds by trying to get a specific "look" for the dogs. This is particularly common in German Shepherds as well as in the breeds you mentioned. Many people breed for a slope without actually paying attention to research that shows how detrimental an extreme slope can be to a dogs' gait and development. There are GSD breeders who breed dogs with FANTASTIC temperaments that are nearly crippled because of their slopes, or dogs that are hindered by the slope. They genuinely believe nothing is wrong with this because it's so common now in the dog shows that it's just widely accepted.

I know for GSDs the UKC recently put in some stricter breed standards to be more specific in an effort to prevent these extreme slopes from continuing. I think it's really sad unfortunate and I do not want to support or endorse those breeders in any way.

Many people, unfortunately, who are new to purebreds might purchase a dog from one of those breeders thinking everything is great because the parents are conformation champions or fit the "look" and "temperament" and that furthers the whole fad. Education is important here so people know what to look for when evaluating a breeder. It's pretty easy to tell who is and isn't a backyard breeder with a few questions and a visit, but it's not as easy to find out if a dog's structure is hindering to function if you don't even realize it. You'd have to look at breed standard and really understand it.
 
My previous post was based purely on specious reasoning, not scientific fact.

I've just never owned a healthy purebred dog. It's pretty fucked up.
 
I have so many thoughts on that :(. There are a lot of well-intentioned breeders out there that are destroying breeds by trying to get a specific "look" for the dogs. This is particularly common in German Shepherds as well as in the breeds you mentioned. Many people breed for a slope without actually paying attention to research that shows how detrimental an extreme slope can be to a dogs' gait and development. There are GSD breeders who breed dogs with FANTASTIC temperaments that are nearly crippled because of their slopes, or dogs that are hindered by the slope. They genuinely believe nothing is wrong with this because it's so common now in the dog shows that it's just widely accepted.

I know for GSDs the UKC recently put in some stricter breed standards to be more specific in an effort to prevent these extreme slopes from continuing. I think it's really sad unfortunate and I do not want to support or endorse those breeders in any way.

Many people, unfortunately, who are new to purebreds might purchase a dog from one of those breeders thinking everything is great because the parents are conformation champions or fit the "look" and "temperament" and that furthers the whole fad. Education is important here so people know what to look for when evaluating a breeder.

Actually, I think that's where the conversation began the last time; German Shepherds and the 'frog like' appearance of some of the show dogs.

It was brought back to my mind because I recently saw a photo of what English Bulldogs used to look like just about 100 years ago. Obviously that's several times more generations than human's have gone through, but the changes are shockingly apparent. If I'm not mistaken, there's a movement to bring the animals back to their older appearance
 
Anyway, I did the math for the heartworm dosage. I was wrong about my dose. I used to dose much higher (8x Heartgard) to also kill some other internal/intestinal parasites, but now am dosing 2-4x Heartgard because I have other means of dealing with other parasites. Please check my math!

http://www.dutchbingo.net/personal/ivomec dose.pdf


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Solve for X and that's how many mL injectible 1% ivomec/ivermectin to give the dog (orally).

I buy this stuff on Amazon and use cheap 1mL syringes for dosing. I generally squirt it onto a piece of meat or dog food roll.
 
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That thread was based on a "documentary" that had a definite agenda. To be fair, I am only interested in German Shepherds. I personally was disgusted by some of the stuff that was shown, but I have no experience with those breeds so I cannot vouch for the accuracy. The Peke having to sit on ice because he was so hot was ridiculous. My dog ran 12 miles straight for an endurance test and then 20 minutes later we did a 10 minute difficult obedience routine in the hot sun in front of a judge from Germany. Also I have absolutely no experience with the Kennel Club in the UK and what sort of in-fighting goes on between fanciers on the other side of the pond. The footage and photos of the GSDs used were extreme examples. The dogs themselves (I know which ones they are) are not extreme examples but the documentary used very poor, unflattering photos and terrible footage. It's like if I made a documentary stating that all models are anorexic and only showed pictures of models who are 1 pound away from heart failure. That said there are some rather extreme GSDs out there and I think they are disgusting. IMO the American show lines are a totally different breed and I don't even include them when I'm talking about "German shepherds".

Yeah if you believe everything you read/watch, you'd think GSDs are part frog. Do my dogs look like frogs? These dogs are conformation champions, carry health certificates (not a vet certificate like you get from a puppy mill but have had their x-rays reviewed and rated by a pannel of orthopedic specialists), and have titles in about a dozen different sport, work, and temperament testing disciplines.

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The debate is not really about purebred vs. mutt but WHO is doing the breeding. I know people that intentionally breed mixed dogs and do a far better job of it than the majority of pure German Shepherd breeders. Most breeders out there don't know enough about their own breed to own one much less be breeding them and producing sound temperament and health.
 
Actually, I think that's where the conversation began the last time. German Shepherds and the 'frog like' appearance of some of the show dogs.

I was at a dog event recently and saw a vendor who was selling leash hooks with a breed silhouette on the top of the hook. There were 3 versions of German Shepherds. The American Showline version, the German Showline version, and the breed standard version. I was talking to the vendor about the slopes and she said that oddly enough a lot of people prefer the version that fits the standard. It gave me some ray of hope.

I hate the frog like appearance. :(
 
That thread was based on a "documentary" that had a definite agenda. To be fair, I am only interested in German Shepherds. I personally was disgusted by some of the stuff that was shown, but I have no experience with those breeds. The footage and photos of the GSDs used were extreme examples. The dogs themselves (I know which ones they are) are not extreme examples but the documentary used very poor, unflattering photos and terrible footage. That said there are some rather extreme GSDs out there and I think they are disgusting. IMO the American show lines are a totally different breed and I don't even include them when I'm talking about "German shepherds".

Oh, that's right. And yes, it was a very biased one at that, as I recall. It did bring up some interesting things to think about though and perhaps things to research independently
 
I don't even know how a dog WALKS even if the stack (posed position) is more extreme.

Oh this is a still video shot from Nikon's latest show. The two dogs on the right side are American show lines. Look at their hocks and rear compared to Nikon (bred in Germany). And that is how those handlers placed their dogs in a stack. Nikon just did the "down and back" and was not placed/stacked; the judge wants the dog to trot back directly at him, stop and stand on his own so he can evaluate the dog's expression and how he free-stands. And I used to think Nikon was cow-hocked!
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weird. it almost looks as if you caught them mid movement or something. As if they're just about to sit down. It also makes them look timid, whereas yours looks regal
 
No way. Nice lookin dogs! I really like the middle one. Interesting colours

Thanks! The middle and the third are both sable colored. It's actually the dominant color pattern. Pan (the middle dog) is pretty dark though, but not uncommon for working line German Shepherds. He started out blonde though! From this:
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to this:
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weird. it almost looks as if you caught them mid movement or something. As if they're just about to sit down. It also makes them look timid, whereas yours looks regal

That's another problem with those lines. They are generally timid and skittish. One in particular at that show (not picture) was belly crawling half the time and showing avoidance of the handler. :( My dog on the other hand was doing his first show in over a year and loved it! He thinks he is the shit, which is how a German Shepherd should be. He might be a little too self-absorbed though!
 
Thanks! The middle and the third are both sable colored. It's actually the dominant color pattern. Pan (the middle dog) is pretty dark though, but not uncommon for working line German Shepherds. He started out blonde though! From this:
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to this:
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awww. Looks like a little teddy bear. i like his bad ass arm wraps too ;)
 
My dog has a problem with rear angulation and he doesn't even look like that. Liesje your dogs are beautiful and I so wish I had gone with one of your breeders (I thought so hard about it, too).

No frog legs here, though he isn't without faults.
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Yes :)
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NO! *shudder*
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*triple shudder*
 
We briefly touched on this a while back, but what are everyone's thoughts on the genetic and physical shaping, to the detriment of the animal, of breeds through selective breeding. I'm thinking more along the lines of bulldogs, or pugs, etc... animals that almost certainly live uncomfortable lives due to their exaggerated features. There was a time when I wanted to own a bulldog, but recently, I'm finding myself not wanting to contribute to that sort of behaviour. Thoughts?

My best friend grew up with two purebred Great Danes. Her father, quite an odd man, always insisted on getting the LARGEST possible Great Dane. To the point that one of them was imported from Poland, where apparently it's quite common to constantly breed the largest specimens. In any event, both dogs died at 7 from heart attacks. Now that's not necessarily super young for the breed (generally they live about 8-9 years) but each time the vet told them that it was because the dog was simply far too large for his heart and that as the breed was bred to be bigger physically, the hearts didn't catch up. So they'll give out much earlier in life.

Talk about cruel.
 
That is cruel. It's as cruel as the people who get dogs and then let these dogs get obese because they can't be bothered to exercise them and didn't realize that a lab needs more exercise than 30 minutes a day. Then joint problems, heart problems, the whole 9 yards...
 
My best friend grew up with two purebred Great Danes. Her father, quite an odd man, always insisted on getting the LARGEST possible Great Dane. To the point that one of them was imported from Poland, where apparently it's quite common to constantly breed the largest specimens. In any event, both dogs died at 7 from heart attacks. Now that's not necessarily super young for the breed (generally they live about 8-9 years) but each time the vet told them that it was because the dog was simply far too large for his heart and that as the breed was bred to be bigger physically, the hearts didn't catch up. So they'll give out much earlier in life.

Talk about cruel.

That's so shitty.
I wanted a Irish Wolfhound for a while until I learned they only live 6 years or so. I'm assuming it's due to the same reasons. People suck sometimes
 
Yeah that's my biggest hangup with the "giant" breeds, they really are just TOO large. I'm interested in Saint Bernards (for several years down the road) and haven't looked into them much yet but wonder about the sheer size. People are that way about GSDs too, always want the biggest and the tallest. To me a correct sized GSD is a medium-large sized dog. My males are not huge but I do not think they look feminine or puny. Pan is 68lbs and Nikon is 71lbs. With all the sports and working competition we do, it's just unfair to expect a huge dog to be able to do that training safely and maintain a healthy condition throughout their life. I still worry about Pan doing flyball, but right now I'm keeping him lean and he's not as well-boned as Nikon so there isn't any extra anything on him, plus I spent weeks at home refining his box turn so that he turns safely as far as the impact on his shoulders. Also I have this thing where I don't like working dogs that I can't lift and carry in an emergency. It sounds strange but if I'm training and working a dog to be my partner and protector in some potentially dangerous situations then I need to be able to get him to safety if he gets injured. The German Shepherd is a perfect breed for me because of the versatility as far as conformation. The double coat makes them workable in extreme high and low temps, they are a good size for being very athletic and powerful yet not bulky. I like tails and I like erect ears which they have naturally. They are a deeper chested breed which unfortunately makes them prone to bloat.
 
We had a Great Dane for a while, and she was a riot. the neighbours on one side kept losing very very nice leather soccer balls over the fence and never getting them back, cause she could pop them with one bite. The neighbours on the other side were jerkasses who liked to make her jump up over 6 feet to look over the fence. My dad made us get rid of her and I never really understood why. But she lived out the rest of her life (I assume) on the farm that the people who bought her from us owned.
 
Another problem with giant breeds, is that when they are puppies, a lot of people are unfortunately misinformed when it comes to nutrition, and will put them on a growth formula that they pick up at the store. Unfortunately, unless you get a giant breed growth formula, you run into the problem with issues such as osteoarthritis, because they're actually growing TOO fast for the kind of body that they have. A friend of mine used to breed danes, and always has one. Her current one is 7, and he's the dumbest dog you'd meet, but also the sweetest.

Not only do you have issues with people breeding for just color or conformation, and usually inbreeding at that, some breeders don't test for genetic disorders. For example, dobermans are known to be predisposed genetically to von Willebrand's disease, which is a clotting disorder. They lack the von Willebrand's factor, which, if you don't have one factor in the clotting cascade, you don't clot correctly. It's a problem, especially if it's unknown if the dog has it and goes in for surgery, or gets injured.

If you do want to buy from a breeder, make sure the dogs have had the appropriate testing, and NOT just for hip dysplasia (that test in and of itself is quite painful for the dog. OFA has a good list of different tests that are recommended for certain breeds.

Link : Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

I'll get off the soap box now and get back to studying my veterinary science notes, followed by hematology (fun fun)

/L
 
I'm all about testing breeding dogs BUT at least in my breed there's a big issue right now with people substituting testing (often testing which can be inconclusive or just plain wrong, like the DM tests) for actual knowledge about bloodlines and health. Personally I'm going to trust an experienced breeder who has never seen DM in their lines for decades over an inexperienced breeder that is basing their breeding decisions on a test that can be false positive or false negative. To be honest when I see a breeder's web page and the breeding dogs have a dozen different health test/certs under their name I wonder about the breeder. You cannot just run every OFA test under the sun and rely on that for sound, healthy dogs, that is something that comes with decades of experience owning and breeding the bloodlines.

It's really important to know which genetic health disorders plague one's breed of choice and understand how the tests work and what they really prove/disprove. For a German Shepherd dog I'm mainly interested in OFA, PennHIP, OVC, or a-stamp hips and elbows and that's about it. I used to think highly of the DM test but recent findings have me doubting it and I've decided not to test my dog at this time. I don't really need any of the other tests because they do not substitute for knowledge about the health and longevity of the bloodlines, the healthy of the progeny, and the physical working abilities of the bloodlines. That, and I actually value temperament over health but that's another debate.

Pelvic x-rays don't have to be painful. The PennHIP procedure sounds like it is but I prefer OFA or a-stamp for my dogs and a lot of people have it done without any sedative and the dog is just fine. None of my dogs had any problems getting pelvic x-rays. I do it at least twice because I prelim at 6 months and read the films myself. Then I repeat when the dog is more mature to get an OFA or a-stamp certificate which is required for the German Shepherd breed survey (elbows too).
 
Looking at Pet insurance options, might just opt with the car insurance option.
 
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