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Old 09-15-2010, 05:33 AM   #286
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i do talk up Melbourne, but i'm sure the other cities are great, i've just never been. would love to do a road trip to Adelaide.

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You smashin' up Pyramid too, Cobble? Line up is average I reckon, but gonna be a fairly intense couple of days!
yeah mate i'm going... it's a pretty ordinary lineup (esp. compared to Falls) but it was fun last year. you going for 3 days? i'll buy you a drink token
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Old 09-15-2010, 06:26 AM   #287
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no. it's a flat-out lie. shit like this makes me never want to visit melbourne with the attitudes of some of the people who live there.
It’s pretty funny, a bit strange, but mostly ignored.

I remember Billy Crystal a few years ago did a really long run of shows in both Sydney and Melbourne, and when being interviewed on Sydney radio, he was talking about the very different style of confidence the two cities have. He said that when he was in Melbourne, absolutely everyone in Melbourne – people he worked with to general public to interviews – wanted him to tell them that he thought Melbourne was better than Sydney, that he got asked about it by absolutely everyone, guaranteed. He thought it was really weird. The interviewer asked him how he answered, and he said that he would say “Well, where I’m from, the US, we think its okay to have more than one good place. We even consider it a good thing to have many good places.” Which is what everyone outside of Melbourne also thinks.

You have to understand that Melbourne was a complete shit hole until about 25 years ago. Broke. Ugly. No unique image. Nothing happening. But then they lucked into fantastic management, who began on a brilliant turnaround plan. The foundation was based on spending a fortune buying events (mostly sporting) – make Melbourne a destination - and then with those returns, followed it up with a huge investment in infrastructure and general ‘fixing up’, alongside smart legislation in key areas, so it became a naturally desirable location. All of this was framed by what without a doubt have consistently been the best image and branding campaigns – by some margin – of any city or state in the country. The turnaround was remarkable both in real change and the speed of change, but also in how Melbourne was framed. Whatever image you have of Melbourne, whether it’s great small bars, good shopping, big sporting events etc – that’s all really new. From about the mid 90s on, Melbourne has turned itself into a very decent city. And it really is now, especially in the areas where they centrally focused. Completely different to what it used to be, and it’s genuinely become a really great place.

But, it explains that sort of cocky early-adulthood thing Melbourne has, and why it also comes with such a need for continual reaffirmation. They’ve got their first decent job, bought their first decent car, they’re dressing nicely, they’re more than just proud of it, they think they’ve made it. If there is any attitude in reverse from Sydney it would be . It can be cute, it can be sweet. Little Melbourne is all growns up, you have some very nice places and some things on from time to time, and people LIKE you! You’re big, you can call yourself an international city now if you want, but give it time, young one, give it time, it can be a bumpy ride, and after a while you'll develop your own natural sense of who you are, and won't feel the need to do continual laps around the block "Look at my new car! I'm AWESOME!"
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Old 09-15-2010, 06:28 AM   #288
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i can't believe it's been 10 years since the opening ceremony of the sydney olympics.



i don't have much to add other than
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Old 09-15-2010, 06:32 AM   #289
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you are an awesome poster Earnie, but i'm sure i've told you that before. i never knew that about Melbourne.
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Old 09-15-2010, 06:51 AM   #290
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Yeah, even I remember that. Or at least my old Australian MAD magazines from the 80s and early 90s always ripped on Melbourne. It could just be my slack memory, but the Melbourne I visited in 1996 was vastly different to the one I visited in 2001, and then again in 2008. It's gone from the other big city in Australia that people don't talk about to arguably the big city in Australia that people want to talk about. I just have to wonder sometimes if kids in Melbourne are taught to talk about Melbourne so much, because over here we... probably talked about Sydney more than Adelaide.

But yeah, there's no reason Australia can't have many great cities, just like the USA. And really, judging from where I've been around, Australia does have great cities. Sure, there's urban sprawl like nobody's business, but I can think of something good about every capital I've visited. For what it's worth I can't wait to visit Melbourne again (Lygon St. is my spiritual home) and same for Sydney.

Cobbler, it'd be great if you could set up a road trip before I head off to the country that took me 45 minutes to locate on a map. We can live the high life.
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Old 09-15-2010, 07:01 AM   #291
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Australia does indeed have great cities. The whole Melbourne V Sydney, Sydney V Melbourne thing pisses me off to no end. We get it, you're great, we're great. Fuck I ain't gonna choose to live in one over the other, just cause city X is better. Is that city gonna find me a job?, buy me a house?, pay my bills?

I have been to Perth, Darwin...and well do you count the Gold Coast in the last twelve months. While I'd admit the Gold Coast is probably more touristy for me..I could easily move to Perth or Darwin. Perth reminds me a lot of Melbourne. Darwin, I loved the hot weather. Being able to go for a swim at any time of the year? Hells yeah! The only downside would be you are so isolated from everything else.

Plus Darwin is a little like Hobart, would have to travel to see all the big bands. I'd miss being able to go to the footy every weekend, ect.
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Old 09-15-2010, 07:14 AM   #292
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my favourite australian rivalry is western australia (or perth, really) vs everyone else. there's nothing they don't have a chip on their shoulder about!
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Old 09-15-2010, 07:49 AM   #293
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The whole Melbourne V Sydney, Sydney V Melbourne thing pisses me off to no end.
Yeah, a whole load of pointless tribal nonsense
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Old 09-15-2010, 08:56 AM   #294
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my favourite australian rivalry is western australia (or perth, really) vs everyone else. there's nothing they don't have a chip on their shoulder about!
Yeah, I do like that. All of their 'Eastern States' conspiracies. Everything is about the Eastern States. I was once in a pub in Perth a few weeks before the referendum on the republic, in 1999, and some old man realised I was from Sydney and started going off at me specifically about that, it was all a set up, an 'Eastern State' plan to somehow... do something... with the only goal being to fuck Western Australia over? I didn't get it. And you’d hear that sort of thing all the time, and not just from senile old men. Every decision made in Sydney/Melbourne/Canberra was one specifically dreamt up to fuck over WA. It would be hilarious if it were true. Secretly, all of Perth is one huge Big Brother set. They don’t realise they’re on tv over here, and we all vote each week for different tricks to play on them. Last week, we gave them heaps of mining cash. This week, we’re taking it all away! Now we all laugh as we watch you all sell your HSV utes!

But yes, all the cities are great in their own way. And Sydney and Melbourne really are not at all comparable. Vastly different places. Its like comparing San Francisco to New York. Not that either city has anything in common with those two, just that they are equally different, to the point of making a comparison pointless. I don’t even know where to begin making a direct comparison between the two. If someone said to me “One or the other, which should I visit?” I would actually say that Melbourne is a far, far better compact destination, so if it’s 2-3 days only, go Melbourne. But there’s a wider variety in Sydney if you have the time, so if you have 5-7 days, go with Sydney. However, if you have any more than that, you are absolutely mad to not do both, BECAUSE THEY ARE VERY DIFFERENT and not in a way that is directly, superficially comparable.

And I didn't mean to make it sound like Melbourne was once like Detroit is today. Nothing *that* bad. Just that it absolutely, definitely was the second city to Sydney, without it's own distinct qualities or unique personality. Through very deliberate (and great) planning, and clever marketing, they've completely changed that in a relatively short period of time, and that's fantastic. Nothing of the image of Melbourne today, existed pre-mid 90s, really. I would actually almost draw a line at the construction of Flinders Park, and say that was symbolically where the history of ‘modern’ Melbourne began. That kind of investment was what it began with. And it’s working specifically because it is deliberately planned, and so it is both measured and in a way, thorough. Sydney’s equivalent boom from, I guess, regional capital to international city was in the 70s, and it was a wild/organic thing that occurred despite the government, as opposed to a measured, centrally planned, government thing as per Melbourne.

It’s why the infrastructure in Sydney is completely fucked. The city underwent a similar rapid boom in the 70s, one that has continued since, and via a truly amazing history of unbelievably awful governing, continually devoid of any future planning, the infrastructure of Sydney never kept pace, to the point where now, even if all-time-brilliant governing miraculously appeared out of nowhere, it would still take… I don’t know what, something in the decades/gazillions of dollars… to even begin to address it, let alone fix it. You’d be looking so far into the future, that it would probably only start to look like a reasonable system around the time we all start teleporting around the place anyway.

But, I do have a soft spot for a bit of dysfunction. I’ve lived in London now for 18 months, and have spent an on and off total of about 6 months in New York, and I love cities that in part are absolutely incredible, but in part also make you feel like punching everyone in the face. That sense of dysfunction, and frustration, really is a common feature of so many big cities, and can very much be part of what makes them exciting/interesting. But yes, the benefit newer major cities, like Melbourne, have is that they’ve developed in an age where the importance of that sort of infrastructure planning is far better understood. Sydney has an unsustainable urban sprawl, to the point where it’s footprint actually makes it one of the largest cities in the world. Sydney has ghettos. It has a public transport system that would service a city the size of Brisbane well, but is pretty much meaningless to most of us. It has no future planning in place for any of these things, or other coming issues, e.g. water supply. But it’s always exciting, always evolving, always ‘on’, beautiful, and within Sydney lurk about five or six quite different feeling mini-cities, really. And it doesn’t have Dave Hughes! Definite score one for Sydney!
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Old 09-15-2010, 09:19 AM   #295
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nice posts as usual, earnie.
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Old 09-15-2010, 11:27 AM   #296
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well you've convinced me
Yes, but you would say that.

Anyway, did you watch the match tonight. Nil-all draw, but I was flabbergasted at the number of Nix fans there were there, you guys easily outnumbered Brisbane and Perth's traveling fans in recent weeks, and your Away bay was pretty chocas. Impressive club. Good work

A nice little generalisation on your part Khanada, assuming that Sydneysiders aren't guilty of having their own "attitudes" that they themselves are a superior city. It works both ways.

I think the snobbery in here against the rivalry between Melbourne and Sydney is a little pathetic. It's good fun, and a lot of Sydney folk are more than happy to partake in a bit of heated debate.

Of course, Melburnians are gonna blow our trumpet more loudly than Sydneysiders, because the marketing of Australia internationally usually tends to cite Sydney as the key city to go to. Our trumpet needs to be blown more loudly for us to not be so overshadowed. When foreigners think of an Australian city, they tend to think of Sydney first. Our common response is, yes, they are bigger, had a more recent Olympics, and have a famous bridge and opera house next to a pretty harbour, but we are actually quite special down here, and we can confidently list reasons why we are pretty special.

That's my foundation for my sense of rivalry.That Melbourne isn't in a tourist's consideration set, but Sydney is.

As Ernie said, Melbourne has become special in the past 25 years. I am proud, and I immerse myself in the city all the time. I keep thinking that maybe my love for this city may subside, but sure enough, the city keeps giving me new reasons to love it all over again. I must have walked from one side of the CBD to the heart of Richmond town 3 or 4 times in the past week or so (our public transport system is admittedly unreliable, dirty and expensive so I'd rather walk) and it's just an amazing journey. The Yarra is really something.

I've been to Sydney several times. I sincerely dislike it and feel very uncomfortable. I much prefer Canberra. Sydney is vastly different from Melbourne, but I personally find very few characteristics that make it different in ways that appeal to me.

The clincher for me is when I'm with friends and we're just doing something in Melbourne (shopping, walking around or at an event or whatever), and we just collectively agree with each other when one of us sees something that makes them wanna say "I love this city". This isn't brought on by any notion of rivalry with Sydney, it's just what we feel about our own town. It's a pretty special feeling.
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Old 09-15-2010, 11:32 AM   #297
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yeah mate i'm going... it's a pretty ordinary lineup (esp. compared to Falls) but it was fun last year. you going for 3 days? i'll buy you a drink token
might be needing a few of those, regrettably.
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Old 09-15-2010, 02:08 PM   #298
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On the Olympic thing, Sydney is definitely not the only city to suffer that - be it Olympics or World Cup or whatever. It is quite common for Olympic cities to have that happen. They think it's simply because all of the hype, all of the publicity, occurs leading up to the event - look at this city, doing all this stuff to get ready, looking really good, its time in the spotlight! You should go there! - Loads of media attention, loads of money spent on promotion, and then the event happens, and it seems to have the effect of a wrap party more than anything else. Party is over. Curtains come down. You missed it, why go now? And people are like that with hype. Once the event happens, it's yesterdays story. What's cool now? Somewhere else.

International tourism to Sydney was booming year on year from winning the games leading into having the games, then yes, it started to drop. It's very common. I bet it happens with South Africa as well. And there are always arguments for and against putting on these ridiculously expensive events, in part because of the massive evidence to suggest that they do, in fact, hardly ever create the kind of longer term post-event boon they are hyped to create. But it is relative - it depends on what you are comparing it to. Was intl. tourism to Sydney in 2001 higher then 1991? Bet it was, massively. But was it higher than 1999? Definitely not. They misjudge the peak, and thus misrepresent the effect. The money period is the time between winning and hosting, not afterwards.
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Old 09-15-2010, 08:14 PM   #299
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Earnie what do you do for a job? you're a good writer, it seems..

interesting you bring up the whole "i like cities that make you smile and want to hit someone at the same time" thing. that's part of the reason i didn't like San Francisco very much. we stayed at the Hilton on O'Farrell st, which is right in the middle of their CBD, and all the streets were cramped and dirty and there were homeless people on every corner... it felt unwelcoming. i'm not well-travelled enough to know if some of the areas count as urban decay. but on the last day or so, we drove around a bit, and it has nice places, there was this big huge green park with a lot of nice houses, you had the Fisherman's Wharf area which was a bit brighter, Lombard St (the one that zig-zags) and then over the Golden Gate you have this lovely little Sausalito suburb.

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Cobbler, it'd be great if you could set up a road trip before I head off to the country that took me 45 minutes to locate on a map. We can live the high life.
i will definitely get over there before you leave. shame Crawf isn't running in the opposite direction.
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might be needing a few of those, regrettably.
well let me know if you'd wanna meet up! and hey, do you actually live in Melbourne? or like Carlton or Richmond or something? because i live in Werribee, so the only time i'm ever in the CBD is when we go clubbing in the city on a Saturday night.

here's a short piece i wrote the other day after i had an appointment with the surgeon on Collins St:

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Melbourne CBD, 8am, cool September morning.
I don't come to the CBD often. So it's no wonder I've had to pull over on Queensbridge Rd and use my iPhone to figure out how the hell I get to Collins St.
Turns out the reliable old Melways is just as good.
My appointment is at the Spring St end of Collins St. Once I hit Collins I turn left onto Spring and left again down Little Collins St in search of a park.
I pull into "Safe City Car Park" and park my car, packing away my iPod and ensuring the club lock is securely fitted.
But a man who looks a lot like Ken Jeong pointedly tells me that my car will be safe - "you see the sign?" - and takes my keys and moves my car (when I return later the driver's-side window is down, the car is unlocked, the keys are in the ignition and Ken Jeong is off having a smoke). Bemused, I walk out onto Lt Collins, and then turn right onto Spring.
Here, on the fringe of the CBD, it's quite picturesque; there's a huge green lawn area with picnic tables and incongruous statues, some nice buildings in the background. Neat and casual cafes abound.
It is here, standing on the corner of Spring and Lt Collins, that I learn a lesson - don't stand still in Melbourne's bustling CBD streets (they can barely contain the patronage). A train arrives at Parliament and all of a sudden I'm trampled by unenthused faces, drab suits, iPods being used for solace, smokes, tall tall tall cappuccinos and the quickening clip-clop of CBD business footwear.
I feel like a stunned tourist in my own city.
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Old 09-15-2010, 08:50 PM   #300
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nice location by the way, Bonnie
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