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Old 08-05-2012, 11:32 AM   #31
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I have the same problem. Had to choose between an ATTS test (only done once a year in my entire state), flyball tournament, SDA trial, and a wedding. Oh and no matter which one of those I choose, I still miss normal Schutzhund training.
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Old 08-05-2012, 11:34 AM   #32
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Pan has starting picking fights with Nikon and nicked Nikon above the eye during one of their squabbles so now Nikon is sporting a clump of white neo-predef powder (my doggy cure-all).
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Old 08-06-2012, 01:10 PM   #33
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Realized I never put pictures of Frank, my French Bulldog puppy, here.





Pictures are from a few weeks ago (he already looks small to me in these), his ear has popped back up (apparently pretty common for this breed for them to go up and down during teething) His eyes aren't really blue, the flash did that.
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Old 08-06-2012, 04:37 PM   #34
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Old 08-08-2012, 06:14 PM   #35
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I don't know how I've missed these wonderful dog threads! I guess I don't venture into this forum enough.

Here are my "puppies" who turned 6 this past July. They were born 10 days apart. I obtained them both on Labor Day weekend in 2006. This is a fairly recent picture in my new home by my front door (hence the tail wags).

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Old 08-08-2012, 06:20 PM   #36
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Here's a picture of all of us at the 4th of July Easter Mother's Day Christmas ( ).



And a cute one of them as pups.
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Old 08-19-2012, 01:32 PM   #37
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Hey, Liesje, we're thinking of adopting a German Shepherd dog for my little brother as a companion. Any tips/advice?
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Old 08-19-2012, 02:40 PM   #38
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My advice would be to be careful about the dog and where you're getting it from. GSDs are currently full of health and temperament issues. Be prepared to sort through all of that and also make sure a GSD is *really* what you want. Too many people get a GSD for looks or their nobility and are not prepared for dogs that are strong willed, have higher energy, and can be very protective. These are not bad traits when one is prepared for them and the dog has sound nerves.
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Old 08-22-2012, 09:24 PM   #39
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A montage of some of my dog training fails

Training Fails - YouTube
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Old 08-22-2012, 11:43 PM   #40
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!

Audrey is now creeping up on being 3 months old

Photobucket, however, seems to be down, so the picture I just took will have to wait.
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Old 08-31-2012, 11:25 PM   #41
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So, last Saturday morning my two GSDs got into a spat and I waited until I thought I had a clear shot of breaking it up, but when Nikon started to back off Pan took one last cheap shot and got my hand instead. I had several x-rays to rule out broken bones or tooth chips (from the dog) in the wounds and have to take various oral antibiotics. One of my dogs had two punctures to his leg so when I got done in the ER I cleaned him up and put him on antibiotics. One of the wounds on the top of my hand was a tear and I had three large sutures. It's been seven days now and I've done a super job of keeping it clean, slathered with antibiotic creams, and wrapped. In fact just now was the first time I've really washed it more roughly and have it exposed. It still looks pretty nasty though (see spoiler). I can't wait for the stitches to be taken out. The real damage was two of the puncture wounds and the crushing bite. Luckily nothing showed up broken but my finger feels like I pointed it out straight and rammed it into a cement wall. I suspect it will be stiff for a long time (and I already have a tendency to develop chronic inflammation/arthritis in joints that have had "trauma").

I've actually sold the dog that started the fight, not because of this bite though, he did not mean to bite me and recoiled as soon as he hit my flesh which actually gave me the chance to stop the fight for good. He's a total love with people, kids, and all the other dogs he plays with but for some reason decided he wanted to eliminate my other competition dog (who is twice as old, more mature, more protective of me and our household so not willing to let some young gun try to boss him around). I sold him to a really good friend several weeks ago and was keeping him these last few weeks since my friends were preparing to move out of state. They came and picked him up Thursday afternoon on their way to their new property. I'll really miss him but I do not miss the recent fights between the dogs or having to constantly separate them. The fights we've had (including the one where I got bit) were all due to accidents like us not closing a gate in the house all the way and one dog following through to the side of the house with the other dog and then a fight breaking out. I'm not scared of either of my dogs or scared of breaking up fights but it was escalating too far and getting too stressful for all the humans and dogs. I was lucky that my good friend likes my dog and offered to buy him and that everyone agreed (me, his breeder, the other people we train with who know both of us and our dogs). Also we got Phil a new vehicle with the money from the dog so we can't complain about that. I was already stressing about Phil driving another Michigan winter in a 17 year old vehicle that was already on its last legs when we got it years ago.

 
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Old 09-01-2012, 12:37 AM   #42
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Lies - I had a similar crushing injury, not from a dog bite but when a garage door fell on my hand and crushed it (yeah, don't even ask), back when I was 18. Miraculously I had only one broken bone but because of the crushing there was a lot of soft tissue damage and I remember it was a real grind to get it back to feeling ok. I think with dogs, especially GSDs which have large and powerful jaws, the pressure over the surface area would be very high as well.

That's too bad to hear about Pan and I'm sure you guys will miss him. What a gorgeous dog. Loved seeing his videos too. I guess that's one of my hesitations with getting multiple dogs, as I asked you before. I know that you got them at different times and I think that Nikon was already an adult dog (or was he still a youth?) when you got Pan, and the issue is usually picking up two pups together. Is it something that you saw coming for a while, i.e. were they incompatible as dogs or was it just something that happened over time as Pan grew older? My future SIL has a female labradoodle and is considering getting a second one but your story makes me a bit weary. Maybe unnecessarily so - obviously lots of people have multiple dogs and you guys still have Coke, but I guess my question is how early can you see these types of fit issues emerge?
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Old 09-01-2012, 02:59 AM   #43
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Well that made me sad . I understand the reasons though, and hope you're doing better, Lies!
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Old 09-01-2012, 08:31 AM   #44
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Years back I got bit by a dog at the animal shelter but I had so many layers of winter clothes, there were no punctures. However the bruising was so bad it took 6 months before I could squeeze my arm and not have it hurt. My entire left side was a rainbow for several weeks!

I think two intact males is always a risk, which I knew going in. Especially in my case having two intact males, quite close in age (Pan turned 2 on Thursday and Nikon turned 4 around the same time), and living in such a small house/property without a way to kennel. If I lived in the suburbs I would have a kennel outside or garage/outdoor kennel runs. I don't like purely outdoor/kennel dogs but Pan is a dog that is actually more independent for a GSD and doesn't mind spending hours outside by himself. But because of where we live it's just not realistic. Phil and I decided before we had Nikon even that we will not put up with dogs that can't live peacefully. In this case it was really an easy decision. My friend is better suited for Pan's temperament, and honestly I probably would have sold him even if Nikon and Pan were still best friends. Yes there were indications earlier that Nikon and Pan were not going to work out but I did not expect it to escalate THAT quickly. This was Nikon and Pan two days before their first fight.

They have never really been friends though. Nikon, though he is protective of me and usually aloof with other dogs, is VERY tolerant with puppies so he's always been great when I have a puppy/foster/friend's puppy come over. He showed Pan the ropes when Pan was a baby but beyond that they just sort of coexisted as if they tolerated each other and at times would do nice submissive things like liking faces or acting like in that picture. I would say that Nikon was more protective of Pan as part of his pack than he was his friend. Pan has always pestered him relentlessly; he has high prey drive and a very low threshold for it (which means he's interested in anything that moves) so he always chases Nikon around nipping at him and for the most part Nikon just ignored him.

I believe what prompted the escalation to fighting is Pan's maturity. GSDs mature very slowly and if I had to guess when a problem would surface it would have been exactly this time. Pan has always been very social with dogs and people and not at all protective of me or defensive but that's actually not correct behavior for a GSD. I think he just didn't really know how to act when his hormones finally kicked in.

It's hard because *I* own and handle my dogs, if that makes sense? Phil is just sort of there. If my dogs are fighting and there's any hope of intervening, we either have to physically wrestle them apart or hope that they both decided to listen to me and knock it off. Before the fights, Pan started doing this thing where if he was near me and Nikon started to come over, Pan would hackle and give a low growl. Nikon would usually growl back but turn away to avoid a conflict. I would verbally and physically correct Pan and then prevent him from being near me for a time. It was like a resource guarding of me but in this case neither dog is really right or wrong. When we had the couple of fights, they were always instigated by Pan but would have been finished by Nikon. He won't start a fight but he's not going to let a little punk tell him what he can or can't do in his own house!

This is not a dominance/alpha thing; that theory is outdated and debunked. The other problem is that Pan has always had trouble figuring out "no reward markers" if you're familiar with training theories, and why he doesn't earn something. So say he starts growling, Nikon growls back, and then Pan can't just take that correction and move on he gets overly defensive about himself. He's a great dog and fun to train but he's also dumb, in a way. He's not very good at problem solving and he tends to go into a frantic state of drive (whether it's food, prey, etc) so quickly that he can't ever figure out why he's in the situation he's in and how to fix that. By contrast Nikon is a thinking dog, easy to "freeshape", a great problem solver, much more calculating and discerning with how he approaches a situation that might involve conflict or stress.

Also there is the breed aspect. No offense but unlatching the jaws of two fully grown male German Shepherds is quite different than breaking up to Shih Tzus. These dogs are bred to literally crush a threat. Pan especially is known for the power behind his bite. That's one of the reasons I bought him. When they bite for real they use their entire mouths and crush with their molars. If you get in the middle of that by accident you don't have any bite inhibition their to save you (for example sometimes I tease my dogs by pinching their toes and they play-bite by putting their mouth on me but obviously are using bite inhibition). Pan would probably be missing an ear if I hadn't stepped in eventually.

So anyway, to answer more succinctly I would say it really depends on breed and how the breed matures. I know nothing about Labradoodles. Pan and Nikon now hate each other's guts but are both fine with Coke, fine with all my foster dogs, and Pan is fine with all the dogs in his new home including another intact male GSD. If the dog is neutered young that makes a huge difference. Coke is not even considered a male to Nikon. I watched him the other day sniffing Coke's pee and Nikon was drooling and chattering the same way he does when he is scenting a bitch, lol. Most people I know have two or more male dogs in their home but most of them are neutered and were neutered pretty young. I don't alter my dogs unless there's a reason to do it so that changes the dynamics quite a bit. Would I get another male GSD? Oh for sure! I'm not actively looking and not because I'm sour about this whole thing - not at all - I'm just going to take it easy this winter and focus on finishing some higher level titles with Nikon and do the fostering thing for a while.

I don't regret owning Pan or the decision to sell him and like I said, the fighting was really only one aspect of that decision. He is just a better fit where he is now. I've never been attached to him the way that I am to Nikon and Coke. It's not Pan's fault he's just a different dog and I got him for different reasons than Nikon and Coke. I had hoped to compete with him at a much higher level and it was hard letting that go but I realized it's selfish of me to keep a dog under stress simply as my project rather than my pet. His new owner is a better trainer than I am and Pan will be in a great club that is already familiar with his pedigree.
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Old 09-01-2012, 04:35 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liesje View Post
Years back I got bit by a dog at the animal shelter but I had so many layers of winter clothes, there were no punctures. However the bruising was so bad it took 6 months before I could squeeze my arm and not have it hurt. My entire left side was a rainbow for several weeks!

I think two intact males is always a risk, which I knew going in. Especially in my case having two intact males, quite close in age (Pan turned 2 on Thursday and Nikon turned 4 around the same time), and living in such a small house/property without a way to kennel. If I lived in the suburbs I would have a kennel outside or garage/outdoor kennel runs. I don't like purely outdoor/kennel dogs but Pan is a dog that is actually more independent for a GSD and doesn't mind spending hours outside by himself. But because of where we live it's just not realistic. Phil and I decided before we had Nikon even that we will not put up with dogs that can't live peacefully. In this case it was really an easy decision. My friend is better suited for Pan's temperament, and honestly I probably would have sold him even if Nikon and Pan were still best friends. Yes there were indications earlier that Nikon and Pan were not going to work out but I did not expect it to escalate THAT quickly. This was Nikon and Pan two days before their first fight.

They have never really been friends though. Nikon, though he is protective of me and usually aloof with other dogs, is VERY tolerant with puppies so he's always been great when I have a puppy/foster/friend's puppy come over. He showed Pan the ropes when Pan was a baby but beyond that they just sort of coexisted as if they tolerated each other and at times would do nice submissive things like liking faces or acting like in that picture. I would say that Nikon was more protective of Pan as part of his pack than he was his friend. Pan has always pestered him relentlessly; he has high prey drive and a very low threshold for it (which means he's interested in anything that moves) so he always chases Nikon around nipping at him and for the most part Nikon just ignored him.

I believe what prompted the escalation to fighting is Pan's maturity. GSDs mature very slowly and if I had to guess when a problem would surface it would have been exactly this time. Pan has always been very social with dogs and people and not at all protective of me or defensive but that's actually not correct behavior for a GSD. I think he just didn't really know how to act when his hormones finally kicked in.

It's hard because *I* own and handle my dogs, if that makes sense? Phil is just sort of there. If my dogs are fighting and there's any hope of intervening, we either have to physically wrestle them apart or hope that they both decided to listen to me and knock it off. Before the fights, Pan started doing this thing where if he was near me and Nikon started to come over, Pan would hackle and give a low growl. Nikon would usually growl back but turn away to avoid a conflict. I would verbally and physically correct Pan and then prevent him from being near me for a time. It was like a resource guarding of me but in this case neither dog is really right or wrong. When we had the couple of fights, they were always instigated by Pan but would have been finished by Nikon. He won't start a fight but he's not going to let a little punk tell him what he can or can't do in his own house!

This is not a dominance/alpha thing; that theory is outdated and debunked. The other problem is that Pan has always had trouble figuring out "no reward markers" if you're familiar with training theories, and why he doesn't earn something. So say he starts growling, Nikon growls back, and then Pan can't just take that correction and move on he gets overly defensive about himself. He's a great dog and fun to train but he's also dumb, in a way. He's not very good at problem solving and he tends to go into a frantic state of drive (whether it's food, prey, etc) so quickly that he can't ever figure out why he's in the situation he's in and how to fix that. By contrast Nikon is a thinking dog, easy to "freeshape", a great problem solver, much more calculating and discerning with how he approaches a situation that might involve conflict or stress.

Also there is the breed aspect. No offense but unlatching the jaws of two fully grown male German Shepherds is quite different than breaking up to Shih Tzus. These dogs are bred to literally crush a threat. Pan especially is known for the power behind his bite. That's one of the reasons I bought him. When they bite for real they use their entire mouths and crush with their molars. If you get in the middle of that by accident you don't have any bite inhibition their to save you (for example sometimes I tease my dogs by pinching their toes and they play-bite by putting their mouth on me but obviously are using bite inhibition). Pan would probably be missing an ear if I hadn't stepped in eventually.

So anyway, to answer more succinctly I would say it really depends on breed and how the breed matures. I know nothing about Labradoodles. Pan and Nikon now hate each other's guts but are both fine with Coke, fine with all my foster dogs, and Pan is fine with all the dogs in his new home including another intact male GSD. If the dog is neutered young that makes a huge difference. Coke is not even considered a male to Nikon. I watched him the other day sniffing Coke's pee and Nikon was drooling and chattering the same way he does when he is scenting a bitch, lol. Most people I know have two or more male dogs in their home but most of them are neutered and were neutered pretty young. I don't alter my dogs unless there's a reason to do it so that changes the dynamics quite a bit. Would I get another male GSD? Oh for sure! I'm not actively looking and not because I'm sour about this whole thing - not at all - I'm just going to take it easy this winter and focus on finishing some higher level titles with Nikon and do the fostering thing for a while.

I don't regret owning Pan or the decision to sell him and like I said, the fighting was really only one aspect of that decision. He is just a better fit where he is now. I've never been attached to him the way that I am to Nikon and Coke. It's not Pan's fault he's just a different dog and I got him for different reasons than Nikon and Coke. I had hoped to compete with him at a much higher level and it was hard letting that go but I realized it's selfish of me to keep a dog under stress simply as my project rather than my pet. His new owner is a better trainer than I am and Pan will be in a great club that is already familiar with his pedigree.

I'm sorry you had to go through all this. That really sucks. I still feel guilty for returning Natasha but I don't regret it since she was trying to kill Wally any chance she got. Anyway, I just wanted to say I'm sorry you have to deal with all this.....
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