For Dog Lovers.... Part 3

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More pics of Joni (all of pets must be named after my favorite musicians, apparently):

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My fourth dog (well, I had one for a week that was completely unstable and was promptly returned; would rather not get into that whole mess at length). She's just been an absolute blessing so far. Completely housebroken, limited barking, and she wrestles with and does whatever else with you. Completely crap at walks, but she will learn in time. And yeah, I've slept great two nights in a row thanks to the aforementioned crate training I assume she's had. Flash kept me up very late that first night; might not have slept at all had my father not volunteered himself to watch him.

Also, I enjoy the slow progression from depressed and pissed off to thoroughly pleased that can be seen in those pics. She seems pretty happy here now, though it was ver challenging to pry her away from her owners, who had to let her go because of lack of space and two very large, presumably territorial German shepherds.
 
You don't need any formal training or schooling. When I look at working with trainers their work speaks for itself. The more actual experience training dogs, the better. It is really a skill that some people have an others don't, something that cannot really be learned in books or studying learning theory. I find that one needs to have a very good understanding of the four quadrants of operant conditioning and how they apply to dog training and behavior. That is absolutely the most important thing regardless of what training tool you are using or what you are training a dog to do. Read Karen Pyror's "Don't Shoot the Dog!" My philosophy is that training is basically communication between you and the dog and for it to work you need to be clear, fair, and consistent. Those three things - clear, fair, and consistent - leave lots of room for using various tools with various behaviors and account for the vast differences in temperaments and working drives. I train dogs with everything from food treats, tug toys, balls, prong/pinch collars, remote collars, you name it I have used it. There are some behavior chains I will *only* train via backchaining and freeshaping, and other behaviors I will train exclusively with compulsion/escape training.

cheers for the info Liesje!
i've heard of that book, will definitely check it out! i'm not familiar with the terms "backchaining" and "freeshaping" - with the horses i mostly use "pressure/release" and "advance/retreat", which works wonders in all kinds of situations, desensitizing etc., but you really have to get the timing spot on...

thanks again! :)
 
YES, I forgot to say that too, timing is everything!!! Not to toot my own horn but I'm very good at timing whether it's a marker, a reward, or a correction. Often at club, I am clicking the clicker for someone else, or tapping their remote, or even line handling their dog. It can be very difficult for people to grasp. Part of it is that most people do not break down behaviors into small enough steps. For example, say you have a dog like my Coke that is very bad at coming when called. With this dog at the beginning of training a recall, you do not wait until the dog has come back to you to mark the good behavior and reward. The first step would be to mark as soon as the dog turns his head from far away and acknowledges your command to "come!".

Backchaining refers to training a complex behavior (usually a sequence of behaviors) and breaking it down into steps which are basically taught in reverse. For example, in Schutzhund obedience we have to perform three formal dumbbell retrieves. This is my full article (with video links) on backchaining a retrieve: http://www.dutchbingo.net/personal/How to Backchain the Formal Retrieve.pdf Many dogs retrieve willingly but not with the level of precision that this routine requires. So for those like me who backchain the formal retrieve, the first step is to train the dog to hold the dumbbell sitting in front, then you train the dog to come towards you with a dumbbell in his mouth and sit in front, then you add more and more distance, then you training the dog to go out and get the dumbbell (it's actually a LOT more steps than that, but you get the idea). Another example is something I am working on right now with a dog in the protection phase. We have these "blinds" which are like a triangle tent where the "helper" (decoy who gets bit) stands. The first exercise is to send the dog into the blind. The dog has to bark at the helper for a period of time, then the handler comes around, walks up to the dog, and commands him to "sit" (which in this case also means to stop barking). I was having an issue where my dog would go in and bark good but when he could see me coming his way he would get slightly distracted and look at me between barks. I suggested to my helper that we backchain this. In this example that means we start with me standing next to the dog in the blind while he is barking. Then as we progress I move farther out of the blind until I am standing where I would be in a trial.

Freeshaping is something often paired with backchaining. It's a "purely positive" form of training where you are using a marker (a word or click) and reward. Most positive training is either freeshaping or lure/reward type training. Freeshaping is not as common b/c it requires a LOT of patience, impeccable timing, and a dog that has a knack for it. Basically it is what it sounds like, you allow the dog to be "free" and "shape" the behavior you want. It's easier to grasp with an example. Go back to the formal retrieve. As I said the first step is usually to train a dog to hold a dumbbell. That alone can be a challenge since a dumbbell weighs 5lbs and the dog must hold it tightly while focusing intently on your face and is not allowed to loll the dumbbell or "chew" on it. But how do you get a dog to take a dumbbell in the first place? I usually freeshape my "hold" (we call this behavior the "hold") using a clicker. I start with a dowel not a dumbbell (dumbbell is too weird and heavy at first). I just hold it out to the dog. If the dog sniffs it, I click/treat. I c/t sniffing the dowel ten times because the dog has no idea what I want and cannot be expected to take and hold it, so I am first shaping a positive interaction with a dowel. Once the dog gets that, I up the ante so now the click/treat only happens if the dog tries to put his mouth/teeth on the dowel. From there we shape biting, then taking and biting, then taking, biting, and holding correctly, then holding for longer and longer, then holding for a long time while I make distractions, etc. This is freeshaping because I am letting the dog decide what to do, just only rewarding the choice *I* want the dog to make. By contrast, I could simply pry the dog's mouth open and shove the dowel in, or I could wave it around like a toy to entice the dog to bite on it. But those are not freeshaping, those are examples of luring. I like to freeshape certain tricks because it makes for a more pro-active, thinking, problem-solving dog than a dog that is certainly obedient and willing but needs to be constantly directed what to do.

By contrast, many people train a formal retrieve using compulsion (also known as pressure or escape training). On the operant conditioning diagram this is negative reinforcement (NOT positive punishment as some might think). If you want to use -R to train a dog to hold a dowel, you would apply discomfort until the dog opens his mouth and takes the dowel. Immediately the discomfort turns off and the dog quickly desires to hold that dowel.
 
Rare moment while watching The People's Court. This idiot is suing a dog trainer. One of the reasons she stated was that a doberman was too big for a crate. Let a person do their job.
 
I just found a tick on my dog. Firmly attached to her lip of all places. I pulled it out but wanted to know if there's anything else I should do? Never had a tick issue ever before, so I'm clueless.
 
I just found a tick on my dog. Firmly attached to her lip of all places. I pulled it out but wanted to know if there's anything else I should do? Never had a tick issue ever before, so I'm clueless.

The ticks have been really bad this year. If it's just holding on to a little bite of skin, I just grab it and pull it off. If it has gotten to the point where the tick is actually buried in the dog's skin and has started swelling up, then I get a tweezers to pull it out and put rubbing alcohol on the bite area. You want to make sure that the tick's head and mouth parts don't break off and stay in. They have hard shells, so I sometimes squash them on the sidewalk with a rock or just flush them down the toilet. My dog has had so many that he knows what "tick" means and pulls them off himself and immobilizes them with his drool and then stares at it until someone comes to get it.
 
Poor dog :( Even normal sized Danes are already prone to several health problems and live relatively short lives in general.
 
got a big dilemma at the moment - some people have a holiday home on the edge of a public footpath/bridlepath where a lot of people ride horses, and they have a newfoundland dog - he is only a year or two old, beautiful, but incredibly boisterous and VERY badly trained - he runs at and chases the horses, and even when he is on a lead out on a walk, he has total disregard for his owners and they cannot hold him... he does not come to call, and will actually jump up on horses/bikes/people and chases cars that go along the path - he jumps their fence and even jumps out of the house thru the double stable-type door...

it's getting v. worrying as, with the horses, he could cause a terrible accident... the dog's owner has recently broken her leg due to an incident with her dog... at the moment we are avoiding that route, but it's normally one of the safest off-road places to ride around here...

i'm wondering what is the best way to respond to a big boisterous dog like that when you meet it out and about??? i don't think he is aggressive, just massive and very very intimidating! if i do go that way, should i take a ball or something to throw for him, to distract him and get him away from the horses?? or would that just make it worse??

it's more a safety issue than anything really...
 
got a big dilemma at the moment - some people have a holiday home on the edge of a public footpath/bridlepath where a lot of people ride horses, and they have a newfoundland dog - he is only a year or two old, beautiful, but incredibly boisterous and VERY badly trained - he runs at and chases the horses, and even when he is on a lead out on a walk, he has total disregard for his owners and they cannot hold him... he does not come to call, and will actually jump up on horses/bikes/people and chases cars that go along the path - he jumps their fence and even jumps out of the house thru the double stable-type door...

it's getting v. worrying as, with the horses, he could cause a terrible accident... the dog's owner has recently broken her leg due to an incident with her dog... at the moment we are avoiding that route, but it's normally one of the safest off-road places to ride around here...

i'm wondering what is the best way to respond to a big boisterous dog like that when you meet it out and about??? i don't think he is aggressive, just massive and very very intimidating! if i do go that way, should i take a ball or something to throw for him, to distract him and get him away from the horses?? or would that just make it worse??

it's more a safety issue than anything really...

You live in Europe, no? Just asking because the US and western Europe have a different culture with regard to dogs. In the US, things are very much like "get your dog off my property before I shoot it!" and people are not likely to get away with that sort of thing. I have to assume that everyone in my neighborhood hates dogs and be respectful about keeping my dogs in my yard, keeping them quiet, and obeying the local leash law (illegal for dogs to run at large, must be on a 6' leash when off the property). I'm not sure if it is like that in Europe, it seems to me that people are much more relaxes about dogs (when I watch Victoria Stillwell they are always taking dogs to random fields and turning them loose off leash, letting them run up to strange dogs and people, etc). If I had an issue with a dog as you describe, I would first ask the owner to fix the situation. If that did not work I would report to Animal Control. If the dog was running at large off the property and I felt comfortable doing so, I would catch it and bring it to Animal Control. I've done this before, usually for the safety of the dog. If their owner refuses to properly care for and contain their dog, I will bring it in so that they have to pay the fine and deal with AC to get it back, or leave it there and a better owner can adopt it.
 
i'm wondering what is the best way to respond to a big boisterous dog like that when you meet it out and about??? i don't think he is aggressive, just massive and very very intimidating! if i do go that way, should i take a ball or something to throw for him, to distract him and get him away from the horses?? or would that just make it worse??
I agree talking to the owners and/or contacting 'Animal Control' would be preferable, but if that's not a viable option (rather un-French thing to do, I'm thinking?), then based on your description of a 'boisterous but nonaggressive' dog, I guess my resort for a horseback situation would be spraying the dog with a water pistol while saying "Go home." Are your horses afraid of dogs though? Because it'd have to be pretty close for you to have a good shot at it.
 
You live in Europe, no? Just asking because the US and western Europe have a different culture with regard to dogs. In the US, things are very much like "get your dog off my property before I shoot it!" and people are not likely to get away with that sort of thing. I have to assume that everyone in my neighborhood hates dogs and be respectful about keeping my dogs in my yard, keeping them quiet, and obeying the local leash law (illegal for dogs to run at large, must be on a 6' leash when off the property). I'm not sure if it is like that in Europe, it seems to me that people are much more relaxes about dogs (when I watch Victoria Stillwell they are always taking dogs to random fields and turning them loose off leash, letting them run up to strange dogs and people, etc). If I had an issue with a dog as you describe, I would first ask the owner to fix the situation. If that did not work I would report to Animal Control. If the dog was running at large off the property and I felt comfortable doing so, I would catch it and bring it to Animal Control. I've done this before, usually for the safety of the dog. If their owner refuses to properly care for and contain their dog, I will bring it in so that they have to pay the fine and deal with AC to get it back, or leave it there and a better owner can adopt it.

hi Liesje,
thanks so much for the info! yes, i'm in Europe and there are very strict laws about keeping dogs on leads in public places - they are not legally allowed to roam free in the town or countryside, so the owners really are breaking the law... it's very rural where they are and they basically treat the footpath as their own land! i was asked by the local stables to go and talk to them (the other option was going straight to the local police) as the dog owners are English and don't speak a word of French... they were very polite and i explained that their dog is very likely to cause a nasty accident if he runs at a horse - a rider could fall and injure themselves very badly or worse if a horse spooks and bolts, and i explained all the implications and risks... plus i told them their dog could also get kicked and injured as a result as well... they said yes yes, of course they would be careful but it's been hopeless... it jumps over their fence, and is not secured on the property - they just cannot control it - even on a lead - it just drags them - it chased a car the other day and dragged the owner thru an upturned picnic table and chairs! the locals are finding it incredibly comical how these people cannot control their dog! he knocked a teenager off his bike a few weeks ago as well...

i think we're going to have to take it further and go to the local mayor and then the police...

i was wondering about what to do on the spur of the moment if confronted with him as we're quite likely even to just see them around out walking in the area and i know they cannot hold him on a lead... i don't think he's aggressive, just massive and boisterous... i can't make the horses trot or canter away from him to avoid an incident as that would trigger their flight instinct and wreck all their training re. dogs (they can cope with "normal" dogs out and about, don't bat an eyelid with barking/growling dogs behind fences, and tense up and tolerate loose dogs to an extent, although my horse has been known to strike out at dogs if they push it too far...)... so i'm wondering if turning my horse around to face him and actually yelling at it and chasing it would be effective??? my horses would LOVE that, and would cope well, but would the dog actually turn and run or attack?? i would hate for my horses to get hurt...

it's just a horrible situation and it really worries me... it's very hard trying to get any officials to do anything here, and i just don't want it to take a nasty accident to make it happen... i will go talk to the Mayor this week - if he is around - everything closes down here in August for the holidays!
 
I agree talking to the owners and/or contacting 'Animal Control' would be preferable, but if that's not a viable option (rather un-French thing to do, I'm thinking?), then based on your description of a 'boisterous but nonaggressive' dog, I guess my resort for a horseback situation would be spraying the dog with a water pistol while saying "Go home." Are your horses afraid of dogs though? Because it'd have to be pretty close for you to have a good shot at it.

hi yolland!

thanks for that! yes, others have also suggested spraying him with a water pistol, but it would be a bit tricky to carry something like that around with me on horseback... i reckon that could spook my horses though, although they are used to being hosed down, and i could desensitise them quickly enough to it... someone warned against it though saying some dogs LOVE that and see it as a game and we would never get rid of him lol!! i thought a ball could be something i could fit in my pocket, and maybe that would distract him long enough til we'd gone by... i just don't know... the stable owners do want to go to the police but asked me to talk to the owners first (they're English and don't speak a word of French) just to see if it could be resolved amicably... they're very polite and friendly people and seemed to understand the situation, but the dog still jumps the fence and chases horses/bikes/cars...

i'm wondering about going on the offensive and getting my horses to turn and face him and chase him and drive him home, but wish i knew how he was likely to react... my horses are youngsters and have been doing so well with getting used to dogs, and can cope with "normal" dogs, small/normal sized dogs yapping around their feet and dogs on chains, or behind fences, but i fear this beasty is SO massive and exuberant he would blow their minds! he chased us the other day but we were far away enough for the horses not to register, but even from a distance he looked like a bear!

will definitely have to take it further, or at least encourage the stable yard to do so...
 
Can you shoot him with a paint ball gun or something like that? Some people carry mace or pepper spray but most things I could suggest will probably be an issue for the horses. I'm thinking for a Newf, getting shot with water is probably more like fun than it is punitive. Why can't they just put him on a tie-out if they insist on keeping him outside unsupervised? I've seen what dogs can do to horses, or what can happen when a dog spooks a horse. I might be tempted to just purchase the tie-out myself if the owners agreed. I have a large dog that is an escape artist and at our old house, he had to be on a tie-out inside the fenced yard because he could get out. It's not ideal but keeps him safe and is WAY cheaper than thousands of feet of electric fencing.
 
is a tie-out like a long chain?? something like that would be great! i did wonder about suggesting electric fencing -i guess they could section off an area around their home to keep him in - it would be more effective than the flimsy fence they have now (which he just jumps over!)... guess that could be quite expensive though... i doubt money is an issue with the owners though as they do look and act like they're rolling in it lol!!

don't think i could carry things like paint ball guns etc around with me on horseback so easily... plus it would be tricky with reins and things, especially if my horse was worried and spooky... although i reckon if he got too close within "shooting/spraying range" my horse would be likely to turn and double-barrel him or at least rear up and strike at/stamp on him, which wouldn't be pretty! (and i would probably fall off lol!)

do you think a Newf would turn and run away if chased on horseback with lots of shouting?? i'm still pondering that option lol!!

thanks so much for your input though, it's really helpful!
 
We live in the country and I've seen people chase dogs off on horseback a couple times, medium-size mutts. But personally I'd be really, really uncomfortable recommending that approach to anyone, because dogs do sometimes attack horses and that can really get ugly. Obviously it's more likely the dog would panic and flee if charged by a horse, and presumably most dog-on-horse attacks involve the reverse scenario of the horse fleeing the dog thus activating its prey drive, still...Plus, clearly this Newf already has issues with thinking it's the boss of its owners and its territory, it's not merely "doing its job" as a watchdog, so to me that's kind of a red flag right there? My thought with the water pistol was just that that could be a way to startle and confuse it without making it feel threatened, but I can see the point that a water dog like a Newf might see that as a game.
 
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I tie-out can be a chain. Ours is more like a rope that is actually metal and has a plastic coating over it. They also come with a large spring/coil at the snap, so if the dog hits the end they don't get their neck snapped. We don't have that kind though b/c Coke learned how long his rope was and if he was chasing another dog or squirrel he would stop before getting snapped. We attach ours to a heavy-duty ground stake that has a rotating attachment, so it doesn't get wound up if the dog moves in a circle.

Our tie-out is like this, you can get various lengths
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The coil kind has this on the dog end
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I use this stake (the heavy-duty, large dog one)
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NOT this one! even though it is the most common in pet stores here (my dog is large but only weighs 65 lbs and bent this one the first time he pulled)
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E-fencing usually works but it is expensive and absolutely requires training, you can't just install it and slap the collar on the dog especially a large dog that is already charging off the property. A dog like a Newf would need a good quality, properly fitted collar b/c of their size and fur. It's important the contacts maintain contact (obviously). The dog needs to be trained where the boundary is and how to respond to the tone warning vs. the electric stim (I won't say "shock" because I have put many e-collars on myself and it doesn't feel like a carpet shock).

Personally I would not attempt a stand-off with any dog especially a large one that like yolland says already has no qualms about charging out. I'm not a horse person so I can't really speak to the presence or behavior of a horse, but like I said I've seen what a determined dog can do to a horse :( Even a lesser bite that a human or other dog could easily recover from could devastate a horse or get infected and make them lame which is basically death.
 
oh god no, if there was any chance he would do anything other than turn and run, i just couldn't take the risk... he isn't aggressive apparently, but perhaps being assertive with him might not be so great... who knows how he would respond... especially seeing as he has complete disregard even for his owners... giving chase was suggested by a horsey person who has used that approach effectively (different dog and different horse though)... i think if we meet him out and about unexpectedly (i'm still avoiding the route past their house, but they do go out dog-walking in the woods and along other paths as well), i'm going to have to keep things as calm as possible...

definitely will be contacting the local mayor to see if he will have a word with them as well!!

thanks for the tie-out info Liesje! yes, i imagine he would need a really heavy-duty one due to his weight!
 
Periodically, I feel quite loved and honored that my dog is always licking me.

Then I see her licking the side of a garbage can and it puts everything into perspective.
 
hi Liesje,
thanks so much for the info! yes, i'm in Europe and there are very strict laws about keeping dogs on leads in public places - they are not legally allowed to roam free in the town or countryside, so the owners really are breaking the law... it's very rural where they are and they basically treat the footpath as their own land! i was asked by the local stables to go and talk to them (the other option was going straight to the local police) as the dog owners are English and don't speak a word of French... they were very polite and i explained that their dog is very likely to cause a nasty accident if he runs at a horse - a rider could fall and injure themselves very badly or worse if a horse spooks and bolts, and i explained all the implications and risks... plus i told them their dog could also get kicked and injured as a result as well... they said yes yes, of course they would be careful but it's been hopeless... it jumps over their fence, and is not secured on the property - they just cannot control it - even on a lead - it just drags them - it chased a car the other day and dragged the owner thru an upturned picnic table and chairs! the locals are finding it incredibly comical how these people cannot control their dog! he knocked a teenager off his bike a few weeks ago as well...

i think we're going to have to take it further and go to the local mayor and then the police...

i was wondering about what to do on the spur of the moment if confronted with him as we're quite likely even to just see them around out walking in the area and i know they cannot hold him on a lead... i don't think he's aggressive, just massive and boisterous... i can't make the horses trot or canter away from him to avoid an incident as that would trigger their flight instinct and wreck all their training re. dogs (they can cope with "normal" dogs out and about, don't bat an eyelid with barking/growling dogs behind fences, and tense up and tolerate loose dogs to an extent, although my horse has been known to strike out at dogs if they push it too far...)... so i'm wondering if turning my horse around to face him and actually yelling at it and chasing it would be effective??? my horses would LOVE that, and would cope well, but would the dog actually turn and run or attack?? i would hate for my horses to get hurt...

it's just a horrible situation and it really worries me... it's very hard trying to get any officials to do anything here, and i just don't want it to take a nasty accident to make it happen... i will go talk to the Mayor this week - if he is around - everything closes down here in August for the holidays!

Two words:

OBEDIENCE TRAINING!!!!

I have two dogs. Both went through obedience training. These dogs are my joys. Sure, they will still need reminders, but if I give a command, they are almost perfect at following it. And I have a Dalmatian - they are known for being a bit more rambunctious. :)

Obedience training also teaches the owner. Yes, a good class may be expensive. Mine went for "doggy boot camp" where they stayed overnight and were taught daily. But it was worth every cent. I was trained, they were trained and 5 years later, we are all very happy.

I recommend these people get their dog trained because if they do not, he will eventually cause problems and be put down. :sad:
 
I agree, obedience training for any dog any age, breed, or purpose is a must. I could train dogs for a living (I sure spend my living training and competing with my dogs!) but I still take the same beginner level group classes with the trainers I've surpassed/outgrew long ago because it's important to proof the dog in a group setting and have other people there to help with your timing and hold you accountable for training. I just signed Pan up for a class and it will be my fifth time taking this exact class with the same instructor. He is already way beyond the level of obedience that the class will teach, but I want the AKC "Canine Good Citizen" certificate for all my dogs and I like the chance to practice his obedience in a group setting around other dogs that are under control.
 
we had a good result with the scary Newfie while taking the horses out on a ride earlier!

lots of barking and growling from behind the flimsy wire fence - i don't think he wants to play! the horses were absolutely fine, but then he ducked thru a gap in the fence and came towards us - luckily he was on a tie-out - he could have come a lot closer as the lead was still slack but he sat down a couple of metres away and kept barking - at least he didn't try to jump up at the horses (which is what he normally does!) - we chatted a little while to the dog (trying to be friendly lol!!) and then the owner came out too and held him, and we were able to keep the horses nice and calm and then continue on our way... phew!!!

the dog definitely does need obedience training though - he did look a massive handful!!
 
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