For Dog Lovers.... Part 3 - Page 59 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Lemonade Stand
Click Here to Login
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 01-19-2011, 02:06 PM   #871
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 09:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yolland View Post
Nice pics, Lies. It's so impressive how you've worked your way up to becoming a fairly serious trainer and handler with a growing array of awards for your own dogs. When you refer to your goal of "promoting the breed," how does that tie in with the breeders' mission of improving the breed? Are professional working-dog breeders usually involved with the people who bought and show their dogs, or is it more a question of your wanting to show the American audience for working-dog competitions what the dogs from these lines can do? I've never even been to a dog show...
Thank you, yolland. I distinguish between promoting and improving the breed because I think "improvement" is really an impossible, impractical goal. The breed, as the standard requires and as was originally designed and intended is, IMO, perfect, but that is only a standard. No dog is perfect. I have my idea of what I think most closely matches the standard, and someone else might have a totally different idea. When I strongly feel I have such a dog, I want to "promote" my interpretation of the standard and show off my dog.

I don't really enjoy showing dogs (as in, conformation shows) but I feel that my dogs ARE correct in their conformation so I present them to a judge. If I were to offer my males at stud, I can't go around saying "my dogs are correct, move well, this and that..." and then have a bunch of excuses not to show them. I do not purchase a dog with a single goal in mind, I purchase a dog that has a combination of many traits I'm looking for and then go from there. If I wanted only to win conformation shows, I'd have much different dogs. In German shepherds there is a HUGE (IMO, irreconcilable) split between American show line dogs, German show line dogs, and working line dogs (the latter including all west German, DDR, Czech, Slovak, Dutch, and Belgian lines/types). When I enter a show already I am outside the American show line mold because I am showing west German working line and west German show line dogs. However with a dog I truly feel is correct, I have not had much trouble getting show titles and top ratings. There is the rating/title and then the actual place/rank. My dogs will never place high, they will not be winning the Group and competing in the Best in Show ring, but they are fully capable of earning the show champion titles, winning ribbons in the breed ring (winning against other GSDs in their class), and obtaining the highest ratings possible under the German system.

As far as working line GSDs go, the majority of breeders and competitors with these dogs have nothing to do with showing them. GSDs have something called the "breed survey". Once the dog is 2+ years old, has obtained either a Schutzhund or HGH (large flock herding) title, has received at least one show rating of "G" (gut/good) or better, and has the hips and elbows evaluated under the German system, the dog can be presented for the breed survey. There are a good number of working line breeders and competitors that DO use the breed survey system, mostly people who take conformation into account or maybe use it as a marketing point, that their dogs are correct and versatile. I think many of the working line dogs that do not do a breed survey would be perfectly capable of it but often the owners want nothing to do with anything even remotely related to "showing" a dog.

I am somewhat of a title collector as well. Most big time breeders and competitors focus on one area - Schutzhund or conformation/show, depending on the type of dog they prefer. I do Schutzhund (which includes tracking, obedience, and protection), conformation, herding, agility, dog diving, lure coursing, personal protection.... Because I do not breed and have so few dogs I can dabble in as many things as I like. Pan will be more of a Schutzhund dog because that is where he is best suited and could be a much higher level competition dog than Nikon. Nikon is more of a "jack of all trades, master of none".

The shows I attend are great socialization for puppies and young dogs. Since it's not at the top of my priority list as far as being competitive in this venue, I show puppies and young dogs, and once they are adult they have hopefully received their Champion title and "retire" from conformation unless I have extra time or money which isn't likely! I tend to front-load the conformation events since the Schutzhund training doesn't kick in until after teething and agility cannot be started until the dog is physically more mature in their joints. It's a very chaotic atmosphere, a great opportunity to expose the dog to many other dogs and people in close quarters, lots of noises and smells, having a judge "manhandle" the dog, being in a crate in a new environment, etc.

As for the Border Collie article, I agree with you. BC's are usually considered the "smartest" dog but that takes several factors into account. The BC is fairly biddable, a breed of dog bred to work closely with humans and enjoy a relationship with humans. There is drive, but then there is the threshold. A dog that is hyper and almost neurotic in how it acts towards the handler and how fast it seems to learn is not necessarily "drive". I prefer a dog with high drives AND a high threshold. This combination is more of a clear-headed, thinking dog. If you want a dog that is very fast, flashy, snappy looking obedience then you want a dog with high prey drive and a lower threshold so it learns at that neurotic pace. Some of the herding breeds like BCs and Aussies have that higher prey drive and a lower threshold and also have a bit sharper nerve, more of a reactive dog. Not always a bad thing, just depends on what you want and why you want it.

Belgian Malinois are another great example of very high drive dogs that almost look out of their minds doing obedience because they are SO precise and flashy. In the Schutzhund protection routine there is an exercise where the dog must heel alongside the handler five paces behind the helper (the attacker) and then the helper will turn and attack them. The dog is supposed to defend the handler. I was recently watching a trial video of this girl who has this Malinois that has amazing obedience, and during this exercise the dog was doing such a prancy, flashy "heads-up" heel looking straight up into the handler's eyes that he missed the attack! The helper was nearly on the handler by the time the dog noticed and counter attacked. In the grand scheme of things it was only a few points lost, but this is again where people differ between wanting high points or wanting a clear dog. Nikon may not prance around like a pony during his protection routine but never in a million years would he miss an attack on me. That dog's prey drive is so over the top in obedience mode that it clouds the dog's ability to think and be wary of his environment. I would trade 30 points from my obedience routines to have a dog that never misses an attack on the handler. But, it goes back to the beginning...I have my idea of what is correct, an someone else has theirs...
__________________

__________________
Liesje is offline  
Old 01-19-2011, 07:50 PM   #872
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 03:57 PM
Thanks for all the detail, that was really interesting! Especially the stuff about drive and threshold. I don't really see myself ever aspiring beyond dog as running/hiking buddy and obedient family companion, but in an armchair way, dogs as working animals with their own special attributes by breed is fascinating to me. I'd really like to see a couple dog shows/competitions someday, just to watch up close how different handlers interact with their dogs and the differences in how they respond...
__________________

__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline  
Old 01-19-2011, 10:24 PM   #873
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 09:57 AM
You're welcome. Dogs can best be understood through operant conditioning. If you only ever read one book pertaining to dog behavior it should be Don't Shoot the Dog! by Karen Pryor. Often people send me links to "studies" about dog training or communication and to be honest, none of them ever mean anything to me because they always seem to be examining how dogs learn or communicate through the lens of how humans learn and communicate, or they reach very vague or "duh" conclusions that any half-decent dog trainer could have told you. A human is a human and a dog is a dog. I'd rather read articles written by some of the top trainers or animal behaviorists. I am interested in how dogs and humans communicate with each other, not in trying to understand all the nuances of dog-dog communication or trying to train my dog to communicate more like you and me.

Sometimes these studies sterilize everything so that the relationship between dog/handler and the genetics of the dog become control factors. My dog Nikon will alert (go to the end of the leash and bark), bite, release, and recall to heel position on command but he won't do that for Phil or for you. Also he is genetically high defense and high threshold. How he trains and works has everything to do with his relationship with ME and his unique balance of drives that is controlled by genetics. I'm not saying the relationship means he "loves" me and protects me because he is loyal to me, only that a relationship exists and it is not the same as a relationship with my husband or my dad or my friends. For all I know it is entirely self-serving: the dog's defense of his handler is a form of "resource guarding" because he understands that I provide food, water, toys, shelter, and fun. When someone contacts me for training or behavior advice I need to know what is the breed of dog and what were the previous interactions and training attempts like, can't read from some generic script.

If you want a basic understanding of dog training and behavior you have to understand the four quadrants of operant conditioning and that genetics is always going to dictate everything about the dog. If your dog has a genetic spectrum from red to yellow you can train him a behavior in the orange but not the blue.


And if you want to see a show come to the UKC Premier! Conformation, terrier races, dock diving, obedience, agility, rally, lure coursing, bitework/protection... has it all.
__________________
Liesje is offline  
Old 01-21-2011, 01:03 PM   #874
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 09:57 AM
I don't normally use PhotoShop but I've been playing around with Pioneer Woman's black and white action:

Pan enjoying about a month back (before his black fur came in and his eyes darkened)


Nikon doing the shake, Aug 2010


Coke pondering life, last week
__________________
Liesje is offline  
Old 01-26-2011, 11:43 AM   #875
ONE
love, blood, life
 
mad1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Angie Jolie lover from Belfast Norn Ireland. I LOVE YOU ANGIE! Im a Bono fan!
Posts: 13,153
Local Time: 03:57 PM
jaysus, first pic looks like a shot from something like..........dunno, Chronicles of Narnia
__________________
mad1 is offline  
Old 02-07-2011, 08:58 AM   #876
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 09:57 AM
YouTube - PanBitework 0001
__________________
Liesje is offline  
Old 02-07-2011, 09:50 AM   #877
ONE
love, blood, life
 
mad1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Angie Jolie lover from Belfast Norn Ireland. I LOVE YOU ANGIE! Im a Bono fan!
Posts: 13,153
Local Time: 03:57 PM
can someone tell me, if a dog or dogs are old, can it be normal if they are kinda overweight?
__________________
mad1 is offline  
Old 02-07-2011, 12:35 PM   #878
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 09:57 AM
Older dogs often get overweight b/c they aren't as active and/or have other problems that limit their activity, but IMO it should not be "normal" (as in, excused). They need to be at a healthy weight or it will cause more stress on their already aging joints. Swimming is good for older dogs, good exercise with no impact.
__________________
Liesje is offline  
Old 02-07-2011, 04:05 PM   #879
War Child
 
samralf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 999
Local Time: 10:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liesje View Post
He looks really good!!!!
__________________
samralf is offline  
Old 02-08-2011, 12:22 AM   #880
Blue Crack Addict
 
Reggo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 26,990
Local Time: 08:57 AM
We had a dog adopt us as her people tonight. My mom went outside and she was on our porch, sniffing around. My mom checked her out, she's been very well taken care of, but she has no collar. So since it was snowing and supposed to get below freezing tonight, we took her in. And she is the sweetest thing. She even loves my brother, despite him poking and pulling at her. We're going to try to find her people, but we'd love to keep her.
__________________
Reggo is offline  
Old 02-08-2011, 08:59 AM   #881
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 09:57 AM
Aw, that's very kind. I would bring her to a vet or animal shelter and have them scan for a microchip. Also call the local animal shelters and tell them you have the dog. Most owners looking for their dog will call the animal shelter first to see if it has been reported. If the dog appears well taken care of, generally someone is looking for it and the dog has not been lost for too long. Even after just a few days being lost a dog can start to look very ragged (my dog was lost for three days and when I got her back she was covered in prickers and could barely walk because her feet were sore and bleeding from searching for us). If it's a case of someone not doing a good job containing their dog and allowing it to roam, then you may be better of bringing the dog to the animal shelter once the owner is identified so that the owner has to pay the fine and get the lecture from them on allowing their pet to be in danger. It could just be a matter of the dog getting away by accident though, so I would not keep the dog without an effort to make sure the owner is not looking. When my dog got away (she was being cared for by someone else and got away from them), we had an entire neighborhood of people looking for her day and night, fliers posted everywhere, alerted the police, the animal control, went to all the dog shelters, and she was still lost for three days. In the end she got so tired of trying to find me that she went up to a girl who looks like me and the girl got my number off her collar. I was worried sick that someone would take her in without reporting her missing.
__________________
Liesje is offline  
Old 02-09-2011, 11:36 AM   #882
Blue Crack Addict
 
Reggo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 26,990
Local Time: 08:57 AM
We found the pug's people. She lived only two doors down! They came looking for her yesterday. We're glad she's home, but she was the sweetest thing.
__________________
Reggo is offline  
Old 02-09-2011, 11:54 AM   #883
ONE
love, blood, life
 
mad1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Angie Jolie lover from Belfast Norn Ireland. I LOVE YOU ANGIE! Im a Bono fan!
Posts: 13,153
Local Time: 03:57 PM
aww Lies, that must have had you round the bend with worry.


mind you, when we had Rocky, he too had gone missing for I think a day or two and the milkman found him prob like couple of streets away, possibly round near the house he used to live in (the family moved), and managed to coax him to follow the milkfloat round to our house, LOL!

__________________
mad1 is offline  
Old 02-09-2011, 12:16 PM   #884
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 09:57 AM
Yes it was bad, and especially for the people that lost her, they felt terrible and I felt terrible for them, but I didn't have the bad gut feeling that I get sometimes so I knew she'd come back eventually. We had two calls with legitimate sightings, went to one girl's house but she didn't have my dog (a twin!), and then finally she was caught and returned to me. She could barely walk for three days b/c the pads on her feet were torn from trotting around trying to find home.
__________________
Liesje is offline  
Old 02-14-2011, 02:38 AM   #885
Refugee
 
CrashedCarDriver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Turkmenbashin'
Posts: 1,607
Local Time: 01:57 AM
Here is a video tribute to my late pet

YouTube - Pip.mpg
__________________

__________________
CrashedCarDriver is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com