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Old 06-22-2009, 03:51 PM   #631
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Here's Samson, sniffing around the backyard...

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Old 06-22-2009, 04:27 PM   #632
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Samson!! I love collies. I have been looking for a good collie breeder for over a year now and I only found one. They are so hard to find anymore.
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Old 06-22-2009, 04:29 PM   #633
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Yeah she did, haven't seen her in over a month. The club they were going to join is having a show next month, but I'm not going. Had to draw the line somewhere, my bank account is not a bottomless pit!

Are you going to the big event this October in Springfield, Ohio??
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Old 06-22-2009, 04:44 PM   #634
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Is that the nationals? Doubt it, I'm not doing much AKC stuff any more and I don't care for American line conformation at all.

There are WDA shows in Ill. Oct 4 and Oct. 17 so I'll probably do one or both of those. There's also one Sept. 12 but that's the U2 weekend, probably too much to do a Cubs game, two concerts, and a dog show in one weekend!
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Old 06-22-2009, 04:54 PM   #635
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Drats! I was hoping it wouldn't be only American lines.
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Old 06-22-2009, 05:12 PM   #636
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I think they do sports so you will likely see a lot of other lines doing that. I know a few people from the GSD board are going for agility. Bretta is really good, she is working lines.
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Old 06-22-2009, 06:22 PM   #637
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Reggo, we need pics of your dog!!!

As for the training issue, it is simply that, a training issue. I'm not sure how the dog was being trained or what methods you use, but all those theories about "dominance" and being an "alpha" are very outdated, no longer hold any weight when dealing with training domestic dogs. Which actually makes your problem a lot easier, you do not have a dominance problem, you have a young dog that just doesn't know what you want, yet.

Basically it boils down to this: dogs do what works for them. They do not want to cause conflict, to constantly try to dominate everything. They just want food, toys, and love. If you show them the fastest way to get those things and are consistent, they will do it for you.

How have you been training the dog to come to you and go in the crate? I can give you some great suggestions but it's easier with a little more background.
I'll post some piccies of him tomorrow, got a few cute ones this afternoon.

It's just frustrating he knows the command, "Patches, come," he just chooses to ignore me, it seems. Or worse, he gets within a few feet and his attention is diverted to a toy, and then I call him again and he ignores me and hides behind the couch or rockets off to some other part of the house.

Going in his crate is the worst. He's fast and hard to catch cause he has too many hiding places with more than one way out. Anyway, here's a walkthrough of me trying to put Patches in his crate:

"Patches! Come!"
Patches stands at the end of the hall, looking at me.
"Patches, come here, baby."
Patches glances away, then looks at me, smiling, not moving.
"Patches!"
Patches pads down the hall, getting as close as he dares. he sniffs the floor or the wall, keeping an eye on me.
I, stupidly, reach out for his collar.
He ducks, barks, and runs behind the couch where he knows I can't get him.
I stand up, shake his box of treats.
Patches comes running for a treat.
"you want a treat? Go night-night(in his crate)."
Patches stands where he is, thinking about it.
I offer the treat again. "Go night-night."
Patches jumps on me, trying to get it without going in his crate.
I give him love, but make him get down, then throw the treat in his crate.
He follows it in.
I close the door behind him.

And that if he's being cooperative. Sometimes, at midnight when everyone else is asleep, he'll decide to bark at me and not be quiet when I tell him to. Going outside has become a struggle. We know he needs to go out, but he will outright refuse. That usually ends up in grabbing his collar and forcing him outside. But then he potties and runs and plays and is a happy dog. I think he's just stubborn.
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Old 06-22-2009, 07:36 PM   #638
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If he doesn't come when you say come, he doesn't really understand it and/or he doesn't have a good reason to come. If the dog can't perform the command with at least 85% consistency in high distraction, he doesn't actually know it. Due to his breed, you will get a bit more hardness than some others, but that would come through more in how the dog works (like if he were on cattle) than the basic training.

The recall and the crate training are really the hardest things for a dog because they aren't natural dog behaviors. Dogs don't recall each other or lock each other in a cage, but both are completely necessary for being safe as a domestic animal. Now some dogs take to the crate instantly, and some dogs never stray far enough from the owner to even need a recall (my Kenya is both), but because it's easy for some dogs doesn't mean the rest of us will have any better luck! I have one dog that is over two years old and has more training than an average pet and at this point I will never trust him off lead because to him *anything* is more fun than coming back to me. It doesn't matter what treat or toy or game I have, the stranger jogging by or the rabbit in the bush is always way more exciting. I also have a dog that took longer to crate train because he was from a large litter and being shoved into this cold, small space with no siblings was like his idea of hell, lol. So, I do a lot of extensive training with my dogs but I also know exactly where you are coming from.

For the come/recall, it's really really super important that you always set the dog up for success. Don't use the command if you think the dog might not obey. At this point you may need to start over using a new word (yeah I've had to do this a few times!). Nikon's gone from "come!" to a rattle sound to "Here!" Anyway, start indoors and get whatever treat or toy or both is irresistible to the dog. For Nikon that is a ball and for Coke that is chicken breast. Build an association with the new word, so sit with the dog and say "come!" (or whatever the word is) and give the dog the food or toy, over and over and over, so the dog associates the command with fun/yummy. Make sure when you say it, it doesn't sound angry. Once the dog knows that you have good treats or toys and that "come" is pretty awesome, put the dog on a leash. Start doing very SHORT recalls with very little distraction. I would start inside with a 6' leash (or if your dog can sit and stay, you can just do that). Again, it's crucial that the dog always come when you say the word and that you are not pushing too hard too fast. Don't give the dog an opportunity to disobey. If you happen to be outside and need to get your dog while you are still in the process of training, just go over and get him rather than using the new word too soon and getting blown off. As you progress, add in distance and distraction, but only one or the other (ie, don't go from 6 feet indoors to 30 feet at the dog park). When you move outdoors, even in your own yard, keeping using a line so that when you say "come!" you immediately reel the dog in to you, give him the reward and praise him, and then (this is important) let him go again. Once you get longer recalls with more distraction, don't always make the dog go inside. That makes a negative association. Call him, reel him in, reward him, then say "ok!" and let him go play for a few more minutes.

There's also two "games" I like that help with recalls. First, restrained recalls. This uses a dog's drive and desire to be with you to build the recall. Have someone else hold your dog by the collar or leash and ignore the dog while you walk away, then start calling your dog and waving your toy or treat, so the dog is pulling and whining to get to you. Then the other person lets go and your dog charges over to you and you reward him and play with him. The second game is similar and is helpful if there's two owners that need to recall the dog. Basically you each have the rewards and take turns calling the dog back and forth. Like regular training, start indoors at short distances and build from there. Once one person has recalled and rewarded the dog, that person goes "dead" (ignores the dog) and the other person calls.

You can also just work on your dog wanting to be with you in general by doing ridiculous stuff with the dog. Sometimes I get on my hands and knees and play bow at my dogs like I'm a dog. They love it when my husband does jumping jacks at them or rolls on the ground like a dog. Another thing to try for a recall is making a noise to get the dog's attention and then running away from the dog. Dogs like to chase each other and can't stand when one dog is having more fun, so naturally if you are running they come over to see what you are doing.

You don't want to have to bribe your dog or catch your dog. The recall is one thing that should be trained as a positive thing using baby steps to build. Otherwise, it is unfair to label the dog as stubborn or disobedient if he's not been given the chance to learn what it means and have it be something that he wants to do. Dogs are very contextual which is why taking baby steps is important. To a dog, the outside is not the same as the inside. Even different rooms, or facing different directions in the same room are different things to the dog (for real).

Sorry this is long! Hopefully it helps.
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Old 06-22-2009, 11:58 PM   #639
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Here's Samson, sniffing around the backyard...

That's a fabulous photo.

Reggo, I tell ya, a sheep.... Or 300

I'm really getting convinced Archie has red stumpy cattle in him. I'm also getting closer to caving in and having one of those wanky suburban DNA tests done on him, just so I can get a clear idea of what I am up against. He's smart, but cunning. Loyal, but protective. Active and keen, but escapist. And he tries to round up birds. Don't even ask me how this works! I'm destined to never have a normal dog. Anyway, stumpy cattle is a breed I know painfully little about. Thank god for google, and my new vet who is used to breeds like him, due to where I live.
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Old 06-23-2009, 01:01 AM   #640
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If he doesn't come when you say come, he doesn't really understand it and/or he doesn't have a good reason to come. If the dog can't perform the command with at least 85% consistency in high distraction, he doesn't actually know it. Due to his breed, you will get a bit more hardness than some others, but that would come through more in how the dog works (like if he were on cattle) than the basic training.

The recall and the crate training are really the hardest things for a dog because they aren't natural dog behaviors. Dogs don't recall each other or lock each other in a cage, but both are completely necessary for being safe as a domestic animal. Now some dogs take to the crate instantly, and some dogs never stray far enough from the owner to even need a recall (my Kenya is both), but because it's easy for some dogs doesn't mean the rest of us will have any better luck! I have one dog that is over two years old and has more training than an average pet and at this point I will never trust him off lead because to him *anything* is more fun than coming back to me. It doesn't matter what treat or toy or game I have, the stranger jogging by or the rabbit in the bush is always way more exciting. I also have a dog that took longer to crate train because he was from a large litter and being shoved into this cold, small space with no siblings was like his idea of hell, lol. So, I do a lot of extensive training with my dogs but I also know exactly where you are coming from.

For the come/recall, it's really really super important that you always set the dog up for success. Don't use the command if you think the dog might not obey. At this point you may need to start over using a new word (yeah I've had to do this a few times!). Nikon's gone from "come!" to a rattle sound to "Here!" Anyway, start indoors and get whatever treat or toy or both is irresistible to the dog. For Nikon that is a ball and for Coke that is chicken breast. Build an association with the new word, so sit with the dog and say "come!" (or whatever the word is) and give the dog the food or toy, over and over and over, so the dog associates the command with fun/yummy. Make sure when you say it, it doesn't sound angry. Once the dog knows that you have good treats or toys and that "come" is pretty awesome, put the dog on a leash. Start doing very SHORT recalls with very little distraction. I would start inside with a 6' leash (or if your dog can sit and stay, you can just do that). Again, it's crucial that the dog always come when you say the word and that you are not pushing too hard too fast. Don't give the dog an opportunity to disobey. If you happen to be outside and need to get your dog while you are still in the process of training, just go over and get him rather than using the new word too soon and getting blown off. As you progress, add in distance and distraction, but only one or the other (ie, don't go from 6 feet indoors to 30 feet at the dog park). When you move outdoors, even in your own yard, keeping using a line so that when you say "come!" you immediately reel the dog in to you, give him the reward and praise him, and then (this is important) let him go again. Once you get longer recalls with more distraction, don't always make the dog go inside. That makes a negative association. Call him, reel him in, reward him, then say "ok!" and let him go play for a few more minutes.

There's also two "games" I like that help with recalls. First, restrained recalls. This uses a dog's drive and desire to be with you to build the recall. Have someone else hold your dog by the collar or leash and ignore the dog while you walk away, then start calling your dog and waving your toy or treat, so the dog is pulling and whining to get to you. Then the other person lets go and your dog charges over to you and you reward him and play with him. The second game is similar and is helpful if there's two owners that need to recall the dog. Basically you each have the rewards and take turns calling the dog back and forth. Like regular training, start indoors at short distances and build from there. Once one person has recalled and rewarded the dog, that person goes "dead" (ignores the dog) and the other person calls.

You can also just work on your dog wanting to be with you in general by doing ridiculous stuff with the dog. Sometimes I get on my hands and knees and play bow at my dogs like I'm a dog. They love it when my husband does jumping jacks at them or rolls on the ground like a dog. Another thing to try for a recall is making a noise to get the dog's attention and then running away from the dog. Dogs like to chase each other and can't stand when one dog is having more fun, so naturally if you are running they come over to see what you are doing.

You don't want to have to bribe your dog or catch your dog. The recall is one thing that should be trained as a positive thing using baby steps to build. Otherwise, it is unfair to label the dog as stubborn or disobedient if he's not been given the chance to learn what it means and have it be something that he wants to do. Dogs are very contextual which is why taking baby steps is important. To a dog, the outside is not the same as the inside. Even different rooms, or facing different directions in the same room are different things to the dog (for real).

Sorry this is long! Hopefully it helps.
This will help! I think puppy classes will also help. Thank you!

He's got a bad habit of stealing food off the table, even in front of us. he's fed 2 cups of chow in the morning and 1 cup in the evening (probably too much as it is) and he snarfs food all the time! He knows "Get down!" That one he has selective listening for, I know it. Cause about 75% of the time he'll behave. The other 25%, he's inhaled the sandwich or whatever before the words have finished leaving my mouth.

What do you think of the toilet paper thing?
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Old 06-23-2009, 02:21 AM   #641
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The toilet paper thing is just what some dogs like. I had a cocker who liked it a lot. But he also ate many things which defied understanding. Our vet said toilet paper was nothing but expensive and annoying.
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Old 06-23-2009, 08:08 AM   #642
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This will help! I think puppy classes will also help. Thank you!

He's got a bad habit of stealing food off the table, even in front of us. he's fed 2 cups of chow in the morning and 1 cup in the evening (probably too much as it is) and he snarfs food all the time! He knows "Get down!" That one he has selective listening for, I know it. Cause about 75% of the time he'll behave. The other 25%, he's inhaled the sandwich or whatever before the words have finished leaving my mouth.

What do you think of the toilet paper thing?
It really depends on the dog. Personally, I don't do a lot of training with counter surfing and such, because a dog is a dog and most dogs will steal food when no one is looking, no matter how much training is done. So, we don't really have food out on the tables and counters when no one is there. If the dogs are rude when we eat, they get put outside or crated. I don't want to constantly be telling my dog "no, get down" every few minutes. If he can't respect my personal space then he loses his privilege of being in that area when food is present.

One thing that helps is training a default behavior. I reinforce a lot of "downs" with my dogs even though it's the first thing they learn as a puppy. So, when they are begging they come over and do a down in front of me, rather than getting in my face and taking food. They think if they do the down I will feed them. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. I feed them just often enough so that they keep doing the down

Not sure about the TP thing. My dogs aren't allowed in my bathroom or that area of the house so I've never dealt with that.
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Old 06-23-2009, 10:48 AM   #643
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It really depends on the dog. Personally, I don't do a lot of training with counter surfing and such, because a dog is a dog and most dogs will steal food when no one is looking, no matter how much training is done. So, we don't really have food out on the tables and counters when no one is there. If the dogs are rude when we eat, they get put outside or crated. I don't want to constantly be telling my dog "no, get down" every few minutes. If he can't respect my personal space then he loses his privilege of being in that area when food is present.

One thing that helps is training a default behavior. I reinforce a lot of "downs" with my dogs even though it's the first thing they learn as a puppy. So, when they are begging they come over and do a down in front of me, rather than getting in my face and taking food. They think if they do the down I will feed them. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. I feed them just often enough so that they keep doing the down

Not sure about the TP thing. My dogs aren't allowed in my bathroom or that area of the house so I've never dealt with that.
Sounds like a lot of retraining is in order for Patches! He really is a good dog.

And here's a few pictures of him.




Caught in the act.


"Here's the dog food. Feed me."
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Old 06-23-2009, 10:56 AM   #644
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Interesting to see that Patches' Jack Russel blood has started to shown a bit more as he's gotten a little older, he seemed more distinctively Heeler in the older shots. Still a cutie, though! Never had the toilet paper thing with my dog, who also loves herding, but otherwise the problems sound all too familiar. Do you play ball with him much? Get a few different sized ones and see which one he prefers - he'll treat the play as 'work' and might chill out a bit indoors. Guess that's a pretty simple answer, but good luck with him!
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Old 06-23-2009, 11:31 AM   #645
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Aw he's cute! So he's a Jack Russell/heeler mix? That is one fiesty mix! I can see why he'd be giving you a run for your money! Both breeds are very smart, energetic, can be somewhat stubborn and hard. Very tenacious dogs because they are bred for dangerous work. A huge personality in a little package. Gotta stay one step ahead!
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