Books Part V, featuring Benny Profane and the Whole Sick Crew

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I got a question for everyone: is it imperative for you to like the main character in order to enjoy a book?

I saw this essay on HuffPo about how readers today seem to want to relate to the main character.



Evan Gottlieb: Do We Need to Identify With a Protagonist to Enjoy a Novel?

I'm the kind of reader who needs a "psychologically plausible" character than someone who I would want in my everyday life. I have considered putting down books because of characters I didn't like, but there were other reasons to continue reading besides them. There's more to a book rather than the main character, to me at least.

So, what's everyone's criteria?

while it's true several of my all-time favorite book/movie/tv characters have been ones i can relate to, i wouldn't say it's necessary. i wouldn't say i relate to a single character from mad men, but i love that show. interesting characters are much more important.

in order to be interesting (because holy vagueness, batman), they can't be one-dimensional--i'm a sucker for moral ambiguity and gray areas. i generally hate good guys who only do good things, are always happy, constantly helping others, and are nice to everyone. i also hate bad guys who want to take over the world just because they're the bad guy with no motivation other than they're a villain and that's what villains do. but pretty much anything between can be acceptable.

and once some motivations are established, a basic characterization is fleshed out, they're allowed to go through changes and develop, but nothing disappoints me more than when a well-crafted character starts doing things for the sake of the plot. for example, in the last book in a particularly lengthy series, my favorite character had some weird moments as peacekeeper, voice of reason, and fell for a couple tricks in ways that i find it difficult to believe he ever would have been cast in previous books. yes, he's gone through a number of changes and developed considerably over the course of those books (and i am biased because i wanted an epic and awesome death for him in the second to last book, and was rather bummed out i didn't get it), but the author also spent most of his other scenes making sure to point out that even though he's slightly more patient, worldly, and less likely to hold a grudge, he's still going to put himself first, is still a cynical, sarcastic, often scary, and dangerous character. i'd much rather have killed him off entirely than have to suffer through him breaking up fights, giving advice to others/sitting and chatting, being easily seduced by succubi, pretty much everything he did in the book after the one where he should have died.
 
I've finished Cloud Atlas.

It's certainly a very imaginative, ingenious and immensely ambitious book. As expected, it was somewhat uneven and a bit anti-climactic, but the latter is also due to the wonderful structuring of the book, going reverse in time (or not?) in the second half, leaving the stories that left me slightly underwhelmed at the beginning in the end. The futuristic chapters were excellent, especially the Sonmi section which is one of the better dystopian stories I've read. The Luisa Rey storyline was pretty much a trashy thriller with some great and some cringe-worthy moments, but it was certainly an entertaining read. I love the meta-feel of the novel, where my exact criticisms about it get reflected in the book itself in the next chapter.

So, although I do have some problems with it, it was a fascinating read. I'm curious about the movie. I know that it got very polarizing reactions, which is not surprising since there are so many things that could go wrong with it. It already seems miscast in places to me (Tom Hanks as Zachry??), and I've heard about some actors actually getting "yellow faces" which is pretty fucking ridiculous, but the visuals look fascinating and both Tykwer and the Wachowskis seem to have their heart in the right place.

Next up for books - Infinite Jest. Now this is going to be quite a journey, since I've never read a 1000+ page novel before. David Foster Wallace was such a fascinating individual. I've read his essays on Lynch and Kafka and we seem to have similar tastes and conclusions about their work (although I could never articulate or go so much in depth into them as he did of course). I've also read his short story "The Depressed Person" and I love his style of mixing tragic with hilarious. In any case, it seems his writing is my cup of tea.
 
Finished 1984, at a breakneck speed I rarely reach with any novel. What an absorbing, terrifying experience. The world Orwell creates is so well thought out and logically structured that the fantastical elements of the story begin to feel scarily real. The prose itself is thought provoking and deliciously eloquent. It's one of those great novels that I could discuss for hours.
 
1984 certainly deserves a re-read. This time in the original language. Orwell was a genius. Homage to Catalonia is a wonderful piece of work.
 
I've finished Cloud Atlas.

It's certainly a very imaginative, ingenious and immensely ambitious book. As expected, it was somewhat uneven and a bit anti-climactic, but the latter is also due to the wonderful structuring of the book, going reverse in time (or not?) in the second half, leaving the stories that left me slightly underwhelmed at the beginning in the end. The futuristic chapters were excellent, especially the Sonmi section which is one of the better dystopian stories I've read. The Luisa Rey storyline was pretty much a trashy thriller with some great and some cringe-worthy moments, but it was certainly an entertaining read. I love the meta-feel of the novel, where my exact criticisms about it get reflected in the book itself in the next chapter.

So, although I do have some problems with it, it was a fascinating read. I'm curious about the movie. I know that it got very polarizing reactions, which is not surprising since there are so many things that could go wrong with it. It already seems miscast in places to me (Tom Hanks as Zachry??), and I've heard about some actors actually getting "yellow faces" which is pretty fucking ridiculous, but the visuals look fascinating and both Tykwer and the Wachowskis seem to have their heart in the right place.

Next up for books - Infinite Jest. Now this is going to be quite a journey, since I've never read a 1000+ page novel before. David Foster Wallace was such a fascinating individual. I've read his essays on Lynch and Kafka and we seem to have similar tastes and conclusions about their work (although I could never articulate or go so much in depth into them as he did of course). I've also read his short story "The Depressed Person" and I love his style of mixing tragic with hilarious. In any case, it seems his writing is my cup of tea.


Glad you enjoyed the book. As for the film, it bothers me to see the term "yellowface" thrown around, because in actuality ALL the main actors get to play as characters of other races. That means Halle Berry and Bae Doona are both in "whiteface" too. The idea of allowing these actors to cross lines usually preventing them from taking these kinds of roles is a great one, and underlines the themes of the novel. It should never have been controversial because it was about inclusion.

Infinite Jest is a monster, but you'll be laughing so hard through much of it you won't mind the commitment.
 
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Finished 1984, at a breakneck speed I rarely reach with any novel. What an absorbing, terrifying experience. The world Orwell creates is so well thought out and logically structured that the fantastical elements of the story begin to feel scarily real. The prose itself is thought provoking and deliciously eloquent. It's one of those great novels that I could discuss for hours.

I still remember that book. The ending reminded me of North Korea (or how I would breakdown if I lived there). The book will last and last. Maybe if in 300 years there are no dictatorships the book will finally be irrelevant.
 
Just finished a couple of books, one of which was sweet (What Alice Forgot by Liane Moriarty - Alice bonks her head and wakes up having forgotten the last ten years), one of which was just okay (The Painted Girls by Cathy Marie Buchanan - ballet girls at the Paris opera, Degas, murder, etc).

Then started a book I'm absolutely in love with: Gilead by Marilynne Robinson. I've heard raves about it for years, but every time I'd read a description of it (aging minister in the 1950s pens a letter to his young son) it didn't appeal to me.

So glad I finally picked it up. It's just gorgeous.
 
Infinite Jest is a monster, but you'll be laughing so hard through much of it you won't mind the commitment.

I'm about 80 pages in and I'm laughing throughout. The James Incandenza filmography has to be one of the funniest things I've ever read. And I almost skipped it when I saw it was an 8-page footnote!

In any case, it's not an easy read. This will definitely take a couple of months.
 
Yeah the filmography had me in stitches.

Not sure if you've arrived at the Eschaton play-by-play part yet but that was also a hilarious highlight.
 
Even though the season doesn't start until September, I've started my opera reading. I like to read the source material for the operas I'm going to see.

Carmen, by Prosper Merimee.

I know the story to this, but I thought it would be fun to read the novella anyway. The edition I have is a cheap pocket book from 1888, so that was fun. I also had the music in my head as certain scenes came up. The book differs from the story considerably, but the core story is still there. Nobody likes the Gypsies.



Billy Budd, by Herman Melville.

Oh Good Lord. I remember some of you slogging through Moby Dick a while back, and I hadn't read any Melville since college and it wasn't Moby Dick, so I wasn't able to join in. Jeez. This guy might be mistaken for a hack, with all the asides and allusions. At times the English major in me appreciated some of the writing, but mostly I was just exasperated. I'm not worried about the opera; its Benjamin Britten, and he's wonderful.
 
I was never forced to read Moby Dick, but instead had to slog through Billy Budd. I thought I was off the hook, but somehow, I suspect Budd is worse. I can't remember a damn thing except it was the most miserable reading experience of my life.
 
I'm starting work on my second novel and I'm looking for some inspiration. Hoping you guys could recommend me something. This novel is in the crime/thriller genre, but it has some horror/supernatural elements and I'm looking for some creepy, atmospheric novels to help get me into that frame of mind. They don't necessarily have to fit into any one of those genres, but they likely would.
 
James Ellroy's The Big Nowhere comes to mind. It's probably the bleakest out of all his novels and the most psychologically affecting. Definitely creepy and atmospheric, if you're into noir.
 
How does it compare with the rest of the LA Quartet? I'm only familiar with his work through film adaptations. Is there a reason to read 1-4 in a row or are they not that closely connected?
 
The Black Dahlia is not as connected story-wise as the other three. The Big Nowhere introduces characters and storylines that will be important to the plot of LA Confidential and White Jazz. Although I'd recommend all four of them. I do feel The Big Nowhere is the creepiest and most atmospheric of them all. Certainly my favourite.
 
I think The Black Dahlia is one of the finest books of the genre, but they're all fantastic in their own way.

You might want to consider going back to one of Ellroy's inspirations though: Jim Thompson set the bar for really dark crime fiction, and you could probably polish off a couple of his novels in the time it would take you to read The Big Nowhere or L.A. Confidential.
 
This summer I've finally started reading. :lol: It seems like an odd thing to say, but apart from the usual suspects like Harry Potter, LOTR and A Song of Ice and Fire, I didn't really read for pleasure.

I've read a few Flemish classics and I'm thinking of reading some of the classics in Russian/English/American literature. I just have to figure out where I'm going to start.

I also love reading about science. Recently finished two Einstein books. One biography and one by the man himself explaining relativity. I read the latter because I noticed I wouldn't learn it at college (we only saw Newtonian physics and I wanted to know what Einstein was all about). I can't say I understand it all but at least I know the general principals. I've started A Short History of Nearly Everything now. Thanks Jive for recommending that one in one of these threads. It's an easy way to learn some things about (the history of) science. And it's also fun to see that you already know quite a bit about some topics.
 
The opera reading continues:

The Bride of Lammermoor, by Sir Walter Scott.

Even though I haven't read anything by Scott before this, it felt like I was getting back to my English Lit. origins. A well-written, early Victorian novel can really do the trick. Lots of nobility, tragedy, humor, and all Scot all the time. Some of the Scottish dialect made my eyes cross a bit, but it was a terrific book.
 
I think The Black Dahlia is one of the finest books of the genre, but they're all fantastic in their own way.

You might want to consider going back to one of Ellroy's inspirations though: Jim Thompson set the bar for really dark crime fiction, and you could probably polish off a couple of his novels in the time it would take you to read The Big Nowhere or L.A. Confidential.

Just started the Killer Inside of Me. Highly unsettling, to say the least.
 
I've read a few Flemish classics and I'm thinking of reading some of the classics in Russian/English/American literature. I just have to figure out where I'm going to start.

Stay away from Tolstoy! And only read Pushkin if you read Russian. Dostoevsky isn't exactly light summer reading (I remember seeing a New Yorker cartoon a few years ago with this guy reading crime and punishment while sitting on the beach, some KGB-like guy shows up and tells him he has to go with them, caption about how one does not simply read Dostoevsky on vacation), or the best starting point. But my man Gogol, dead souls is brilliant. The overcoat, the nose, wholly enjoyably stuff. I'm woefully ignorant of post-soviet Russian literature--about as unfamiliar with it as I am with classic American literature.
 
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