Youth Model Shotguns

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A Christmas present turned deadly...I had no idea that youth model shotguns even existed.

abcnews.com
Boy, 11, Allegedly Used 'Youth Gun' in Killing
Shotgun Designed for Kids Reportedly Used in Shooting Death of 26-Year-Old
By SCOTT MICHELS

Feb. 24, 2009—

An 11-year-old Pennsylvania boy accused of killing his father's pregnant girlfriend last week reportedly used his own youth model shotgun, a smaller-sized gun designed specifically for children.

Jordan Brown has been charged as an adult with two counts of criminal homicide in the deaths of 26-year-old Kenzie Marie Houk and her unborn child. Houk was eight months pregnant with Brown's father's child, and also had two daughters, 7 and 4, who lived with her and the Browns.

Police say Brown went downstairs from his bedroom with the gun hidden in a blanket, shot Houk in the head while she lay in bed, then took the bus to school. Brown is being held in the Lawrence County jail, though he is segregated from the adult prisoners. He has not entered a formal plea.

"It's tragic because a woman lost her life. The baby lost her life and you have an 11-year-old that's well on track to spending the rest of his life in jail," said Lawrence County District Attorney John Bongivengo.

Brown got the youth-sized shotgun as a Christmas present, and used it to win a turkey shoot on Valentine's Day, police said.

The 20-gauge shotgun was a gift from the boy's father, Chris Brown, according to Bongivengo. Brown was training his son to be a hunter, the New York Daily News reported. Houk had also encouraged Brown to buy the boy his own gun, according to the Daily News.

Youth model guns are generally shorter and lighter than regular rifles or shotguns and have lighter recoil, making them easier for children to use. Dozens of gun manufacturers offer both rifles and shotguns aimed at the youth market.

Gun Control Activist 'Outraged' by Youth Model Guns

Though not uncommon, the guns have been the target of criticism from some gun control activists, who say that children may not understand the danger of such weapons.

"To specifically market a gun designed for a kid is outrageous," said Paul Helmke, president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, a gun control group. "To have a gun specially designed for junior, we're talking about a lethal weapon here, you're not talking about a toy anymore."

Pennsylvania State Trooper Ronald Kesten said police don't encounter the smaller guns very frequently and said they have not been a problem.

Bongivengo also said it was not uncommon for boys Brown's age to have their own shotgun, though he said the gun should have been locked up and inaccessible.

The gun was kept in a place to which the boy had full access, according to authorities.

Gun Safety Instructor: Nothing Wrong With Youth Model Guns

Graham Luck, who teaches a youth firearms safety course in Minnesota, said youth guns can be safer than regular guns, which can be too heavy for some smaller children. "The heavy guns can get away from them," he said.

"There's nothing wrong with firearms that fit young people," he added. "Kids need to be familiar with any kind of firearms. If he finds a gun in the house, it doesn't matter what kind it is."

Luck said children under 14 should not have access to the guns without parental permission and supervision.

The boy's attorney, Dennis Elisco, said he plans to ask the court to transfer the case to juvenile court and to transfer Brown to a juvenile facility, according to the AP.

"Jordan's holding up, he's a tough little kid, he's holding up well," Elisco told "Good Morning America."

Bongivengo said he was unable to file the homicide charges against the boy in juvenile court and had not decided whether he would oppose a motion to transfer the case to juvenile court.

"On the nature of the crime itself, I would say I would be opposed. But I'm not going to take a hard line stance," he said. "I want to gather all the information possible and make the best possible decision. I'm not out to persecute him."

Houk's family and friends said Houk had had problems with the boy in the past. Prosecutors say Jordan had been the center of attention in his father's life until Houk moved in.

Family members told "Good Morning America" that Jordan had threatened to "pop" Houk and her daughters in the past.

"There was an issue with jealousy. He told my son stuff," Houk's brother-in-law, Jason Kraner, told the Associated Press. "He actually told my son that he wanted to do that to her."

Houk's 7-year-old daughter is now a key witness in the case. Prosecutors say the girl says Jordan come downstairs early Friday morning holding two guns.

When she asked what he was doing, Jordan allegedly ran back upstairs, then returned with a shotgun under a blanket, according to prosecutors. State police found Houk's body in bed after her 4-year-old daughter told tree cutters on the property that she thought her mother was dead.

"The operating theory is that he covered the gun with the blanket to hide it when he came downstairs" from his bedroom to shoot Houk, who was in a first-floor bedroom, Bongivengo said. "It wasn't used to muffle (the shot) or anything, the blanket wasn't thick enough for that."

Deborah Houk, Kenzie's mother, said, "I lost my grandson and my daughter and my two little babies lost their mother. Nothing could ever be so horrible."
 
I don't have a problem with youth model hunting rifles or shotguns per se, but I think 11 years old is a little young, and under no circumstance should the child have free access to the guns in the house.

Poor parenting.:sad:
 
What kind of parent would give a shotgun to an 11 year old? Even one that showed responsibility when it came to guns?

The father should be brought up on charges, too. What a sad, sad situation. :no:
 
What kind of parent would give a shotgun to an 11 year old?
Lots of parents do...in many areas of the country, particularly rural areas, it's common for kids to start learning to hunt around 8 or 9, and to have their first hunting gun by 11 if not before. Where I grew up that was quite typical. And a 20-gauge shotgun is a pretty common first gun; they're mostly for shooting game birds. Still, like BVS said, no gun should ever be stored where a child has free access to it; that's putting far too much faith in their judgment, no matter how great they do on supervised hunting excursions or whatever.

But assuming the charges against Jordan Brown hold up, I do wonder if he might be the kind of severely disturbed child who'd have found a means to kill his future stepmother one way or the other. Nothing in the version of events proposed by the police suggests that this was some tragically impulsive act by a momentarily agitated child who didn't understand that guns kill.

I was startled, though, to read that Pennsylvania law actually requires him to be charged as an adult; here he'd have to be 16 for that.
 
My dad took an 11 year old boy hunting, with guns. The kid actually shot a buck too! But the difference is that this was hunting, he had training, he had adults present, and the 11 year old was not responsible for the gun (ie, it's not sitting in his bedroom at home, the adults make sure it is unloaded and locked up!).

There's a difference between an 11 year old using a gun and leaving an 11 year with with the responsibility of a gun.
 
i say this is more the parents fault..not the kid..yes i have my own gun & so does my sister but my dad keeps them locked up...i agree poor parenting
 
I'm not defending the parents for not keeping the gun locked up, but I think even if they did, that kid probably still would have done what he did. Just by finding another way. :slant:
 
But am I the only person here who is SHOCKED by the idea of GUNS designed especially for KIDS?

There's nothing wrong with kids having/using guns, for things like hunting, as long as they know gun safety and the parents are in control. The idea behind these guns is that they will be easier for kids to use, less recoil, not as big, etc, therefore making them more safe for kids to use.
 
Agreed.


But am I the only person here who is SHOCKED by the idea of GUNS designed especially for KIDS? :|


There is generally a huge difference between Europe and the US when it comes to guns. In the US it's much more commonplace to go hunting or sport shooting even as teenagers, or kids, than it is here.

It's right that it was irresponsible to leave the kid with access to his gun, and I don't know about the law regarding how to store guns, but from the article it's clear that the kid had some issues nevertheless. He went downstairs with the guns, when he was seen by the seven year old he went upstairs again only to hide the gun, and he was planning to kill is stepmother for a while. Additionally, he went to school right afterwards as if nothing happened. Whatever the reasons, but he looks like a case for a mental facility.

I will never understand how any kid can be put under adult law. No matter what crime.
 
There's nothing wrong with kids having/using guns, for things like hunting, as long as they know gun safety and the parents are in control. The idea behind these guns is that they will be easier for kids to use, less recoil, not as big, etc, therefore making them more safe for kids to use.

:down:


And easier for child soldiers to carry when they are kidnapped by rebels and forced to kill their parents in a civil war.
Yeah, definately more safe for kids to use!

_______________________________



The Pac Mule, I salute you from the real world!:wave:
 
Agreed.


But am I the only person here who is SHOCKED by the idea of GUNS designed especially for KIDS? :|

No, you're not the only one!


There is generally a huge difference between Europe and the US when it comes to guns. In the US it's much more commonplace to go hunting or sport shooting even as teenagers, or kids, than it is here.

Bullet the blue sky....



I have more things to say, actually, but I'm not in the mood to be banned tonight.:silent:
 
I bought my son a 20 guage last year -- he was 12.

We go skeet and trap shooting all of the time. Great fun, and a decent skill to have too. He also plays violent video games. He also is the most loving, empathetic kid, I've ever known.

Keeping your ammo locked up is another easy safety tip.
 
The possession of a gun or playing violent video games doesn't make you a killer. But as a parent you need to keep an eye on your kids because under some circumstances certain media or certain hobbies can have a negative influence on children, or add to other problems where the parent has to intervene.
But nevertheless, safety rules are there for a reason. And one is to lock guns and ammo away.

I started playing age inappropriate games and watching age inappropriate movies at around eight or nine. Didn't screw me much. But on the other hand, that's just anecdotal evidence, and we know that's not worth much.
 
I agree, Vincent. I grew up with guns in the house. I would not even know how to load or cock one, let alone be able to fire it accurately. And honestly I don't even know where in the house they were kept. I've never fired a gun and have no desire to. The closest I come to guns is in training and trialing my German Shepherds. It is a breed fault for the dog to be gun shy, so blanks are fired while they perform and show (and I jumped the first few times).

My brother got into hunting at an early age, but he was required to take safety classes. IMO, learning on adult guns is MORE dangerous. He also had a youth bow designed for a left hander, a bow that a 12 year old could actually draw (as kids we would sneak my grandpa's bow out and try to draw it, OMG yeah right!). The more you learn and use them properly, the more safe you are. Sort of like driving.

Our family has never had any sort of safety issue or accident with any type of gun, bow, or ammunition. Everyone is trained, all the weapons are properly cleaned and stored. My uncles are retired cops, so not only do they know their hunting weapons, but have been routinely certified in the use and safety of other weapons as well. Ironically, the closest anyone has come to a fatal incident was me, being in a vehicle that was shot at on the highway, and the bullet missed my face by 4 inches.

I guess I don't get how this is in any way connected to children being abducted and brain washed into participating in civil war and genocide....

I agree with the others, it sounds like this kid premeditated this and the gun was just incidental.
 
It might be safe to have a kid shoot a gun under adult supervision when a parent and a child goes hunting.

It is never safe to just hand them a loaded weapon and let them run amok with it. It's bad enough that adults carry guns, now we have to give them to children, too? A child is much less rational than an adult, and adult gun carriers are bad enough.
 
^ Who are you referring to? The boy in the article? No one 'handed him a gun and let him run amok with it'; it's just that the parents were tragically foolish in storing his gun, and apparently ammo as well, where he had access to it (sadly, many states, PA included, don't hold gun owners legally accountable for this). Certainly no one in the thread was arguing that kids should be able to run around unsupervised with guns.
 
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^ Who are you referring to? The boy in the article? No one 'handed him a gun and let him run amok with it'; it's just that the parents were tragically foolish in storing his gun, and apparently ammo as well, where he had access to it (sadly, many states, PA included, don't hold gun owners legally accountable for this). Certainly no one in the thread was arguing that kids should be able to run around unsupervised with guns.

Well, that's pretty much letting him run amok. They might have not handed it to him per se, but they stored it improperly, and gave him access to it.

And making 'kid sized weapons' is like handing it to them on a silver platter. Plenty of kids grew up shooting their parent's shotgun years ago, they didn't have to have 'kid sized' weapons. It's sick that there's a market for this stuff.
 
And easier for child soldiers to carry when they are kidnapped by rebels and forced to kill their parents in a civil war.
Yeah, definately more safe for kids to use!

I'm pretty sure rebels who do those thing don't really care what size the gun is or who its specified for. They're going to give them a gun and make them commit terrible crimes with them. :sad:
 
And making 'kid sized weapons' is like handing it to them on a silver platter. Plenty of kids grew up shooting their parent's shotgun years ago, they didn't have to have 'kid sized' weapons.
I just don't think that's the intent of these 'youth model' designs...I'm not really sure how long they've been around, but at least when I was a kid in the '70s and '80s, no kids I knew who hunted with their parents had anything like that; their first guns were pretty much always hand-me-down shotguns that some relative didn't need anymore. And lots of times that worked out fine. But if you're talking a kid who's on the slight side for their age, and/or if the hand-me-down is a fairly heavy gun, then actually that can be both unsafe and unpleasant for the child...the stronger recoil makes it harder for them to maintain control of the gun, plus they're going to be exhausted and sore long before the afternoon's over from slogging through the woods carrying a too-heavy firearm, then on top of that their shoulder gets all banged up from having the butt of the gun repeatedly driven into it by the stronger recoil. I don't understand what the issue is with offering a shorter and lighter model to get around those problems. One of our neighbors has a daughter in high school who still uses a youth model shotgun because she's a petite girl and it's just much easier for her to use.
 
is united states the only nation that glorifies violence to kids?:shrug:

Yes, because a single person in this thread has "glorified" what this child did.... :scratch:

So far you're the only person that has brought up violence, in a totally unrelated context.
 
It might be safe to have a kid shoot a gun under adult supervision when a parent and a child goes hunting.

It is never safe to just hand them a loaded weapon and let them run amok with it. It's bad enough that adults carry guns, now we have to give them to children, too? A child is much less rational than an adult, and adult gun carriers are bad enough.

To me that's a no-brainer. Some 11 year old boys still need their moms to tell them what to wear and when to shower.

I don't see anyone here who would disagree with your statement. NO child should EVER be responsible for maintaining and securing a gun.
 
I don't understand what the issue is with offering a shorter and lighter model to get around those problems. One of our neighbors has a daughter in high school who still uses a youth model shotgun because she's a petite girl and it's just much easier for her to use.

I have small hands and short fingers and found it hard to manage a full sized shotgun, so a youth model worked better for me. I don't have one anymore, but in a rural area having a shotgun is often not a bad idea.
 
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