You Just Can't Beat A Religious Education

[VintagePunk]

The virus has been around as long as all the other STDs (AIDS excepted). But the vaccine was just recently approved.

randhail can correct me if I'm wrong, but it was a lot more recently that the link between HPV and cervical cancer was discovered, wasn't it?

 

[INDY500]

so people only abstain from sex because they're afraid of getting cancer?

i just don't understand. what if there were a vaccination that prevented HIV? would you give that to your children, or would you simply look them in the eye after they announced their status and said, "well, i told you so, and you know what? so did Jesus."

I know that you know HIV can be spread by methods other than sexual intercourse.

 

[randhail]

Haven't studies shown time and time again that there's no link between autism and childhood vaccinations?

That's correct, but people don't want to believe that. Some people have it set in their head that the two are linked and refuse to believe the evidence.

Specifically, it was an additive called Thimerosal that was supposed to blame, but it's been taken out of all but the flu vaccine, and guess what the rates of autism have not decreased at all.

 

[VintagePunk]

but the whole anal cancer thing ... you know that's only going to apply to the gays. so, really, who cares? not Jesus.

I have a feeling that Jesus would care far more than many humans do, (presupposing he's the son of God, and all, and his caring even matters ).

 

[VintagePunk]

That's correct, but people don't want to believe that. Some people have it set in their head that the two are linked and refuse to believe the evidence.

Specifically, it was an additive called Thimerosal that was supposed to blame, but it's been taken out of all but the flu vaccine, and guess what the rates of autism have not decreased at all.

Off topic, but I find some of the Autism cluster studies fascinating.

 

[Irvine511]

I know that you know HIV can be spread by methods other than sexual intercourse.

it's all sinnin'.

 

[randhail]

randhail can correct me if I'm wrong, but it was a lot more recent that the link between HPV and cervical cancer was discovered, wasn't it?

Correct.

The story of our understanding of cervical cancer and its primary cause, HPV, is intriguing. It involves prostitutes, nuns, and a group of second wives, as well as generations of dedicated researchers. Almost a hundred years ago, epidemiologists began to note a curious phenomenon: cervical cancer was common in prostitutes, but extremely rare in nuns – with the exception of nuns who had been sexually active before entering the convent. They also observed that the rate of cervical cancer was alarmingly high among women who were married to men whose first wives had died of cervical cancer. From these clues, scientists deduced that cervical cancer was caused by a sexually transmitted agent. It was not until the late 1970s, however, that German researchers identified HPV, long known to cause both cutaneous and genital warts, as the agent in question.

In the 1980s, building on the work of the German researchers, NCI intramural researchers were instrumental in identifying the mechanism by which HPV causes cervical cancer when they found that the viral proteins E6 and E7 induce abnormal cell proliferation and tumor development. Meanwhile, NCI-funded epidemiologic studies in different populations around the world were confirming a causal link between cervical cancer and HPV infection.

 

[INDY500]

it's all sinnin'.

Requiring blood for surgery? Using an infected needle or being stuck accidentally?

 

[Irvine511]

Requiring blood for surgery? Using an infected needle or being stuck accidentally?

all unfortunate accidents, and thoroughly preventable ones. but the point holds, you see? sin affects everyone.

 

[nathan1977]

still, there are some immunizations that are pretty much required by law, right? like polio, smallpox, etc.?

Yes. Immunizations that prevent contagious, infectious diseases.

ultimately, yes, it is a parent's choice

This is the issue I'm most concerned about. We're talking about grade-school children who are way below the age of consent being immunized by the government for a disease that is passed sexually. I'm all for people who are of-age making informed decisions about their own sexual health. But when people start revolting against a school board that believes such decisions belong between grade-school-age children, parents, and their GPs, without the school's involvement, I have a problem.

Otherwise we might as well hand out clean needles to schoolchildren too, because shoot, you never know.

 

[VintagePunk]

Yes. Immunizations that prevent contagious, infectious diseases.



This is the issue I'm most concerned about. We're talking about grade-school children who are way below the age of consent being immunized by the government for a disease that is passed sexually. I'm all for people who are of-age making informed decisions about their own sexual health. But when people start revolting against a school board that believes such decisions belong between grade-school-age children, parents, and their GPs, without the school's involvement, I have a problem.

Otherwise we might as well hand out clean needles to schoolchildren too, because shoot, you never know.

Perhaps you're not aware of this, but parents are required to sign a consent form when children are immunized against anything at school. The government doesn't walk in all Big Brother-like and just start shooting children up without parental consent.

Does that make you feel better about it?

 

[yolland]

But using fear to justify giving this immunization is okay?

Receiving a vaccination isn't comparable to making and maintaining a personal commitment to a set of values that shape your behavior over the course of a lifetime. Getting vaccinated isn't moral behavior, and what other reason is there to get any vaccine beside fear? Would you admire parents who rejected all vaccinations for their children on the grounds that God will provide if it pleases Him to keep them alive and unscathed?

While I don't agree with refusing vaccinations on religious grounds, I do agree that any legal loopholes which apply to other vaccination requirements should be extended to the HPV vaccine as well.

 

[Irvine511]

This is the issue I'm most concerned about.

except that the thrust of your posts belie this claim, as seen below.

Otherwise we might as well hand out clean needles to schoolchildren too, because shoot, you never know.

it is quite likely that your child will have sex with more than one person, and it is quite likely that those people will have had sex with more than one person and it is quite likely that the person said child marries will also have sex with more than one person. it amazes me all the feel good, pie-in-the-sky platitudes we often get from conservatives involving the innocence of their children and their "high expectations" which serve to do nothing but inculcate a sense of shame should the child engage in what is a very, very human activity he or she is hardwired to want to do. it's lovely to want said activity to occur only within marriage. but is someone a failure if that doesn't happen? are we really going to prize virginity like this? what if our children, you know, disagree with us and the values we try to impart? aren't we better off vaccinating and then teaching our values whatever they may be and then understanding that, guess what, our kids are going to do whatever they want to do. you cannot control their behavior. you cannot.

safety first. that was the #1 thing i was taught when working with children. nothing matters if they are not safe. whether in the pool, in the classroom, or at recess. they had to be safe.

safety first. do not jeopardize your child's health for ideology.

(in a general sense, not addressed to anyone in particular)

 

[nathan1977]

except that the thrust of your posts belie this claim, as seen below.

Maybe you should read my posts again. My whole point is not whether this vaccine shouldn't be administered. (I'm rather neutral on the subject.) What I am saying is that a religious school that holds to a higher standard for sexual behavior ought to be the ones to decide whether their values are going to be undercut by a governmental policy. And if they decide that it is, they have every right to say, "we're not going to administer it here." They aren't mandating that kids not get the vaccine. They are happy to direct parents to places where the vaccine can be administered. They are saying that they will not administer the vaccine on school grounds, and when the subject matter has nothing to do with public safety (which would affect a sitation like polio), they should have the right to do so.

The issue is religious freedom vs. government intervention. Cleario?

 

[BVS]

The issue is religious freedom vs. government intervention. Cleario?

How is it religious freedom?

 

[Irvine511]

The issue is religious freedom vs. government intervention. Cleario?

you realize, of course, it's just a small step from here to FGM.

religious freedom of course.

in short, if a religious belief harms children, the government absolutely has the right and responsibility to step all over it.

 

[financeguy]

you realize, of course, it's just a small step from here to FGM.

religious freedom of course.

in short, if a religious belief harms children, the government absolutely has the right and responsibility to step all over it.

Would you agree with the following statement:

"if a secular belief harms children, the government absolutely has the right and responsibility to step all over it"

 

[Irvine511]

Would you agree with the following statement:

"if a secular belief harms children, the government absolutely has the right and responsibility to step all over it"

i would argue that the definition of "secular" defies the categorization you've given it. it's not like "religious" and "secular" are opposite sides of the same coin. that's a false equivocation.

 

[nathan1977]

in short, if a religious belief harms children, the government absolutely has the right and responsibility to step all over it.

How are children harmed in this situation?

 

[nathan1977]

How is it religious freedom?

Does a religious school have the right to have certain religious (or, to quote the original article, "moral") values respected by the government?

 

[Irvine511]

How are children harmed in this situation?

the vaccine prevents cancer.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Does a religious school have the right to have certain religious (or, to quote the original article, "moral") values respected by the government?

In a private setting yes, if it was funded exclusively through parents or the church then they shouldn't be obligated to allow vaccinations on school premises. But that isn't the case, the school is receiving public money, that should have strings attached and some of the obligations undercut the independence of the school.

 

[nathan1977]

the vaccine prevents cancer.

And the school has distributed information about where to get vaccinated. So my question still stands....who is harmed? Where? How?

 

[dazzlingamy]

Maybe you should read my posts again. My whole point is not whether this vaccine shouldn't be administered. (I'm rather neutral on the subject.) What I am saying is that a religious school that holds to a higher standard for sexual behavior ought to be the ones to decide whether their values are going to be undercut by a governmental policy. And if they decide that it is, they have every right to say, "we're not going to administer it here." They aren't mandating that kids not get the vaccine. They are happy to direct parents to places where the vaccine can be administered. They are saying that they will not administer the vaccine on school grounds, and when the subject matter has nothing to do with public safety (which would affect a sitation like polio), they should have the right to do so.

The issue is religious freedom vs. government intervention. Cleario?

HIGHeR STANDARD FOR SEXUAL BEHAVIOR? Do you honestly believe this? I didn't think a religious school has anything to do with sex, and rather about teaching their religion alongside mainstream education. I don't think a christian is any more moralistic when it comes to sex then anyone else. Think of how many scandals out there about people prescribing to the christian ideal who are committing affairs, sex with prostitutes, rape and peadophilia.

Do you believe that a public school that has sex ed classes, and perhaps free condoms up at the nurses station is PROMOTING promiscuity.

Secondly, any deadly disease, like cervical cancer can be is serious. It may not be on the scale of polio, but this is why we have the needle, so it won't ever get there.

Another thing is, you say the schools are pointing towards the GP where is can be done, but the damage is done. By saying 'we don't condone the needle because it interfers with our religious ideals (BTW WHERE??)' its setting the scene for the families to go, oh well we definately won't, because St Christophers has said NO, and for the kids that do, there is a stigma around it, like going to get the pill, and if anything we do, surely we need to be taking stigmas AWAY so in future we don't have this mass behind the curtains sexual bullshit that has fucked so many religious people up because of the shame and weirdness associated with S E X, the most natural thing to do.

 

[Irvine511]

And the school has distributed information about where to get vaccinated. So my question still stands....who is harmed? Where? How?

why is this vaccine different from others?

and i'll point to the above post on government funding.

 

[VintagePunk]

why is this vaccine different from others?

and i'll point to the above post on government funding.

I've mentioned repeatedly that government completely funds Catholic schools here. I've also pointed out that parents have to sign consent forms approving any vaccinations that take place in a school setting, taking away the whole consent issue. He hasn't responded to either of those. I can only conclude that the basis of his disapproval rests on the morality issue.

 

[dazzlingamy]

Do you think so?

Also i don't think he has a vagina, so what is cervical cancer to him? Just a way of telling girls, heres your consequences for having sex!

I just don't get why if we have something to treat and prevent something, there is issues surrounding it? Surely we should be championing the scietists who discovered it, not lynching anyone who wants to provide it free to people.

 

[nathan1977]

I've mentioned repeatedly that government completely funds Catholic schools here. I've also pointed out that parents have to sign consent forms approving any vaccinations that take place in a school setting, taking away the whole consent issue. He hasn't responded to either of those. I can only conclude that the basis of his disapproval rests on the morality issue.

Read my posts, VP. I'm not talking about my objections. I'm talking about the rights of the school to administer certain vaccines or not.

 

[nathan1977]

Also i don't think he has a vagina, so what is cervical cancer to him? Just a way of telling girls, heres your consequences for having sex!

The issue is not cervical cancer. The issue is government mandates that have no place in a religious school that is willing to give the information to its students but not allow vaccinations on school property. Cleario?

I just don't get why if we have something to treat and prevent something, there is issues surrounding it? Surely we should be championing the scietists who discovered it, not lynching anyone who wants to provide it free to people.

Who on earth is being lynched? The school is willing to distribute information to anyone who wants it.

Gosh, I don't know why we don't just hand out clean needles to kids too...

 

[nathan1977]

HIGHeR STANDARD FOR SEXUAL BEHAVIOR? Do you honestly believe this? I didn't think a religious school has anything to do with sex, and rather about teaching their religion alongside mainstream education. I don't think a christian is any more moralistic when it comes to sex then anyone else.

4 years of Catholic school.
Grew up a preacher's kid.
Went into campus ministry for a while.
I know what I'm talking about.
Do you?