You Just Can't Beat A Religious Education

[VintagePunk]

Yes, rape. Happens quite a lot on college campuses. And unfaithful spouses.

We are raising our daughter, and our sons, with traditional Jewish teachings about sex belonging in marriage (which doesn't in any way exclude comprehensive sex education at the same time), and I make no apologies for that. I also love my daughter far more than I love any ideal, and if she were to acquire cervical cancer via HPV through whatever means, I wouldn't be reassured in the slightest by the idea that Oh well, I did my part by advocating reserving sex for marriage. Furthermore I know many other parents aren't teaching their children that sex is for marriage, or simply aren't discussing sex with them at all, and I want their daughters' chances of avoiding the disease maximized as well.

I expect to discuss all the above frankly with my daughter when she is of age to receive this vaccine. I don't care whether she receives it at school or in a doctor's office. Perhaps someday it will be a required vaccine by many school systems, as several others currently are.

Nothing I've read about it supports the idea that its (reported, not confirmed) serious complications rate is worse than other commonplace vaccines; on the contrary, according to the CDC, it's well below the average rate.

It sounds like you're doing an excellent job of balancing your religious beliefs and ideals with the reality of young people, and the issues that they face regarding sexuality. It's the most normal thing in the world for parents to instill their values onto their children, and to hope that they take hold when they get out into the world and achieve some degree of independence. What astounds me are people who do so with blinders on, automatically assuming that their children will fall into line. Really though, that's not even the main issue here, because of the many ways of contracting the disease that a woman has very little control over, such as the ones you've listed.

I agree, administering the vaccine at schools makes the most sense, and would prevent the greatest number of girls from falling through the cracks.

 

[INDY500]

It's not a required immunization is it? Because for public health reasons diphtheria, polio, rubella and tetanus are. HPV, however, is transmitted by only one specific, intimate method.
So if not required, shouldn't a school in a free country be able to opt out for any reason it chooses; be it moral, economic or something else?

 

[bonoman]

It's not a required immunization is it? Because for public health reasons diphtheria, polio, rubella and tetanus are. HPV, however, is transmitted by only one specific, intimate method.
So if not required, shouldn't a school in a free country be able to opt out for any reason it chooses; be it moral, economic or something else?

If the school is publically funded and the most economic way to provide the shot is at school, should the government not have the right to save money and doctors time and provide the choice of receiving the immunization at school?

 

[nathan1977]

If the school is publically funded and the most economic way to provide the shot is at school, should the government not have the right to save money and doctors time and provide the choice of receiving the immunization at school?

This is exactly the point. When does the government have the right to intrude on the free practice of religion? And who decides? INDY has rightly pointed out that public safety is a non-issue here, so something else seems to be afoot.

 

[snowbunny00774]

If the school is publically funded and the most economic way to provide the shot is at school, should the government not have the right to save money and doctors time and provide the choice of receiving the immunization at school?

The government should probably distribute condoms and clean needles through the school too

 

[nathan1977]

The government should probably distribute condoms through the school too

Slippery slope...

 

[nathan1977]

Yolland, you know how it is with evangelicals. If there's the slightest chance that a female child could grow up to have a sexual experience outside of marriage, nevermind with :gasp: more than one partner, then their lives aren't worth saving.

How sad that some people actually believe this.

How sad that some people seem perfectly content to casually tar a whole bunch of people with the same brush, but pitch a hissy fit when the same is done to them.

 

[nathan1977]

Fear is a poor teaching tool for sexual morality.

But using fear to justify giving this immunization is okay?

The politics of fear are played both ways.

 

[bonoman]

I see this as a health issue, and an economic issue. Some of you are making this into a moral issue and a God issue. I'll state this again, we have two school systems Seperate and Catholic. They are both publically funded. This should have nothing to do with God and morals, its an administrative issue in my opinion.

 

[nathan1977]

I see this as a health issue, and an economic issue. Some of you are making this into a moral issue and a God issue. I'll state this again, we have two school systems Seperate and Catholic. They are both publically funded. This should have nothing to do with God and morals, its an administrative issue in my opinion.

Hardly. There are those who have chosen a Catholic education, which carries an underlying perspective on a variety of issues and subjects, including sexuality. Should that perspective be honored or not? Or should the government focus on the secular school system, which I'm going to wager has many many more students, and allow the Catholics to decide on this issue?

 

[bonoman]

Ah. See thats where your knowledge or lack of comes into play. The Catholic school system in Alberta is not exclusive to Catholics. For example, any Christian, Jew, Muslim or Atheist is free to attend a Catholic school. Generally what happens in the cities is that a Public school is built and across the street a Catholic school is built. Catholic schools are nearly as common place as a Public school. As I've said before, don't compare Canada to the US, they are very different.

I went to Catholic school my whole life. I took three religion classes in 12 years. In each of those classes we were taught about other religions. We also learnt about being a good Catholic. In my opinion, a good Catholic believes that the health of women trump unfounded fear of sexual promiscuity.

 

[anitram]

Yolland you sound like you are doing a wonderful job with your kids.

My CATHOLIC parents took a similar approach with my brother and myself. You know who was with me when I got my prescription for the birth control pill? My mother. Because she is a grown woman with a brain and sense of reality and not a bloody ostrich who wants to put her head in the sand.

 

[VintagePunk]

But using fear to justify giving this immunization is okay?

The politics of fear are played both ways.

So, it's fear that HPV is spread through sexual contact and that females (but not men! They're safe!) are vulnerable to it turning into a deadly disease and that the vaccine can prevent a very large percentage of this from happening, saving female lives? I'd call that fact. Or were you getting at something else?

Hardly. There are those who have chosen a Catholic education, which carries an underlying perspective on a variety of issues and subjects, including sexuality. Should that perspective be honored or not?

Not when they're fully publicly funded and there's an overriding health issue that takes precedence. There are all sorts of private religious schools around. If you object to public health saving lives of females via public Catholic schools, then maybe you should enroll your children into one of those, and pay for the privilege.

pitch a hissy fit when the same is done to them.

Not really sure what you're talking about here, but, whatever.

Or should the government focus on the secular school system, which I'm going to wager has many many more students, and allow the Catholics to decide on this issue?

Not really. In my city, there are two Catholic high schools, and three secular, and my area isn't overwhelmingly Catholic compared to others. Some areas of the country would have more Catholics.

What's wrong with focusing on both? Then more lives are protected.

 

[bonoman]

Yolland you sound like you are doing a wonderful job with your kids.

My CATHOLIC parents took a similar approach with my brother and myself. You know who was with me when I got my prescription for the birth control pill? My mother. Because she is a grown woman with a brain and sense of reality and not a bloody ostrich who wants to put her head in the sand.

ANITRAM! You know a little about Alberta, please help explain our school system! Its frustrating and I gotta go home...

 

[elevated_u2_fan]

what I don't understand is is HPV new or something? I don't recall hearing about it at all when I was in high school.... All of a sudden it's everywhere, what happened?

Did it exist before but was not diagnosed or called something else?

 

[nathan1977]

Ah. See thats where your knowledge or lack of comes into play. The Catholic school system in Alberta is not exclusive to Catholics. For example, any Christian, Jew, Muslim or Atheist is free to attend a Catholic school.

Answer this. Is anyone assigned to a Catholic school? Or do they have the freedom to choose where they go?

Because if they choose a school with a particular set of beliefs, then them's the breaks.

 

[nathan1977]

she is a grown woman with a brain and sense of reality and not a bloody ostrich who wants to put her head in the sand.

Again, charming.

 

[anitram]

Again, charming.

You know what, I find it borderline negligent for these parents to stick their heads in the sand.

Did my mother want me having sex as a teenager? No. But what she wanted even less was to become a grandmother at the age of 40, or to have a daughter who was HIV+ or with syphilis.

And anybody who implies that they are better Christians because they prevent their daughters from having access to comprehensive sex ed should be derided - I make no apologies for it. We do not need children having children, we do not need AIDS spreading like forest fire. This is a level of negligence from religious authorities like the Church that I have no time for.

 

[Irvine511]

This is exactly the point. When does the government have the right to intrude on the free practice of religion? And who decides? INDY has rightly pointed out that public safety is a non-issue here, so something else seems to be afoot.

how are vaccinations at all religious issues?

 

[Irvine511]

Answer this. Is anyone assigned to a Catholic school? Or do they have the freedom to choose where they go?

Because if they choose a school with a particular set of beliefs, then them's the breaks.

what are the beliefs here? i don't understand at all how vaccinations for cervical cancer violate any religious belief.

i am very confused.

 

[randhail]

So, it's fear that HPV is spread through sexual contact and that females (but not men! They're safe!) are vulnerable to it turning into a deadly disease and that the vaccine can prevent a very large percentage of this from happening, saving female lives? I'd call that fact. Or were you getting at something else?

Men are actually at risk of developing penile and anal cancer as a result of HPV so it's not just a female issue.

 

[anitram]

what are the beliefs here? i don't understand at all how vaccinations for cervical cancer violate any religious belief.

i am very confused.

The theory is that if you tell the girls that this vaccine will protect them from cervical cancer, they'll all become little hos and go out and have sex till they collapse.

I certainly would have done that myself!!

 

[VintagePunk]

Men are actually at risk of developing penile and anal cancer as a result of HPV so it's not just a female issue.

Thanks for the clarification, I wasn't aware of that. Do you have any information as to how great the risk is? Does it compare to female numbers?

Even more reason to vaccinate.

 

[Irvine511]

The theory is that if you tell the girls that this vaccine will protect them from cervical cancer, they'll all become little hos and go out and have sex till they collapse.

I certainly would have done that myself!!

so people only abstain from sex because they're afraid of getting cancer?

i just don't understand. what if there were a vaccination that prevented HIV? would you give that to your children, or would you simply look them in the eye after they announced their status and said, "well, i told you so, and you know what? so did Jesus."

 

[randhail]

What about parents that refuse to give their kids their normal childhood vaccines (MMR, HBV, etc) for religious reasons, fear of autism, etc - should they be held to the same ridicule that people that refuse to get the HPV vaccine for their kids?

 

[Irvine511]

Thanks for the clarification, I wasn't aware of that. Do you have any information as to how great the risk is? Does it compare to female numbers?

Even more reason to vaccinate.

but the whole anal cancer thing ... you know that's only going to apply to the gays. so, really, who cares? not Jesus.

 

[INDY500]

what I don't understand is is HPV new or something? I don't recall hearing about it at all when I was in high school.... All of a sudden it's everywhere, what happened?

Did it exist before but was not diagnosed or called something else?

The virus has been around as long as all the other STDs (AIDS excepted). But the vaccine was just recently approved.

 

[Irvine511]

What about parents that refuse to give their kids their normal childhood vaccines (MMR, HBV, etc) for religious reasons, fear of autism, etc - should they be held to the same ridicule that people that refuse to get the HPV vaccine for their kids?

i'm no doctor, obviously, but i'm going to guess that it's not quite so easy a parallel to draw.

still, there are some immunizations that are pretty much required by law, right? like polio, smallpox, etc.?

i do think it's easier to mock someone who refuses a vaccine that might, you know, prevent cancer because they think it will turn their daughter into a harlot as opposed to some people who believe that vaccinations cause autism.

ultimately, yes, it is a parent's choice, but then again, we hear just so much about how all children deserve their own biological mother and father to raise them and love them, but what if their own biological mother and fatherdo things that are objectively negligent to the child's health? do we say to a child, "sorry, i guess it sucks to be you and living in a household that puts your health at risk, but they are your own biological mother and father."

of course, we have laws about infants and car seats.

 

[VintagePunk]

What about parents that refuse to give their kids their normal childhood vaccines (MMR, HBV, etc) for religious reasons, fear of autism, etc - should they be held to the same ridicule that people that refuse to get the HPV vaccine for their kids?

Yes. And it's only by virtue of the majority of the population that do the responsible thing and get their children vaccinated that these diseases aren't making a resurgence.

Haven't studies shown time and time again that there's no link between autism and childhood vaccinations?

 

[randhail]

Thanks for the clarification, I wasn't aware of that. Do you have any information as to how great the risk is? Does it compare to female numbers?

Even more reason to vaccinate.

Offhand I know that the rates of anal and penile cancers are relatively small compared to the rates of cervical cancer. Men carry the virus at a high rate, but there must be something about the viral mechanisms that make the cervix a better target than the penis and anus.