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Old 12-19-2010, 12:07 AM   #196
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So happy about this!
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Old 12-19-2010, 01:32 AM   #197
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when did McCain morph into Jessie Helms?

anyway, i was at a small party tonight with someone who works for Leiiberman, and while he was proud of the work he did, he insisted that much of the victory credit has to fall at the feet of Susan Collins of Maine. as i always find, as a lay person talking to people who do this for a living, the workings of the Senate and of DC in general are exhilaratingly complex, everyone has their priorities, and the WH was and is still focused on START.

the other thing that came up was that big credit is due to the SecDef and McMullen - while Obama may have gotten the on the side of reform, their tenacity could not have been cajoled by the president himself. the two men were absolutely convinced of the advantages of repeal, that it would make for a stronger and safer America. ultimately, change came from within the military itself.

and in a few months, let alone a few years, this will all seem so mundane, and we'll wonder what all the fuss was about, and the homophobes will wind up in the dustbin of history alongside the racists, the segregationists, and the misogynists.
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Old 12-19-2010, 01:50 AM   #198
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as someone that was there when this fight began
much credit is due to Bill Clinton, he got very bloody in 93 trying to change the policy then, he was half way successful.

before DADT there was a flat out prohibition of any gay person serving, they had to tell when asked. DADT from 93 through present, proved that gays are capable of serving and serving well.
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Old 12-19-2010, 01:52 AM   #199
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I'm very sorry about the repealing of this policy.

Instead of respecting the soldier's privacy about his/her sexual orientation, the soldiers will now be subject to open discrimination and persecution based on their lifestyle.

A person's sexual orientation is nobody's business but their own and I'm very sorry that now it will be EVERYBODY's business.
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Old 12-19-2010, 01:59 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by AchtungBono View Post
I'm very sorry about the repealing of this policy.

Instead of respecting the soldier's privacy about his/her sexual orientation, the soldiers will now be subject to open discrimination and persecution based on their lifestyle.

A person's sexual orientation is nobody's business but their own and I'm very sorry that now it will be EVERYBODY's business.


you really don't understand what has just happened -- and you do know that Israel doesn't discriminate against gay soldiers, yes?

being gay is not a lifestyle. it's a sexual ORIENTATION. do you talk about your husband? your children? what you did over the weekend? what movie you saw with your husband? if so, then you gave up your PRIVACY at work because you let us know that you are HETEROSEXUAL. your sexual orientation is my business because it is very public. if you are straight, do you think twice about talking about your family life? no one wants the details of your sex life, but you try, this coming monday, to go a week without mentioning ANY details of your life outside of work.

all that this does is allow gay people to not fear discharge because, god forbid, they write a letter to their partner or they let it slip that the went on a date over the weekend with someone of the same gender.

please, educate yourself. don't use that vile world LIFESTYLE. chances are, your LIFESTYLE and mine are just about the same. i get up, eat breakfast, and kiss someone goodbye, just like you do. and at night, i come home, make dinner, and talk about my day and fall asleep next to that same person, just like you do.
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Old 12-19-2010, 02:03 AM   #201
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ultimately, change came from within the military itself.
It usually seems that's how these things are done. The government finally listens when the people most directly affected by the issue actually raise their voices. Which should sound pretty "no duh", but I don't think enough people are truly aware of that.

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and in a few months, let alone a few years, this will all seem so mundane, and we'll wonder what all the fuss was about, and the homophobes will wind up in the dustbin of history alongside the racists, the segregationists, and the misogynists.
Yeppers.

And AchtungBono, er...I think you misunderstand. I fully agree that if people don't wish to disclose their orientation they shouldn't have to. But repealing this isn't going to force anyone to do that if they don't want to. All this means is that a man can talk about how much he misses his boyfriend or husband back home when he's commiserating with other soldiers who talk about missing their girlfriends or wives, and he won't be kicked out the next day for saying so.

Angela
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Old 12-19-2010, 02:58 AM   #202
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Irvine and Moonlight,

If I go to a job interview, it is not right for the employer to ask me if I'm Jewish, right? Because my religion has no bearing on my job performance.

So why should the military have the right to ask a soldier if he/she is gay or not? A person should be allowed to serve his country regardless of whether he/she is gay and orientation should not be an issue.

I'm sure gay soldiers have the same loyalty as straight soldiers, so why single them out? Why not leave things the way they were and have everyone serve equally?
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Old 12-19-2010, 03:18 AM   #203
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AchtungBono, could you state what you believe Don't Ask Don't Tell was?
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Old 12-19-2010, 03:54 AM   #204
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AchtungBono, could you state what you believe Don't Ask Don't Tell was?
As I understood it, DADT was the policy of giving gays the right to serve in the military without being asked about their sexual orientation. There would be no difference between them and their fellow soldiers. They had the right to serve and the right to keep their private lives private.

Am I correct?
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Old 12-19-2010, 04:07 AM   #205
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Am I correct?
i wouldn't say so, no.
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Old 12-19-2010, 04:18 AM   #206
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Am I correct?
What you seem to be misunderstanding about DADT is that it didn't just give gay soldiers the 'right' to hide their orientation, it required them to do so, or else be given the boot. To use your analogy--DADT would be like your employer saying, 'Look, I won't make you tell me your religion, but at the same time you'd better not slip up and say something about spending Chanukah with your family, because then you'll be fired.'

DADT was created as a compromise between those who didn't want gay people in the military at all and those who thought gay people should be able to serve (whether they're 'out' or not). What DADT basically said was: No one can directly demand that you reveal your sexual orientation, but, if you should slip up and 'out' yourself--say, by passingly referring to your partner, or by confiding that you're gay to someone who decides to rat on you to a superior--then you will be automatically discharged. So, what repeal of DADT means is that now gay people can serve in the military without constantly living in fear of accidentally 'outing' themselves. If you don't wish to disclose your orientation to anyone, ever (whether by actually saying 'I'm gay,' or by simply casually referring now and then to your partner), then that's fine--no one's forcing you to do so--but, at the same time, if you do wish to disclose it, that's fine too, and you're no longer under threat of automatic discharge for that.
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Old 12-19-2010, 04:45 AM   #207
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yolland basically nailed what I was about to say.

Is it possible you think DADT repeal means going back to the old pre-DADT status quo? As a political term in the US, "DADT repeal" means the US military no longer views sexual orientation as any sort of a relevant issue to service.

And anyone thinking about "open discrimination and persecution" of gays is about to discover how effective the court-martial system is.
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Old 12-19-2010, 04:54 AM   #208
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What you seem to be misunderstanding about DADT is that it didn't just give gay soldiers the 'right' to hide their orientation, it required them to do so, or else be given the boot. To use your analogy--DADT would be like your employer saying, 'Look, I won't make you tell me your religion, but at the same time you'd better not slip up and say something about spending Chanukah with your family, because then you'll be fired.'

DADT was created as a compromise between those who didn't want gay people in the military at all and those who thought gay people should be able to serve (whether they're 'out' or not). What DADT basically said was: No one can directly demand that you reveal your sexual orientation, but, if you should slip up and 'out' yourself--say, by passingly referring to your partner, or by confiding that you're gay to someone who decides to rat on you to a superior--then you will be automatically discharged. So, what repeal of DADT means is that now gay people can serve in the military without constantly living in fear of accidentally 'outing' themselves. If you don't wish to disclose your orientation to anyone, ever (whether by actually saying 'I'm gay,' or by simply casually referring now and then to your partner), then that's fine--no one's forcing you to do so--but, at the same time, if you do wish to disclose it, that's fine too, and you're no longer under threat of automatic discharge for that.

Thank you VERY much for that Yolland.....I guess I got it wrong.
I thought that DADT was a GOOD thing - I stand corrected.

I appreciate all of you clarifying this for me.
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Old 12-19-2010, 05:05 AM   #209
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yolland basically nailed what I was about to say.

Is it possible you think DADT repeal means going back to the old pre-DADT status quo? As a political term in the US, "DADT repeal" means the US military no longer views sexual orientation as any sort of a relevant issue to service.

And anyone thinking about "open discrimination and persecution" of gays is about to discover how effective the court-martial system is.
Actually YES....

I thought that "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" was another way of saying "Live and let live" - meaning, you can be whatever you want to be without having to let the whole world know about it.
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Old 12-19-2010, 05:06 AM   #210
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Actually YES....

I thought that "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" was another way of saying "Live and let live" - meaning, you can be whatever you want to be without having to let the whole world know about it.
Glad we got on the same page.
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