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Old 12-09-2010, 10:22 PM   #151
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Obama didn't fight for this like he could have.

The Republicans are repugnant on this issue but that is no surprise for a party who thinks that they 1950s were a utopia for everyone (and not just straight, white Christian men).

John McCain is a man without principles who has much to be ashamed of.
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Old 12-09-2010, 10:45 PM   #152
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I have to say, this one is baffling...
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Old 12-09-2010, 11:34 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by yolland View Post
(ETA --

Not sure if you're expressing bewilderment or frustration, but...the filibuster isn't DADT-specific, it's an extension of the no-on-everything-til-the-tax-cuts-clear-the-Senate thing. And 57 isn't enough because to override a filibuster, i.e. cloture, you need three-fifths, i.e. 60. Brown, Murkowski and Lugar had all publically indicated support for DADT repeal, so presumably they voted against cloture out of support for the filibuster. Collins and Reid had had a tentative agreement that debate on the defense bill including DADT might proceed anyway within certain parameters, but apparently Reid decided that wasn't going to work.)

the filibuster itself might need looking at. historically, it was used sparingly. now?

i've dealt with some anger today from friends who are mostly exasperated with Obama on this, and while i agree that, in retrospect, he should have just left this to the courts and done the unusual-but-not-unprecedented of ordering the DOJ to not defend the appeal in the 9th circuit, i do appreciate the thought that giving the repeal the legitimacy of legislative appeal would have prevented DADT from being reinstated at some point in the future.

it just seems to defy logic that you need to win by 20 votes to even win at all. i understand, yes, that's the rule, and needing 60 votes prevented things like, say, drilling in ANWAR.

it's becoming more and more apparent to me that the courts are the only recourse gay people have. whenever people vote, we feel our minority status so acutely that it's incredibly painful. the courts decided Brown vs. BOE, activist judges and all, and i'm afraid that's the only protection that gay people have. the GOP continues to seek our destruction, and the Democrats will only do enough to distinguish themselves as slightly to the left of that in order to retain votes (and gay money).

i hope that Obama will either drop the DADT appeal in the 9th circuit, or simply step in as Commander In Chief. i understand his concerns about not stepping on toes in the military, but for the love of God, this one is such a no brainer. you have overwhelming support for repeal both across the country and in the military itself. just do something that your base will love after this whole tax cut bru-ha-ha.

and John McCain can go fuck himself on his moving goalposts.
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Old 12-10-2010, 12:14 AM   #154
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the filibuster itself might need looking at. historically, it was used sparingly. now?
Rachel Maddow's been hammering the issue of the abuse of the filibuster on her show a lot over this past year. There are quite a few things our government does/did that may have seemed like good ideas at the time, or still are good ideas in theory, but which desperately need some sort of rules applied to them, some sort of limits. It's just too confusing otherwise.

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i've dealt with some anger today from friends who are mostly exasperated with Obama on this, and while i agree that, in retrospect, he should have just left this to the courts and done the unusual-but-not-unprecedented of ordering the DOJ to not defend the appeal in the 9th circuit, i do appreciate the thought that giving the repeal the legitimacy of legislative appeal would have prevented DADT from being reinstated at some point in the future.
Yes. This is the conundrum that Obama finds himself in.

I'm totally fine with the courts making decisions like this. But when you have situations, like the recent one here in Iowa, where voters are voting out judges for supporting things such as gay rights issues because they're "activist judges" (the horror!), that presents a problem for the courts. How would you suggest we go about getting around that problem?

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i understand his concerns about not stepping on toes in the military, but for the love of God, this one is such a no brainer. you have overwhelming support for repeal both across the country and in the military itself. just do something that your base will love after this whole tax cut bru-ha-ha.
Fully agreed on this. That's the thing, he wouldn't BE stepping on very many toes here. I usually refrain from using the "majority rule" argument on an issue because the simple fact that a lot of people support something isn't a strong enough argument to prove the legality/illegality, rightness/wrongness of any issue, but in this case, like you said, the majority of people are for repeal. I do not see exactly who Obama fears he will offend by ending this. Gay people, as well as those who support their rights, have been offended by the appalling discrimination they've been facing for years now. So if the anti-gay rights side gets offended for a bit, well, guess now they'll know how it feels, won't they?

About the only thing I can think of that could perhaps inspire the Democrats and Obama to move more quickly on this issue is some mass push from the public, by way of some big campaign or something. Make it as blatantly clear to them as possible that we are completely okay with this. They can repeal DADT and we'll support them 100%. Hell, if the Republicans see just how many Americans support this idea, some of them may even be inspired to support repeal. Mostly for job security and to look good, probably, sure, but the more support, the better, regardless.

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and John McCain can go fuck himself on his moving goalposts.
John McCain makes me sad. Somehow the theory of him getting senile doesn't seem like a good enough excuse for his recent behavior anymore. Now he's just coming off like a douche.

Angela
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Old 12-10-2010, 01:40 AM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anitram View Post
Obama didn't fight for this like he could have.

The Republicans are repugnant on this issue but that is no surprise for a party who thinks that they 1950s were a utopia for everyone (and not just straight, white Christian men).

John McCain is a man without principles who has much to be ashamed of.
this. all of this.

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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
the filibuster itself might need looking at. historically, it was used sparingly. now?
exactly. these days it's just used so anyone who disagrees with something can have a little temper tantrum like they're some petulant child not being allowed a candy bar at the grocery store.

while i can see both sides of this, to me it's one of the most undemocratic things about our "system" - that one person can stand there and cross their arms and prevent any progress being made. like i said i can see both sides where one can argue freedom of speech or what have you, but i disagree.

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Fully agreed on this. That's the thing, he wouldn't BE stepping on very many toes here. I usually refrain from using the "majority rule" argument on an issue because the simple fact that a lot of people support something isn't a strong enough argument to prove the legality/illegality, rightness/wrongness of any issue, but in this case, like you said, the majority of people are for repeal. I do not see exactly who Obama fears he will offend by ending this. Gay people, as well as those who support their rights, have been offended by the appalling discrimination they've been facing for years now. So if the anti-gay rights side gets offended for a bit, well, guess now they'll know how it feels, won't they?
exactly. it's as if obama is afraid of offending anyone or something, that's the only reason i can think of as to why he just keeps rolling over on everything and fighting for nothing. any of the big ticket (or even medium ticket) issues that've come to the table, he just makes some insane compromise that screws over both sides (although the republicans come out better, of course, because of him not fighting for anything) and accomplishes nothing.

obama needs to grow a spine, plain and simple. he needs to start flexing his muscles and acting like a president rather than letting a very vocal minority call the shots on everything.
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Old 12-11-2010, 12:32 AM   #156
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Here is somebody with principles, acting in the best interest of his nation:

Quote:
A senior aide to David Petraeus, commander of NATO forces in Afghanistan, is out with a strong statement in support of repealing Don't Ask, Don't Tell (DADT), saying that servicemembers who can't adjust to the change should think about leaving the military.

"If there are people who cannot deal with the change, then they're going to have to do what's best for their troops and best for the organization and best for the military service and exit the military service, so that we can move forward -- if that's the way that we have to go," said Command Sergeant Major Marvin Hill in an interview with Roland Martin on Washington Watch, set to air on Sunday.
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Old 12-11-2010, 12:36 AM   #157
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Couldn't have said it better myself .

Angela
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Old 12-11-2010, 02:46 PM   #158
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Can't wait to see how John McCain reacts.
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Old 12-14-2010, 06:23 PM   #159
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Susan Collins (R-ME)
Olympia Snowe (R-ME)
Richard Lugar (R-IN)
Judd Gregg (R-NH)
Scott Brown (R-MA)
George Voinovich (R-OH)
Kit Bond (R-MO)
Lisa Murkowski (R-AK)
Mark Kirk (R-IL)
Joe Manchin (D-WV)

Senate switchboard # is (202) 224-3121.

if you are represented by any of the above, please let them know you support the full repeal of DADT.

(that is, if you do)
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Old 12-14-2010, 06:35 PM   #160
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Can't contact any of those people, but I'll write the ones from my state. All of them, party lines being irrelevant. Think I'll do that right now, actually.

Angela
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Old 12-14-2010, 06:59 PM   #161
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Lugar's heard from me several times about this. Also about how disappointed I am that he went from upbraiding his own party for lame-duck obstructionism on START to turning around and joining them in exactly the same behavior (the tax filibuster). Atypically hyperpartisan of him.
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Old 12-14-2010, 09:53 PM   #162
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i wrote to Webb earlier in the year, and was rather impressed at the well-thought-out and reasoned email i received in response from his office.

apparently, these things do make a difference.
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Old 12-15-2010, 01:42 PM   #163
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Quote:
Most back repealing 'don't ask, don't tell,' poll says
By Ed O'Keefe and Jon Cohen

Eye Opener

Nearly eight in 10 Americans favor allowing gays and lesbians to serve openly in the military, according to a new Washington Post-ABC News poll.

The results signal continued widespread public support for ending the military's 17-year ban on gays in the military and come as Congress prepares to vote again on legislation ending the military's "don't ask, don't tell" law.

Overall, 77 percent of Americans say gays and lesbians who publicly disclose their sexual orientation should be able to serve in the military. That's little changed from polls over the two years, but represents the highest level of support in a Post-ABC poll. The support also cuts across partisan and ideological lines, with majorities of Democrats, Republicans, independents, liberals, conservatives and white evangelical Protestants in favor of homosexuals' serving openly.

The House of Representatives is set to vote Wednesday on a bill that would repeal "don't ask, don't tell," and it is expected to pass easily in the Democratic-dominated House; its fate in the Senate remains uncertain.

The survey asked "gays and lesbians" or "homosexuals," presenting each term to random half-samples of respondents. Both versions of the questions yielded similar results.

Respondents were also asked about gays and lesbians who do and do not publicly state their sexual orientation.

When asked -- "Do you think [homosexuals/gays and lesbians] who do NOT publicly disclose their sexual orientation should be allowed to serve in the military or not?" -- 83 percent of respondents said yes, 14 percent said no and 4 percent had no opinion. Again, the terms "Homosexuals" and "gays and lesbians" were used interchangeably by survey takers.

And when asked -- "Do you think [homosexuals/gays and lesbians] who DO publicly disclose their sexual orientation should be allowed to serve in the military or not?" -- 77 percent said yes, 21 percent said no and 2 percent had no opinion.

The results mirror the findings of a February Post/ABC poll that found 75 percent of Americans backed allowing gays serve openly in the military.

The poll was conducted Dec 9 to 12 and has a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 3.5 percentage points.

Federal Eye - Most back repealing 'don't ask, don't tell,' poll says


get. it. done.
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Old 12-15-2010, 05:12 PM   #164
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In a rational, just world the Republicans would be absolutely roasted for not letting this pass. (or for insisting on tax cuts for the rich while simultaneously decrying the massive deficit)
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Old 12-15-2010, 05:18 PM   #165
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In a rational, just world the Republicans would be absolutely roasted for not letting this pass. (or for insisting on tax cuts for the rich while simultaneously decrying the massive deficit)
*Nods* Seriously, if I were a Democrat, I'd totally be using this issue to show truly just how little the Republicans really care about national security. They're willing to risk letting really good military people go, people who could help protect us, because of this. I'd be hammering that point everywhere I could.

Angela
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