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Old 12-16-2010, 11:39 AM   #331
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i don't know how accurate those details are, as there is a lot of misinformation being bandied around the web, but it was apparently classed as "consensual sex" on the basis of the Swedish allegations... the case was also thrown out by a Swedish prosecutor several months ago as well... it just seems weird to me that it has suddenly been conveniently reopened...

wikileaks and alleged rape are two different issues altogether - it is possible to condone one and not the other...
Seems weird to me how some will dismiss certain criminal behavior because the person represents their Robin Hood against the "evil USA".
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Old 12-16-2010, 11:48 AM   #332
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Like say .... Michael Moore? He's taking some heat for some comments he made on MSNBC the other day.
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Old 12-16-2010, 11:58 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by adam4bono View Post
Do you consider stealing someone's private information "freedom of the press"?
Would you prefer if reporters never uncovered Watergate?

Not everything that is secret deserves to be so.
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Old 12-16-2010, 01:01 PM   #334
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So the fact that someone's life was endangered by the leaks of this material is "irrelevant"?

Wikileaks is taking private or classified information about wars and publishing it. That in of itself is senseless and wrong.

I seriously doubt that the majority of the military and civilian members of the coalition in Afghanistan are pleased that Wikileaks is making classified information available to Al Quada and the Taliban. The leaks certainly don't benefit the coalition and provide Al Quada and the Taliban information that they may not of found elsewhere.
Your question to me was irrelevant. First, it's not on me to confirm anything or not, second you ignore the context. My statement was, for the third time, that the accusation of wikileaks, and Assange more specifically, have no regard for the lives of people is false due to the fact that they are taking steps to prevent potentially dangerous information from being released. If indeed it happens that these steps prove not sufficient, then that is certainly of relevance, and would be reason for wikileaks, as well as the media involved, to overthink their policies of publication.
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Old 12-16-2010, 01:06 PM   #335
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So the fact that someone's life was endangered by the leaks of this material is "irrelevant"?

Wikileaks is taking private or classified information about wars and publishing it. That in of itself is senseless and wrong.

I seriously doubt that the majority of the military and civilian members of the coalition in Afghanistan are pleased that Wikileaks is making classified information available to Al Quada and the Taliban. The leaks certainly don't benefit the coalition and provide Al Quada and the Taliban information that they may not of found elsewhere.
3.4 million US Citizens had access to this material, it's hardly super top secret. If anyone had wanted to get access to it really badly, they'd have been able to find someone unscrupulous enough to give them it. In fact I'd imagine most of other countries intelligence forces already knew everything that's been posted. If anything the main crux of this whole story, is the complete and utter lack of information security in the US federal and military communication.

If Wikileaks point was to put the US military in danger then I doubt they'd have redacted as much has they have.
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Old 12-16-2010, 03:50 PM   #336
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Seems weird to me how some will dismiss certain criminal behavior because the person represents their Robin Hood against the "evil USA".
read my lips: i said "it is possible to condone one [i.e. Wikileaks] and not the other [i.e. alleged rape]"

(but fwiw, i still think it's a nasty smear campaign)

and, please don't try to put words in my mouth... the issues at stake here are much bigger than being "anti" a specific country...
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Old 12-16-2010, 06:20 PM   #337
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Of course. You do realise the United States is providing more than 90% of the forces and money in two major wars effect the security of the entire planet and the leaks involve classified information regarding these two wars. Can you name a country that had private or classified material leaked regarding a MORE SENSITIVE MATTER?
the united states should be funding those wars. they were entirely bush administration led.
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Old 12-16-2010, 06:52 PM   #338
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Exactly, coolian.

If the government's that concerned about that information being leaked then maybe they should've beefed up their security surrounding it better, eh? Besides, given the "reasoning" surrounding allowing these wars to happen in the first place, Iraq especially, perhaps some of it should be exposed. Especially since the wars aren't really doing a whole hell of a lot to make the world more secure.

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Like say .... Michael Moore? He's taking some heat for some comments he made on MSNBC the other day.
What'd he say?

Angela
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Old 12-16-2010, 07:43 PM   #339
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It's more about the ongoing misrepresentation in the media of the accusers' claims, and being dismissive of the women making the claims. Maybe that's not the type of thing that adam4bono was talking about, but it's what sprung to my mind because I had just read about it.

Here's a link to a site discussing it, with a link to also watch the video of Moore on Assange.

Michael Moore Calls Assange Rape Case "Hooey"

On Moore's website, he says: "Please -- never, ever believe the "official story." "

http://michaelmoore.com/words/mike-f...ing-bail-money

So ... what? Never, ever believe the women who are accusing Assange of rape? Great.

I don't know if Assange is guilty. But there's no need to belittle the women making the accusations or be dismissive of them. But I suppose the topic of rape culture and rape apologists is an entirely different topic for an entirely different thread.

Anyway. I know most people in here are more interested in talking about WikiLeaks rather than the accusations, so I'll shut up. (For now. )
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Old 12-16-2010, 07:45 PM   #340
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The many hair-dos of Julian Assange | Stuff.co.nz

god bless the internet media.
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Old 12-16-2010, 10:19 PM   #341
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With 250,000+ cables to sort through, it's worth pointing out it's highly likely that no one group has seen them all. What we've read so far is what newspapers are finding by slowly digging their way through the pile.

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US officials had evidence of widespread torture by Indian police and security forces and were secretly briefed by Red Cross staff about the systematic abuse of detainees in Kashmir, according to leaked diplomatic cables released tonight.

The dispatches, obtained by website WikiLeaks, reveal that US diplomats in Delhi were briefed in 2005 by the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) about the use of electrocution, beatings and sexual humiliation against hundreds of detainees.

Other cables show that as recently as 2007 American diplomats were concerned about widespread human rights abuses by Indian security forces, who they said relied on torture for confessions.

The revelations will be intensely embarrassing for Delhi, which takes pride in its status as the world's biggest democracy, and come at a time of heightened sensitivity in Kashmir after renewed protests and violence this year.

Other cables released tonight reveal that:

• The Dalai Lama has told US officials that combating climate change is more urgent than finding a political solution in Tibet, which "can wait five to 10 years".

• Rahul Gandhi, the crown prince of Indian politics, believes Hindu extremists pose a greater threat to his country than Muslim militants, according to the American ambassador to India.

• Five doctors were coerced by the Sri Lankan government to recant on casualty figures they gave to journalists in the last months of island's brutal civil war.

The most highly charged dispatch is likely to be an April 2005 cable from the US embassy in Delhi which reports that the ICRC had become frustrated with the Indian government which, they said, had not acted to halt the "continued ill-treatment of detainees".

The embassy reported the ICRC concluded that India "condones torture" and that the torture victims were civilians as militants were routinely killed.

The ICRC has a long-standing policy of engaging directly with governments and avoiding the media, so the briefing remained secret.

An insurgency pitting separatist and Islamist militants – many supported by Pakistan – against security services raged in Kashmir throughout the 1990s and into the early years of this decade.

It claimed tens of thousands of lives, including large numbers of civilians who were targeted by both militants and security forces.

The ICRC staff told the US diplomats they had made 177 visits to detention centres in Jammu and Kashmir and elsewhere in India between 2002 and 2004, and had met 1,491 detainees. They had been able to interview 1,296 privately.

In 852 cases, the detainees reported ill-treatment, the ICRC said. A total of 171 described being beaten and 681 said they had been subjected to one or more of six forms of torture.

These included 498 on which electricity had been used, 381 who had been suspended from the ceiling, 294 who had muscles crushed in their legs by prison personnel sitting on a bar placed across their thighs, 181 whose legs had been stretched by being "split 180 degrees", 234 tortured with water and 302 "sexual" cases, the ICRC were reported to have told the Americans.

"Numbers add up to more than 681, as many detainees were subjected to more than one form of IT [ill-treatment]," the cable said.

The ICRC said all branches of the Indian security forces used these forms of ill-treatment and torture, adding: "The abuse always takes place in the presence of officers and ... detainees were rarely militants (they are routinely killed), but persons connected to or believed to have information about the insurgency".

The cable said the situation in Kashmir was "much better" as security forces no longer roused entire villages in the middle of the night and detained inhabitants indiscriminately, and there was "more openness from medical doctors and the police."

Ten years ago, the ICRC said there were some 300 detention centres, but there are now "a lot fewer". The organisation had never however gained access to the "Cargo Building", the most notorious detention centre, in Srinagar.

The abuse continued, they said, because "security forces need promotions," while for militants, "the insurgency has become a business".

In the same cable, American diplomats approvingly quoted media reports that India's army chief, Lieutenant-General Joginder Jaswant Singh, had "put human rights issues at the centre of an [recent] conference of army commanders".

The ICRC said a "bright spot" was that it had been able to conduct 300 sessions sensitising junior officers from the security forces to human rights.

The cables reveal a careful US policy of pressure in Kashmir, while maintaining a strictly neutral stance.

Two years after the cable on torture was sent, US diplomats in India argued strongly against granting a visa request from the government of India on behalf of a member of the Jammu and Kashmir state assembly who was invited to a conference organised by a think-tank in America.

Usman Abdul Majid, a cable marked secret said, "is a leader of the pro-GOI [government of India] Ikhwan-ul-Musilmeen paramilitary group, which ... is notorious for its use of torture, extra-judicial killing, rape, and extortion of Kashmiri civilians suspected of harbouring or facilitating terrorists."

The diplomats admitted that denying Majid's application might have some repercussions with Indian officials, "especially those from India's Intelligence Bureau who have been close to his case" but said it was essential to preserve a balanced approach to the Kashmir issue following the prior refusal of a visa to the leading separatist leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani.

The cable notes that officials are "unable to verify with evidence the claims against Majid".

US diplomats repeatedly refer to human rights abuses by security and law enforcement agencies within India. In a cable from February 2006, officials reported that "terrorism investigations and court cases tend to rely upon confessions, many of which are obtained under duress if not beatings, threats, or, in some cases, torture".

A year later a brief for the visiting acting coordinator for counter-terrorism, Frank Urbancic, described India's police and security forces as "overworked and hampered by bad ... practices, including the widespread use of torture in interrogations.".
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Old 12-17-2010, 12:21 AM   #342
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There's a very good reason why both the ICRC's own statutes and the Geneva Conventions require it to deal confidentially and directly with governments--not the media--when intervening on behalf of detainees.
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Old 12-17-2010, 12:38 AM   #343
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There's a very good reason why both the ICRC's own statutes and the Geneva Conventions require it to deal confidentially and directly with governments--not the media--when intervening on behalf of detainees.
When/do they usually publicize these sorts of reports at a later date?
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Old 12-17-2010, 01:03 AM   #344
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No. By international law, they can't even be compelled to testify in international criminal tribunals. They do regularly issue news releases offering overall views of the human rights situation in particular countries and regions they work in, but not specifics on violations of human rights law they encounter when visiting detainees. As a last resort, if being denied access altogether, then they might choose to expose some specifics.

ICRC.org - Confidentiality
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It's the people we are trying to help who may suffer most when our confidential findings wind up in the public domain.

If this happens, the authorities could stop us from visiting certain people or places, making it impossible for us to help them. It can take a very long time to build back trust and regain access.

In the meantime, it's the people who look to the ICRC for protection and assistance, including detainees, displaced groups and families torn apart by war, who bear the brunt of our absence.
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Old 12-17-2010, 01:09 AM   #345
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Would you prefer if reporters never uncovered Watergate?
Definitely.


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Not everything that is secret deserves to be so.
True, but wikileaks has no right to decide what deserves to be secret. These are matters of national security, and not about some journalists wet dream.
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