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Old 12-11-2010, 05:09 PM   #271
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Of course the illness is severe. So what. If you had children who were ill, would you like a pharma monster to test new drugs on them without your knowledge? Does that make it any better?
of course not! read my post - i said there were "ethical issues with consent/approval" didn't i ffs?! i wasn't defending Pfizer! however, the after-effects you specifically mentioned are sadly very common effects which are caused by the illness! did you know that more than 12000 people lost their lives in that meningitis epidemic? and yes i think it's disgusting if Pfizer capitalised on that crisis to hurry their R&D thru! no need to be so patronising... jeesus
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Old 12-11-2010, 05:19 PM   #272
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Wow. Sounds like there's been quite a lot of misinformation about the allegations-slash-potential-charges against Assange.

AOL News at the center of “sex by surprise” lie in Assange’s rape case | Jessica Valenti

The allegations against WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange are pretty straightforward in terms of Swedish law: he’s been accused of rape, sexual molestation and unlawful coercion. The charges allege that Assange held one woman down using his body weight to sexually assault her and that he raped another woman while she was sleeping.

Yet the media – everyone from Naomi Wolf and Glenn Beck to bloggers across the internet – is reporting that Assange is being charged with “sex by surprise,” or some bizarre Swedish law having to do with a condom breaking, not rape. Multiple reports also characterize the sex as consensual.

The truth? There’s nothing in Swedish law about “sex by surprise” or broken condoms.
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Old 12-11-2010, 05:35 PM   #273
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Wow. Sounds like there's been quite a lot of misinformation about the charges against Assange.

AOL News at the center of “sex by surprise” lie in Assange’s rape case | Jessica Valenti

The allegations against WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange are pretty straightforward in terms of Swedish law: he’s been accused of rape, sexual molestation and unlawful coercion. The charges allege that Assange held one woman down using his body weight to sexually assault her and that he raped another woman while she was sleeping.

Yet the media – everyone from Naomi Wolf and Glenn Beck to bloggers across the internet – is reporting that Assange is being charged with “sex by surprise,” or some bizarre Swedish law having to do with a condom breaking, not rape. Multiple reports also characterize the sex as consensual.

The truth? There’s nothing in Swedish law about “sex by surprise” or broken condoms.
Assange hasn't actually been charged with anything yet Corianderstem... it's still just allegations for the moment...

i just read this article and thought it was interesting...

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Why did I back Julian Assange? It's about justice and fairness
Even my mother asked why I would stand surety for an alleged rapist. I was there because I believe this is about censorship

Jemima Khan
guardian.co.uk, Saturday 11 December 2010 21.30 GMT


Why did I offer to provide surety for an alleged rapist, a man I have never met? That's the question even my mother asked me after I appeared in court for Julian Assange.

That morning I had sent a spur-of-the-moment message of support by email to Assange's lawyer, Mark Stephens, when I read of his arrest. He immediately responded and asked if I would be prepared to come to court in the next hour to act as a surety for Assange. I was nervous about the inevitable media circus, but felt that it was the right thing to do after being convinced by Stephens that it could help.

Assange has not even been charged, let alone convicted. Swedish prosecutors do not have to produce any evidence that he committed the alleged sexual offences to justify the warrant. On the basis of the allegations that I heard read out in court, the evidence seems feeble, but I concede that I don't know the full facts. Neither does Assange. Stockholm's chief prosecutor, Eva Finne, who heard the evidence against Assange in August, threw the case out of court, saying: "I don't think there is reason to suspect that he has committed rape."

That is not the reason I was there. I was there because I believe that this is about censorship and intimidation. The timing of these rehashed allegations is highly suspicious, coinciding with the recent WikiLeaks revelations and reinvigorated by a rightwing Swedish politician. There are credible rumours that this is a holding charge while an indictment is being sought in secret for his arrest and extradition to the US. An accusation of rape is the ultimate gag. Until proved otherwise, Assange has done nothing illegal, yet he is behind bars.

There is a fundamental injustice here. There are calls for the punishment (execution even) of the man who has reported war crimes, but not for those that perpetrated or sanctioned them.

On the one hand, the US is proud of its First Amendment and its long-standing commitment to the freedom of speech. It was announced last week that the US is to host next year's Unesco World Press Freedom Day event, which champions in particular "the free flow of information in this digital age".

On the other hand, it is examining ways to take legal action against Assange, who is in effect editor of the world's first stateless (non-profit) media organisation. It has blocked access to the WikiLeaks website and denied its citizens the ability to register protest through donations, all without a warrant. It has also successfully pressured Amazon, Visa, Mastercard and PayPal to withdraw their services from WikiLeaks, as well as the Swiss bank PostFinance, to close Assange's account.

WikiLeaks offers a new type of investigative journalism. I have my doubts about whether some cables should have been leaked – for example, the list of infrastructure sites vital to national security – and I share the concern that diplomacy could suffer as a result of others. But I feel passionately that democracy needs a strong and free media. It is the only way to ensure governments are honest and remain accountable.

WikiLeaks has revealed that we have been told a great many lies about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and that there has been little accountability. How are the recent revelations regarding America's secret war in Yemen not in the public interest? Don't American citizens have the right to know that, contrary to official denials, they have paid for cruise missile attacks on Yemen, which have accidentally killed 200 civilians?

I have a personal interest in the revelations about Pakistan, which highlight what many of us have long feared: that contrary to assurances from Pakistan's leaders, the US is fully ensconced, with bases and special forces, that there have been unreported civilian deaths and that the unwinnable war in Afghanistan is spilling over the border into its weak, corrupt and nuclear neighbour. The best justification governments can find to shut down information is that lives are at risk. In fact, lives have been at risk as a result of the silences and lies revealed in these leaks.

Exposés have always been initiated by leaks. As Assange himself has said: "If journalism is good, it's controversial." Without illicit information President Nixon would not have been forced to resign, we would never have known about the abuse of detainees by US personnel at Abu Ghraib, nor that US intelligence was phone-tapping and looking at emails without warrants. Daniel Ellsberg has said that when he released the Pentagon papers during the Vietnam war he suffered similar attacks. He was put on trial for theft and conspiracy and stolen medical files were used to discredit him. Now he's viewed as a journalistic hero.

If WikiLeaks is a terrorist organisation, as New York congressman Pete King stated, and if its founder, Julian Assange, is prosecuted for espionage, the future of investigative journalism everywhere is in jeopardy, as is our right as citizens to be told the truth.
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Old 12-11-2010, 05:39 PM   #274
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Assange hasn't actually been charged with anything yet Corianderstem... it's still just allegations for the moment...
Oh, okay. Thanks for correcting me - I'll edit. I hadn't realized he hadn't yet been charged. Is "pending charges" an accurate way to state it?

I thought it was interesting more to the point of how the story had been misrepresented in the media, how there were debates about condoms breaking and "sex by surprise," and how that immediately made the conversation turn towards the accusers, which is kind of par for the course anyway with many rape accusations.

I don't have an opinion about Assange himself, as obviously I don't have all the facts. But I found it very telling about the story so far and what I had just read and linked to.
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Old 12-11-2010, 05:39 PM   #275
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“sex by surprise”

should be illegal,
a 'surprise' gift should be for the benefit of the receiver, not the giver.
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Old 12-11-2010, 05:56 PM   #276
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Oh, okay. Thanks for correcting me - I'll edit. I hadn't realized he hadn't yet been charged. Is "pending charges" an accurate way to state it?

I thought it was interesting more to the point of how the story had been misrepresented in the media, how there were debates about condoms breaking and "sex by surprise," and how that immediately made the conversation turn towards the accusers, which is kind of par for the course anyway with many rape accusations.

I don't have an opinion about Assange himself, as obviously I don't have all the facts. But I found it very telling about the story so far and what I had just read and linked to.
i don't know if "pending charges" is accurate or not... from what i've read, the Swedish prosecutors just want to "interview" him about the allegations...

i kind of feel wikileaks and these allegations should be two separate issues, but obviously the whole media/governmental circus is blurring the boundaries... the allegations seem to be being used to detract and distract from the central issues at stake really... there are rumours of conspiracy theories and honeytraps, or maybe it is coincidence, but it is being used as a smear campaign against him and wikileaks... and i think one of the greatest concerns is that the US is apparently looking into ways of indicting Assange - he's now conveniently behind bars remanded in British custody having been refused bail, and if he is extradited to Sweden there are fears that he could then be extradited to the US, where people are literally baying for his blood...

it worries me that, out of this whole thing, the only two people behind bars right now are Assange and a 16-year-old hacker involved with the Operation Payback defending wikileaks... which is kind of crazy i feel... guilty until proven innocent it seems...

it's kind of startling because "less severe or low level rape", as they put it, would not normally warrant the "international manhunt" type of attention this case has been getting, plus the backlash the women involved are facing is pretty scary to say the least...
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Old 12-11-2010, 05:57 PM   #277
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"allegations-slash-potential-charges"

There. That oughta cover it.
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Old 12-11-2010, 06:07 PM   #278
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"allegations-slash-potential-charges"

There. That oughta cover it.
lmfao!!!
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Old 12-11-2010, 06:59 PM   #279
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Hip Hop, are you drunk?
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Old 12-11-2010, 08:13 PM   #280
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The effects of leftist handwringing and Geldof concerts are debatable, agreed. Anyway, I´d like to hear from you what it is Pfizer is doing so great.

Pfizer's pain can be your gain - MSN Money

A Prescription For Doing Good – Pfizer’s New Ethonomic Treatment Plan | Fast Company


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The company tested the untested medication Trovan with 100 children and used Ceftriaxone with another 100 children. 6 out of 100 children died on Trovan, 5 children with Ceftriaxone. Dozens of children were left disabled, with brain damage or paralyzed. Pfizer did not ask the parents of the children before testing, they did not have any approval from parents or Nigerian authorities.


Anti-smoking drugs that have not only been tested on adults, mainly in the west, but are available from any pharmacist on prescription, have been found to have serious side effects, including inducing suicidal ideation, among a minority of people that take them. The intentions of 'Big Pharma' in both cases, however, are surely basically good ones - curing smokers of their terrible addiction, or finding a cure for the very dangerous illness and life threatening illness of meningitis. Without wanting to slam Geldof or Bono too much, they have probably done less for the third world than scientists working their ass off to find cures for Aids, for example.

However, back to the Nigerian case - if the parents were not asked to give consent, I fully agree that this is utterly wrong and I condemn it without reservation.

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Do you know anyone working in the pharma industry, financeguy? I do.
I do know two scientists working in the Irish branch of Pfizer, but not well enough to have had in-depth conversations about their work or, for that matter, their views on the ethics of their employer, whether positive or negative. I have no direct personal connection with the pharma industry, and have never worked in the industry myself. It is possible that my opinions are biased towards Pfizer because the two individuals I happen to know that work there seem to me to be well-adjusted, responsible and talented people.

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The contrary is the case: patent laws have to be broken to transport AZT and 3TC from Brazil to South Africa, while the original drugs by GlaxoSmithKline and Boehringer Ingelheim cost more than the double.
HTB – South African treatment activists defy patent laws to import generic antiretrovirals from Brazil - one could argue that breaking patent law is a great example for "free market capitalism in action", not the other way round.
There needs to be tough anti-trust regulations to circumvent this predator behaviour. One of the problems of the neo-liberal era is abuses due to lack of proper enforcement. I would never argue for regulations to be thrown out the window, Adam Smith warned us two hundred years ago of the dangers of this and of oligopolistic behavior.
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Old 12-12-2010, 12:25 AM   #281
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I could give a flying fuck about your idiotic comment. A minority!! That´s surely why 100.000 civilians were killed in Iraq, yeah? If there is anything WAY out of line, it´s your comment. Undeniable, it must have been a minority while the majority of the brave soldiers join the army to defend American soil which never was attacked, and to spread democracy throughout the world, by killing journalists and torturing children on their way to democracy!! Undeniable!!

Go on defending the U.S. army, Putzy. Just do me the favor and open your own thread.
Is your only issue that there was no attack on American soil? Take that up with the people who decide who we declare war on. That too is a very small minority.

I'm not defending the war or the actions of those who kill the innocent. I'm simply stating the fact that those people represent a minority. It's not an opinion.
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Old 12-12-2010, 01:49 AM   #282
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It is exactly akin to calling all Muslims terrorists because of the actions of a few extremists.
Wait, I remember this is exactly the propaganda the U.S. mainstream media and citizens followed after Sept.11.

And it´s still going on in 2010 - from beating up 13-16 yr old juveniles, suspecting 7 year old boys at the airport, to adults quoting history to engage in a campaign against a mosque on Ground Zero.

Teen in US beaten, called a 'terrorist' by classmates for being Muslim

Dad: Muslim Son Beaten, Called Terrorist | MyFoxHouston.com

Seven-year-old Muslim boy stopped in US three times on suspicion of being a terrorist | News

EA WorldView - Home - US Politics Video: Muslims=Terrorists=Al Qa'eda=Conquest Campaign Ad of theYear

That´s why I see no problem in saying that the majority of U.S. Army is torturing people, shooting children from helicopters and being proud of how many civilians they have killed each and every day.

Maybe you should just admit it. Probably you should watch that footage as many times as you have watched the planes flying into WTC.

You also should admit that U.S. soldiers multiplied WTC 20 times in Iraq, according to the number of civilian deaths. It´s fair to say that for the Iraqis, your glorified Army´s actions are about 20 times worse than 9/11.
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Old 12-12-2010, 01:59 AM   #283
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If you can't make your point without slinging insults, them you should probably just not post. Or wait until you can without the personal attacks.
You chose to shrug off the "ignorant little dipshit" part. Not that I really care, just fyi.
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Old 12-12-2010, 02:27 AM   #284
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I'm simply stating the fact that those people represent a minority. It's not an opinion.
It´s not a fact, it is what you believe. If this is a fact, show the evidence. Have you personally been interviewing 4,000 soldiers and "only" 200 of them killed innocent civilians and tortured children? Nope. Firstly, I don´t think you have evidence to declare this as fact; secondly, a minority could also be, say, 40% of the U.S. Army.

Maybe the other 60% are brave people who never fired a gun, promote peace in the region and spread democracy, very funny. Indeed, you are coming to the defense of the actions of the U.S. Army. By saying, it´s "just a very small minority" responsible for tens of thousands of civilian deaths, you trivialize the crimes, while your secretary of state Hillary Clinton orders diplomacy and secret services to spy on the U.N., pressures governments, Spain's judiciary, and buys foreign assistance with detentions at Guantanamo Bay.

Latest Wikileaks disclosures hint at US diplomatic tactics in Spain and beyond | The Nelson Daily

And instead of calling me ignorant, you´d be better off asking the U.S. Army about 200 civilians killed in Yemen.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/document.p...U2010120119801
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Old 12-12-2010, 02:48 AM   #285
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Hip Hop, are you drunk?
Pac_Mule, is that how you start a smear campaign?
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