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Old 12-05-2010, 04:44 PM   #136
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Of course, they're all looking for something to feed their anti-U.S. sentiment.
Not really.

A lot of the diplomatic cables centre on looking at the goings-on in other governments, and Europeans are having more of a chuckle at some of their own politicians (and those of the Middle East) than at the expense of the U.S.

I think there has recently been a lot more positive U.S. sentiment out there since Obama, a seemingly more progressive leader, was elected. Recently, European sentiment has been trending more towards "don't really have time to have many sentiments towards the U.S., brb, economy collapsing".

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I hear those kinds of comments about demanding more government transparency very rarely. When I do, it's usually coming from people who think the government is lying and covering up EVERYTHING (JFK, 9/11, etc.) so I don't listen to them anyways.
Grouping folks who want a more transparent government in with tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists is a little much there, Pac Mule.

I think you too often try to place things in a "right" or "wrong" column, and for most issues there is no A or B to sort everything into.

That kind of thinking got the U.S. into Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq: The Next Generation.

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Personally, one of the many reasons I (and probably many others) am bothered by wikileaks is because all this information is coming from a guy who isn't even an American, let alone a member of our government. He's simply a self-righteous prick. He doesn't care what happens to America because of anything he releases. He's just feeding anti-American sentiment, which I really don't think the world needs more of. Which brings me to my other point, that this actually DOES bother many other countries, particularly in the Middle-East.
Again, you go out of your way to attack Assange (who is a bit of a twat) when the documents were leaked by Bradley Manning, a U.S. soldier.



The mistake you make here is the same error the Pentagon made when trying to "censor" a book by buying thousands of copies from Amazon.com. In this day and age, when information is "out there", it's "out there".

Whether WikiLeaks ended up hosting the cables on their own rented servers, or if it was another whistleblowing website, or your aunt Sally's internet connection; it doesn't really matter. When it's out there, it's gone, vamos, nothing you can do about it.

~

You make some good points sometimes, The_Pac_Mule, but I think you might benefit from doing some more research and broadening your perspective on an issue before diving in with guns blazing, to be honest.
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Old 12-05-2010, 05:13 PM   #137
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WikiLeaks: Kiwi beaches matters to America | Stuff.co.nz

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Two Auckland beaches have been declared crucial to American security in a cable written by US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.

The cable, written in February last year, is among today's dump by whistleblower WikiLeaks.

New Zealand's sole reference relates to the Southern Cross Cable, a fibre optic link between the US, Australia and New Zealand, via Fiji.

The cable comes ashore on Takapuna beach and is buried in a 15 kilometre link across the North Shore and via Whenuapai before diving back into the sea at the Manukau Harbour and heading out to Australia.

Clinton's cable requires embassies around the world to built a list of "critical infrastructure and key resources" aboard that could be part of a National Infrastructure Protection Plan.

"The overarching goal of the NIPP is to build a safer, more secure, and more resilient America by enhancing protection of the nation's CI/KR to prevent, deter, neutralize or mitigate the effects of deliberate efforts by terrorists to destroy, incapacitate or exploit them; and to strengthen national preparedness, timely response, and rapid recovery in the event of an attack, natural disaster or other emergency," Clinton says.

Referring to sites outside the US, she said they want to "identify these critical US foreign dependencies - foreign CI/KR that may affect systems within the US directly or indirectly".

Embassies are asked to report on the state of security around the facilities and they are told not - twice - to "consult with host governments".

New Zealand is listed as: "Southern Cross undersea cable landing, Whenuapai, New Zealand Southern Cross undersea cable landing, Takapuna."

The Fiji Southern Cross landing spot is also designated as vital to US security.
fuck. scandalous!
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Old 12-05-2010, 05:58 PM   #138
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governments don't stop at anything when it comes to strategy and own interests.... sovereignty, what's that?! lol

i don't know why but it got me thinking on Diego Garcia just now... it's late, i'm tired and my mind is drifting...
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Old 12-05-2010, 06:11 PM   #139
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that was it... a lot of the leaks are things we know about already, but sometimes they do fill in some gaps and make you go "aha!"

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The Diego Garcia depopulation controversy pertains to the expulsion of those inhabitants qualifying as indigenous from the island of Diego Garcia and the other islands of the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT), beginning in 1968 and concluding on 27 April 1973 with the evacuation of Peros Banhos atoll.[1] These people were known at the time as the ‘’Ilois’’; today they are known as ‘’Chagos Islanders’’, or ‘’Chagossians’’.
Some Chagossians and human rights advocates have claimed that the Chagossian right of occupation was violated by the British Foreign Office as a result of the 1966 agreement[2] between the UK and US to provide an unpopulated island for a US military base, and that additional compensation[3] and a right of return[4] be provided.
Legal action to claim compensation and the right of abode in the Chagos began in April 1973 when 280 islanders, represented by a Mauritian attorney, petitioned the Government of Mauritius to distribute the £650,000 compensation provided in 1972 by the British government for distribution by the Mauritian Government (it was not distributed until 1977).[5] In October 1974, after receiving no assistance from the Mauritian Government, a Mr. Saminaden and Mr. Michel Vincatassin presented the British High Commissioner to Mauritius with a petition detailing the lack of support the islanders had received from the Mauritian government, noting that 40 islanders had died since arriving on Mauritius, and asking for the UK Government to work on their behalf with the Mauritian Government, or to return the Ilois to the Chagos.[6]
From this initial petitioning grew a series of presentations and lawsuits culminating in the 27 March 1982 agreement among the British Government, the Mauritian Government, and the Islanders (numbering 1,419 adults and 160 minors),[7] which was intended to settle all islander claims for the sum of £4 millions in cash from the British Government and £1 million in land from the Mauritius Government.[8]
Beginning in 1983, a new series of compensation claims were made against the British Government by an Ilois group called the Chagos Refugee Group, located on Mauritius. The founders and officers formed the core of inhabitants who, beginning in 1999, brought three lawsuits to British Courts - in 1999,[9] 2002,[10] and 2006[4] - and one to an American Court in 2001,[11] all requesting additional compensation and the right of abode in the Chagos. The U.S. case and two of these three British cases were defeated on appeal, the other was not appealed[9] by the British Government.
In 2005, these same litigants filed a brief with the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR), which was brought before that court in 2008 following the final defeat of the final British lawsuit before the House of Lords, and that case remains in litigation as of August 2010.
The British government has consistently denied any illegalities in the expulsion. Even so, various officials (including the Foreign Minister) have apologised to the Chagossians for long-ago wrongdoing,[12] while still disputing that the deportees have a right to be repatriated at this time. On April 1, 2010, the British Cabinet announced the creation of the world’s largest Marine Protected Area (MPA) which consists of most of the Chagos Archipelago, homeland of the Chagossians.[13] The MPA will prohibit extractive industry of all kinds, including commercial fishing and oil and gas exploration. Some Chagossians have claimed that this MPA was created to prevent the islanders from returning to the islands.[14][15][16] The UK Government claims that the restrictions of the MPA will be modified pending the decision of the ECHR.[17]
and BINGO!

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On December 1, 2010, a leaked US Embassy London diplomatic cable [18] exposed British and US intentions in creating the marine nature reserve. The cable relays exchanges between US Political Counselor Richard Mills and British Director of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office Colin Roberts, in which Roberts "asserted that establishing a marine park would, in effect, put paid to resettlement claims of the archipelago’s former residents." Richard Mills concludes:
Establishing a marine reserve might, indeed, as the FCO’s Roberts stated, be the most effective long-term way to prevent any of the Chagos Islands’ former inhabitants or their descendants from resettling in the [British Indian Ocean Territory].
The cable (reference ID "09LONDON1156") was classified as confidential and "no foreigners", and leaked as part of the Cablegate cache.
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Old 12-05-2010, 06:46 PM   #140
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Nice! I'm all for MPAs. We need them, and we need more. Only .1 percent of all waters are protected from fishing, yet more than 75 percent of all fish species of interest to human consumption or vital to marine biodiversity are at the brink of extinction.

It might still be justified on ecological and species-related grounds, but nonetheless it's quite a shame.
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Old 12-05-2010, 08:27 PM   #141
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I believe Manning was a low-level intelligence officer, and therefore had access to the relevant database.

None of the documents released were highly classified, nor do they really tell us much that we don't already know, nor do they directly put lives in jeopardy. They are just embarrassing for the U.S. Government and diplomatic corps, since it's the equivalent of having one's dirty laundry aired for the entire world to see, or one's diary read aloud in class.

The Apache-vs-Journalists in a van "d'oh" moment was much more scandalous than this shit, Headache.
Bull it doesn't put lives at risk. Talk to that iranian doctor who had his escape outed about how safe he feels about his family. Im sure he's just super thrilled about all this.
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Old 12-05-2010, 08:43 PM   #142
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You don´t get it. I´m European and don´t have anti-U.S. sentiments. I have anti-corruption and anti-crime sentiments. I had anti Bush-sentiments when he still was in office, and probably have anti-Palin sentiments since she confuses north with south korea. But hey, anti-U.S.? Absolutely not. Many Americans have more anti-U.S. sentiments than I do - i.e. the mothers of the young men who died in Iraq. Most Europeans have more anti-E.U. sentiments than Americans, because of the neo-liberal policies the E.U. establishes. Look at all the protests in europe. This is not anti-U.S. it has nothing to do with America, just with the corrupt European politicians cutting social and education budgets while "bailing out" the banks, deportation flights for asylum seekers etc.
Do you want to live in a world where the global policeman is Russia or China?
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Old 12-05-2010, 09:22 PM   #143
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Do you want to live in a world where the global policeman is Russia or China?
What kind of populist question is that? Are you moderating local talkshows lately?
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Old 12-05-2010, 09:27 PM   #144
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Not really.

A lot of the diplomatic cables centre on looking at the goings-on in other governments, and Europeans are having more of a chuckle at some of their own politicians (and those of the Middle East) than at the expense of the U.S.

I think there has recently been a lot more positive U.S. sentiment out there since Obama, a seemingly more progressive leader, was elected. Recently, European sentiment has been trending more towards "don't really have time to have many sentiments towards the U.S., brb, economy collapsing".
You nailed it. Today I read an interesting note about Sarlozy going to bed with Lula. The France-Brazil axis.
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Old 12-05-2010, 09:49 PM   #145
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What kind of populist question is that? Are you moderating local talkshows lately?
You need to get off the godamn moral high ground for one sec and realise how the world works. Your socialist dreamworld utopia has zero connection with reality.
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Old 12-05-2010, 10:49 PM   #146
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Do you want to live in a world where the global policeman is Russia or China?
It's a fair question.

Russia is holding onto any remaining global power following the Cold War, and is really not realistically comparable to the U.S. or China. Yes, they have oil, and an ageing military, but not much else going for them.

China will be truly interesting and a "global security risk" when the have-nots begin to climb their way up in society and get close enough to the "haves" to want what they do not have. Then, it's revolution, overthrow of the communist government, and shit will hit the fan internationally.

The U.S., as the current, uh, "global policeman" is a policeman who recently sent the highest law enforcement officer in the land on a successful legal mission to find prisoner torture legal, so your pulsing hard-on for America might be a bit unwarranted.

9/11 was an international pop quiz for the United States, in terms of how they reacted. And they've failed it miserably. Bin Laden is laughing somewhere at all the chaos he's wrought by pushing the U.S. over the edge politically.
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Old 12-05-2010, 11:33 PM   #147
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which would be fine if there was actually any chaos.........which of course there isn't

another attack on the United States would truly be a death knell for those responsible

never before in the history of mankind has a country with the power of the U.S. been so merciful towards those who would destroy us, a mercy, i will add, that is not limitless
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Old 12-05-2010, 11:34 PM   #148
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you'll go well in australia
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Old 12-05-2010, 11:46 PM   #149
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at least now i can tell people the truth as to why i'm here.
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Old 12-06-2010, 12:01 AM   #150
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which would be fine if there was actually any chaos.........which of course there isn't

another attack on the United States would truly be a death knell for those responsible

never before in the history of mankind has a country with the power of the U.S. been so merciful towards those who would destroy us, a mercy, i will add, that is not limitless
Dick Cheney is that you?
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