"Why most of what you believe about dogs is rubbish"

[financeguy]

Why most of what you believe about dogs is rubbish – Telegraph Blogs

 

[Liesje]

Yes and no

 

[deep]

the comments are pretty good

iancrompton
Yesterday 09:28 PM

Domestic dogs are menace and should be banned by the EU due to -
- increased environmental impact through all the food they eat, and their excretions
- spread of disease through their poo and wee on our streets
- excessive noise through incessant barking
- attacks on innocent runners (like me)
- attacks on babies and children
- chavs have them to intimidate people

coldfinger
Yesterday 11:32 PM

I'll forgive them the rest just for attacking runners.

 

[Irvine511]

want a dog want a dog want a dog ...

 

[yolland]

Same here. Hopefully this fall. We're thinking about a Boxer at this point.

 

[Irvine511]

Boxers are awesome. we have friends with one and he's a love.

we'll have to move from our high rise before we can own a dog. not quite ready for that yet, and the apartment is empty a good 10+ hours a day, so our present work-centric lifestyle would prevent us from being ideal owners, and the last thing i would ever do is neglect a dog.

we both love bulldogs, French or English, and if not that then something no bigger than 50lbs and one that can easily adapt to city life (i.e., no golden retrievers for us).

 

[Earnie Shavers]

To be fair, most of what they likely believe about us is probably rubbish too.

 

[Liesje]

Boxers are awesome. we have friends with one and he's a love.

we'll have to move from our high rise before we can own a dog. not quite ready for that yet, and the apartment is empty a good 10+ hours a day, so our present work-centric lifestyle would prevent us from being ideal owners, and the last thing i would ever do is neglect a dog.

we both love bulldogs, French or English, and if not that then something no bigger than 50lbs and one that can easily adapt to city life (i.e., no golden retrievers for us).

French are smaller, probably have less health problems too b/c they are not as "exaggerated" as the English. I've heard Italian Greyhounds are good for apartment/city living. As for smallish dogs, the ones that interest me are the Patterdale terrier, Pembroke Corgi (I've heard the Cardis have better energy and drive but I just can't stand the dwarfed type legs), or the Swedish Vallhund.

I like Boxers but probably won't ever have one because they have so many known health issues and the brachycephalic dogs do not fit my environment/lifestyle (they do not handle extreme temps well and of course we have long, cold winters and hot, humid summers, plus with all the training I do the dog needs to be able to adapt to this). Phil has always wanted one but I think he's finally changed his mind.

In reality I will probably never own anything but German Shepherds and we will probably just get a shelter lab mix as our next family dog.

Anyway, as to the actual article....I find it difficult to respond. Making such sweeping claims about dog training and how dogs learn in one short, mainstream .com type article is almost not worth responding to. The first thing that stood out to me was that it was written by a biologist, not someone with advanced degrees in applied animal behavior (which is more like psychology). Second, he is writing off entire quadrants of operant conditioning based on extreme, outdated examples. Third, what a lot of these people who like to make sweeping generalizations about dog training seem to overlook is the vast differences in breed and breed type with regard to a dog's drives, threshold, recovery, things that make up temperament. When you study how a German Shepherd is trained vs. a Pug you might as well be comparing two different species. Also, I always have to wonder if someone like this has, you know, actually trained any dogs? Not just the sit, stay, don't counter surf but trained to the level of competition and titling that takes years to develop a working relationship with the dog (also something largely ignored....the nature of the relationship between dog and handler and how that motivates the dog's training and work). You'd be surprised at how many people haven't. Studying the history of dog training and actually training dogs on a daily basis leads to very different conclusions.

 

[yolland]

Italian greyhounds are great apartment dogs, though I doubt most folks with an affinity for bully breeds would be much drawn to them since their looks and temperament are so different. French bulldogs have always reminded me quite a bit of pugs in temperament, actually--same little-Napoleon tendencies, same strong obstinate streak (both of which can be endearing or annoying, depending on your perspective and mood), though they are more self-contained, less mischievous, and not as spazz-prone. I do like Corgis, handsome little dogs and very smart, though in my limited experience they can tend to be a bit barky and nippy?

For basic family-dog purposes though, honestly my (thoroughly unprofessional) feeling about this is that too many people exaggerate the '"lazy, wheezy, couch-potato bully breed" stereotype then turn that into an excuse to allow their bulldog/pug/whatever to deteriorate into, well, a lazy, wheezy couch potato, to the detriment of its health, longevity and quality of life. If you want a dog you can take on a vigorous run, play hard-hitting games with for hours on end, take on long hikes in the hills at the height of summer, or make live in a doghouse outdoors, then no, these definitely aren't the breeds for you. But Falstaff (pug) went on many a 6-mile hike in all but the hottest weather with us, trooped along on camping trips, swam with the kids in shallow water, loved playing mini-Frisbee and fetch at picnics and cookouts, etc. etc. (I shake my head at how fat and slack so many pug owners let their dogs get--these are supposed to be muscly little dogs, people!--and to my surprise in China it was even worse; most of the pugs I saw there were downright obese.) Several people we've known with Boxers take them for regular light jogs and on long hikes in the country, even in very hot and humid weather, and they seem to do just fine. It just depends on your lifestyle and what activities you expect to share with your dog--it's a balance thing, and you'll have to keep aware that high temps and high speed really wear on them, but at the same time most of the short-muzzled/bully breeds are tenacious, tough-minded dogs who can take a challenge as well as put up one.

 

[Liesje]

My friend got this Corgi - well we all have German Shepherds, but she needed a "height dog" for flyball competition (all the dogs on the team jump the jump height of the shortest dog) so she got a Corgi too - and it actually has a deeper bark than Pan, my 11 month old German Shepherd, lol. I'm really picky about dogs and I like a certain coat, ear set, overall "look" so to me the Corgi is about as close to a German Shepherd I can get in that size. That is probably why I'll never move away from German Shepherds - I need a normal jaw/muzzle (for biting and breathing), I prefer standing ears that I don't have to crop, I like a natural tail, a medium sized dog, and a "stock" (short) double coat. For temperament I prefer medium-high prey and defense drive, high fighting drive with a medium threshold across the board. I prefer raw aggression over the terrier tenacity or the reactive defense of many of the other larger German breeds (Rotts, Dobes, Boxer, etc). The other breeds that sometimes fit that description I just don't like (Giant Schnauzer, Bouvier, some Belgian and Dutch working dogs). Of the German breeds besides the GSD the Boxer is my fave but again, with that mouth the biting isn't what I would like to have for protection and they do their little hoppy Boxer thing when doing the guard/hold&bark which is generally frowned on as it wastes energy (not that it's their fault, the breed test was design to showcase a different breed). I love how Rottweilers track, they can be amazing trackers, but overall don't really like them, at least not the ones I'm seeing enough to go out and get one. Having a personal protection dog that will tear a man's arm through a padded bitesuit one day and then sit in a classroom and be manhandled by second graders the next day, there's a very small dot on the dog spectrum that I can afford (from a liability standpoint) to land!

 

[financeguy]

Apartment dogs?

Americans are weird.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Dogs are wonderful. I really don't think I'm the same person I was when I had my last dog, I think it has changed me in a negative way. I just feel diminished somehow. Unfortunately life circumstances don't allow me to have one. It's so tough when they get old and have all the physical problems that they do, but that goes along with having any pet.

I had two Border Collies and they are genius dogs, and both of mine were also the most sensitive dogs and the best companions anyone could ask for.

I aspire to be the person my dog thinks I am

 

[Jive Turkey]

Anyway, as to the actual article....I find it difficult to respond. Making such sweeping claims about dog training and how dogs learn in one short, mainstream .com type article is almost not worth responding to. The first thing that stood out to me was that it was written by a biologist, not someone with advanced degrees in applied animal behavior (which is more like psychology). Second, he is writing off entire quadrants of operant conditioning based on extreme, outdated examples. Third, what a lot of these people who like to make sweeping generalizations about dog training seem to overlook is the vast differences in breed and breed type with regard to a dog's drives, threshold, recovery, things that make up temperament. When you study how a German Shepherd is trained vs. a Pug you might as well be comparing two different species. Also, I always have to wonder if someone like this has, you know, actually trained any dogs? Not just the sit, stay, don't counter surf but trained to the level of competition and titling that takes years to develop a working relationship with the dog (also something largely ignored....the nature of the relationship between dog and handler and how that motivates the dog's training and work). You'd be surprised at how many people haven't. Studying the history of dog training and actually training dogs on a daily basis leads to very different conclusions.

I think you might be overlooking the fact that the biologist didn't write this article. It's an article written by someone else about his book. I don't think it's fair to write him off either without reading any of his book. Just sayin'

 

[Irvine511]

Apartment dogs?

Americans are weird.

the two of us live in 750 square feet. i can't see subjecting a big dog that needs to run to 10th story jail.

 

[Liesje]

I think you might be overlooking the fact that the biologist didn't write this article. It's an article written by someone else about his book. I don't think it's fair to write him off either without reading any of his book. Just sayin'

There hundreds of so-called dog behavior/dog training experts and most of them have written books. Heck I already have enough articles I could slap them into a book if I felt like it. If this book is even half like the article I doubt I'll read it. Unless the article is inaccurate, I don't think that's unfair of me either. The few points touched on in the article are plenty enough for me. In fact I'd written it off completely just based on the comments regarding forced retrieves. But, if one has no idea what that is, how, or why it is done, it's easy to overlook or not understand why that would matter to someone that actually trains dogs. I'm quite familiar with the movement and ideas expressed in the article/book and I just don't agree with most of them.

If a person only reads one book about dog behavior or dog training in their lifetime it should be "Don't Shoot the Dog" by Karen Pryor.

 

[Liesje]

the two of us live in 750 square feet. i can't see subjecting a big dog that needs to run to 10th story jail.

I have a friend that has two (working line) German Shepherds in an apartment on the 18th? floor. But yeah, I couldn't do it either!

 

[Jive Turkey]

I'd also say that the author doesn't seem to be disputing whether or not operant conditioning works, but that it's fair to subject another creature to pain in order for it to obey commands. A child could be trained in the same way, but I doubt any sane person would recommend it as a reasonable method of training

 

[Jive Turkey]

*unfair

 

[maycocksean]

Apartment dogs?

Americans are weird.

We have a dog. ANd we live in an apartment.

the two of us live in 750 square feet. i can't see subjecting a big dog that needs to run to 10th story jail.

Our dog is about 55 lbs and and our apartment is just over 1000 square feet. Is it too small?

 

[Liesje]

I'd also say that the author doesn't seem to be disputing whether or not operant conditioning works, but that it's fair to subject another creature to pain in order for it to obey commands. A child could be trained in the same way, but I doubt any sane person would recommend it as a reasonable method of training

If you get into discussions on dog training it can be as volatile as discussions on politics. It's like asking a communist to read the Anarchist's Cookbook. Just like a lot of other "debates", one side is often trying to justify their methods by completely misunderstanding the other. It is not simple pain vs. reward, and no two quadrants of operant conditioning are mutually exclusive. Also there is a huge difference in training the common household pet dog how to sit, stay, lie down, be quiet, etc than training a multi-generational purpose bred dog for a high level of work. This is more comparable to conditioning and training a pro athlete, not getting a child potty trained or teaching a child not to whine. The statement about the retrieve leads me to believe the author/biologist whose life's work is studying dogs hasn't really read and understood the Koehler retrieve let alone have any experience with it. I have done Koehler retrieve, "pure positive" freeshaped retrieve, prey based retrieve....you name it. And I don't really care for one over the other but whatever most efficiently gets through to the dog standing in front of me. Repeatedly subjecting a dog to pain has no place in dog training not because it is pain but because a good dog trainer knows that regardless of the methods and tools used, the goal is clear, concise, and consistent communication and resorting to inflicting pain means that there is a breakdown in communication. Ideally you show/lure/freeshape/escape train a dog to do a behavior 2-3 times and the dog understands what you want.

 

[Irvine511]

Our dog is about 55 lbs and and our apartment is just over 1000 square feet. Is it too small?

i'm not the dog expert that Lies is, but i think it more has to do with breed rather than just size -- i.e., bulldogs can easily weigh 50lbs but they are naturally pretty lazy and make great apartment dogs.

 

[Liesje]

Yeah definitely depends on need. Coke is very large, not very heavy, but larger than all of my German shepherds. He is the laziest dog though. He gets walked maybe once a week. He's perfectly content to stay inside all day and sleep.

Honestly my shepherds would be fine in an apartment because even with the house (1300 sq feet) they can't really release energy. And walks are not "exercise" for them, more like a warmup. It's more important for me to have a yard, even a tiny one, so they can chase each other around and we have a place to train. Their minds and bodies are exercised with training and work.

The temperament doesn't always correspond with size. The ability to turn on/off and settle in a house is actually an element of nerve. Pan is a high drive dog, but he has very sound nerve, so he is perfectly capable of lying still in the house or being crated for an extended period without throwing a fit. Nikon has less drive, but is a bit more unsettled in the house (though still well behaved, but it took him about 2 years to be what I'd consider a nice house pet). Many people misinterpret hyperactivity as high drive, or assume that a high drive dog is going to be too hyper indoors (and must be kenneled, or can only be owned by someone with acres of land).

 

[yolland]

Coke is very large, not very heavy, but larger than all of my German shepherds. He is the laziest dog though. He gets walked maybe once a week. He's perfectly content to stay inside all day and sleep.

All but one of our family's collies when I was growing up were like this too. Whereas Falstaff got destructive if he didn't get enough exercise to tucker him out daily, at least for his first 5-7 years. Age also seems to make a more dramatic difference with some breeds?, I mean any dog has more energy in youth but it seems like with some breeds the difference between (hyper) young dogs and (mellowed) middle-aged ones is a lot more dramatic than in others.

 

[Liesje]

I think age matters but it is still individual. Coke has been this way since we got him when he was 1. Some German Shepherds will slow down but often that is more due to health problems, like if they didn't have arthritis or spondylosis or DM, they'd still very be active. I don't have much experience with Pugs but our neighbor's Pug was a holy terror! That thing could run! Every collie I've ever met/known about has been on the super laid back, lower energy, and lower drive end of the spectrum. I know someone who has used Collies as service dogs but after frustrations with wash-outs and health problems she recently switched to German shepherds (kind of ironic, switching to shepherds for health).

Coke also doesn't like heat and with his coat I don't blame him. I just spent an hour with a scissors trimming him down. He goes out to eat and potty and begs to come right back in. If he goes for a walk, a mile is plenty sufficient. Sometimes I feel bad like I'm not doing enough with him but when we try to do more he honestly doesn't enjoy it. He seems most content just being a house dog and rough-housing with Pan for a while each evening.

In my working/competition dogs I prefer more middle of the road as far as GSDs go. I like a dog with the genetics for the drive I want but the nerve to cut the crap in the house. I don't want dogs that have to be kenneled. I like having dogs that don't need any motivation in order to go out and work but turn it off when we're done.

 

[financeguy]

We have a dog. ANd we live in an apartment.



Our dog is about 55 lbs and and our apartment is just over 1000 square feet. Is it too small?

Apologies for that outburst, I am probably once again forgetting about cultural differences. Apartment complexes here pretty much don't allow dogs full stop, although I don't see the problem with it once the dog is exercised regularly and there are parks nearby.

 

[Irvine511]

Apologies for that outburst, I am probably once again forgetting about cultural differences. Apartment complexes here pretty much don't allow dogs full stop, although I don't see the problem with it once the dog is exercised regularly and there are parks nearby.

i thought it was funny, no need to apologize.

my apartment complex doesn't allow dogs full stop either.

 

[Jive Turkey]

Repeatedly subjecting a dog to pain has no place in dog training not because it is pain but because a good dog trainer knows that regardless of the methods and tools used, the goal is clear, concise, and consistent communication and resorting to inflicting pain means that there is a breakdown in communication. Ideally you show/lure/freeshape/escape train a dog to do a behavior 2-3 times and the dog understands what you want.

It seems the author is maybe arguing against a non issue or at the very least, arguing against outdated practices?

 

[Liesje]

But they aren't outdated. I know a guy who travels the country getting paid $500 per dog to train a Koehler based retrieve over a three day seminar and it sells out. My puppy will probably be trained with this method when he is ready (Nikon was trained very differently). The problem is that those who keep insisting they are outdated, cruel, inhumane, etc don't have a thorough understanding of what's actually going on and why, nor do they offer a sufficient alternative.

 

[trojanchick99]

I'd love to have a Bull Terrier again, but I'm not home enough. I keep trying to talk my Mom into getting one, but she insists she needs a protection dog and well Bullies while intimidating to look at don't have that protective streak her German Shepherd has.

I completely agree that training needs to be tailored to the breed and purpose.

 

[Liesje]

I think Bullies do the job! In fact, most times all you need is just *a* dog and you are protected. Ironically, if I'm walking dogs in public the one that people want to pet and gush over is Nikon, who has all the protection training, but are more afraid of Coke who doesn't know a stranger. Nikon is good with people, and if I say no it's usually because I don't feel like stopping. Luckily I've never had to call on my dog in a real life scenario, though all he needs is a whispered command to "watch him" and he alerts (hits the end of the leash barking). I have seen people I'd rather not meet cross the street when I have my dog. Usually it is obedience, not aggression, that scares people. If I command the dog to do a really formal heel while walking down a public sidewalk, people wonder what else the dog can do... A true personal protection dog is a LOT of work, involves years of training. Nikon is not and never will be a true "PPD" because there are a few things a PPD does that I don't train. For example, I never train my dogs to bite a passive person on command. I *only* train my dogs how to respond to an actual threat. A PPD is trained such that if a person were sitting in a chair 100 feet away facing the other direction, the dog could be commanded to bite. I don't need that level and don't see the use for it. I do train my dogs to alert to a passive person (again, that means they go out to the end of their leash barking and showing aggression) because there might be a person that I know is a threat to us but might not be acting threatening. My dog is only trained and allowed to bite a threat, and I'm not training the dog TO bite because that is something that is either in the dog or not, I'm just channeling the drive and aggression and working the control. For example right now Nikon is learning to bite armpits and collar bones. He will bite the threat but I want him to target specific areas that are easy, universal targets and will best bring someone down without really injuring them. Most dogs of any breed or training serve as a visual deterrent level of protection. A true protection dog doesn't just happen because of breed or looks, there's a lot of training and testing the dog's level of aggression and courage to make sure unfair expectations are not being placed on the dog. Most times dogs react and bite it is really out of fear. In training we setup every scenario so that the dog is going to win and we let the dog do what he does naturally but frame it in a way that builds confidence rather than pressuring a fight or flight response. Without this, even a great German Shepherd might end up cowering if a real threat enters the home and gets physical with the dog or owner. That is something that should be worked out in training sooner rather than later!