Why-Because I'm A Black Man In America?

[Jive Turkey]

God, even in the transcripts Larry King is cutting off his guest's answers and trying to talk while they are. The man needs to learn to let people speak

 

[Jive Turkey]

I'm going to have to agree with Deep on this one. If I were in Gate's position and was acting the same way, theres no way I wouldnt have been arrested too. It seems silly to keep referring to race in this case

 

[Bluer White]

I don't see anything constructive coming out of Crowley and Skip Gates sitting down together.

Maybe a snapshot of a fake handshake, with the prez in the background, tipping back a Bud?

 

[yolland]

I am not a big fan of mouthing off to Police... concept
what is the point, how can they do their job without the support of the public?

No one in here, and very few Americans period, are actually 'fans' of that, deep. Like you and diamond, I also was taught by my parents to always show respect, courtesy and, yes, deference to the police, even if I felt they were being hostile or unfair. But maybe with a different inflection, because my parents weren't just thinking in terms of raising well-mannered, law-abiding children; they were also thinking of all the times in the 60s when my father and various friends and associates were arrested and hauled down to the station and slapped around for the 'crime' of registering black voters. They still didn't trust the local police any further than they could throw them, which is to say, their philosophy was: Never trust them to honor your due constitutional rights, even though that's supposedly precisely their job. If they still felt that way in the 70s and 80s when my siblings and I were little, imagine how people who're still having the experience of being stopped or pulled over for 'walking/driving while black' today may often feel towards the police. Is that always a reasonable distrust (and therefore resentment) to have informing your every encounter with the police, of course not, but these aren't things our brains can always be relied on to wisely assess in the moment.

Not everyone arrested is guilty of any thing. After the arrest they are arraigned and it is determined if they will be charged with a crime

Arrests generally stay on your record. Not a problem for Gates, but for many, many others it is.

If defference has to be given to one side, right now I have to go with the Police.

It's not about deference, it's about basic constitutional rights and whether they were violated. Forget about race for a minute, forget about class, forget who's smarter or better-liked by their peers or better-behaved: was this 'disorderly conduct' arrest legally justified, would that have held up in court?

 

[diamond]

I am not saying it will fail.






hint:
could the teachable moment be to not blow things out of porportion and blame parties for actions done by others in the past ?

ding
ding
ding..

we have a winner.



but the word is "proportion".

 

[Jive Turkey]

It's not about deference, it's about basic constitutional rights and whether they were violated. Forget about race for a minute, forget about class, forget who's smarter or better-liked by their peers or better-behaved: was this 'disorderly conduct' arrest legally justified, would that have held up in court?

it happens all the time. I'm sure there are loop holes in the written law that make it perfectly legal and justified to arrest for disorderly conduct situations like this. Whether or not it holds up in court is irrelevant... I remember a few years back a friend and I got kicked out of a bar for doing absolutely nothing (I'm being honest). I guess the bouncers mistook us for someone else and they came out of nowhere and forcefully tossed us out the back door. There were a few cops patrolling the area, so we made a complaint. Their reply? "go stand on the other side of the road and dont come back". We still had friends in the bar that we were going home with and thought it was completely ridiculous to not allow us on a certain side of the street. So after a few minutes as the bar was starting to empty, we crossed the street to find our friends only to have the cops start yelling at us. My friend's dad was head of one of the departments in our area, so he asked the officer for his name so he could file a formal complaint. The two cops then tackled him to the ground, cuffed him and arrested him for "being drunk in public". It was complete bullshit. to top it all off, all they did was throw him in the cruiser, drive around the back of the bar and let him out again... I think it was all because we were white men in Canada

 

[diamond]

Another thing, to the "we weren't there so we really don't know what happened crowd".

Since we weren't there, how do we know that other than becoming verbally hostile to Crowely that Gates didn't get in his face and thereby force the issue?

Also it is an officer's duty to enforce the law, not be a lawyer and interpret if the charge is going to stick or not. Gates dared Crowely to enforce the law (by his actions) and Crowely did.

<>

 

[yolland]

It was complete bullshit.

And since it involved someone you felt some personal connection to, you recognized that, and years later you're still backing your friend up.

 

[Jive Turkey]

And since it involved someone you felt some personal connection to, you recognized that, and years later you're still backing your friend up.

It definitely was bullshit. All I'm saying is that for it to be so prevalent, I'm sure it must be written somewhere that its not unlawful. there are certain laws that seem to just be blanket laws that can apply to many situations in the police officer's favour.

 

[Bluer White]

Everything I've read is that disorderly conduct is a 'fuzzy' law and mostly at the discretion of the officer on the scene.

That certainly doesn't mean a charge will stick. It also doesn't mean it's a violation of constitutional rights.

 

[deep]

No one in here, and very few Americans period, are actually 'fans' of that, deep. Like you and diamond, I also was taught by my parents to always show respect, courtesy and, yes, deference to the police, even if I felt they were being hostile or unfair. But maybe with a different inflection, because my parents weren't just thinking in terms of raising well-mannered, law-abiding children; they were also thinking of all the times in the 60s when my father and various friends and associates were arrested and hauled down to the station and slapped around for the 'crime' of registering black voters. They still didn't trust the local police any further than they could throw them, which is to say, their philosophy was: Never trust them to honor your due constitutional rights, even though that's supposedly precisely their job. If they still felt that way in the 70s and 80s when my siblings and I were little, imagine how people who're still having the experience of being stopped or pulled over for 'walking/driving while black' today may often feel towards the police. Is that always a reasonable distrust (and therefore resentment) to have informing your every encounter with the police, of course not, but these aren't things our brains can always be relied on to wisely assess in the moment.

I think the civil Rights work your parents did is commendable

I know there were and are still bad police when it comes to 'race issues'.

I am one that supports affirmative action, I believe it is the best way to lessen these 'race problems' that still exist today.

Arrests generally stay on your record. Not a problem for Gates, but for many, many others it is.

How many times have you been arrested?

It's not about deference, it's about basic constitutional rights and whether they were violated. Forget about race for a minute, forget about class, forget who's smarter or better-liked by their peers or better-behaved: was this 'disorderly conduct' arrest legally justified, would that have held up in court?

I do think that when an officer is following up on a reported potential crime and doing the field work by asking questions a reasonable person would not mouth off. How could the police do their work if at every call they were met by someone mouthing off?



by including the story about the disgusting things your parents put up helping people register to vote,
are you wanting to make a parallel with this officer following up on a possible break in. I don't see the connection.

 

[Bluer White]

It's not about deference, it's about basic constitutional rights and whether they were violated. Forget about race for a minute, forget about class, forget who's smarter or better-liked by their peers or better-behaved: was this 'disorderly conduct' arrest legally justified, would that have held up in court?

If the professor has a constitutional beef, he should bring a lawsuit.

If not, he should bring a beer.

 

[deep]

it happens all the time. I'm sure there are loop holes in the written law that make it perfectly legal and justified to arrest for disorderly conduct situations like this. Whether or not it holds up in court is irrelevant... I remember a few years back a friend and I got kicked out of a bar for doing absolutely nothing (I'm being honest). I guess the bouncers mistook us for someone else and they came out of nowhere and forcefully tossed us out the back door. There were a few cops patrolling the area, so we made a complaint. Their reply? "go stand on the other side of the road and dont come back". We still had friends in the bar that we were going home with and thought it was completely ridiculous to not allow us on a certain side of the street. So after a few minutes as the bar was starting to empty, we crossed the street to find our friends only to have the cops start yelling at us. My friend's dad was head of one of the departments in our area, so he asked the officer for his name so he could file a formal complaint. The two cops then tackled him to the ground, cuffed him and arrested him for "being drunk in public". It was complete bullshit. to top it all off, all they did was throw him in the cruiser, drive around the back of the bar and let him out again... I think it was all because we were white men in Canada

I have my stories, too.

I have a pretty good one at the airport, what I went through when I went to bury my father.

but your story and my stories don't really add up to much
accept to give us a little 'insight'
and if these things happened to us much more often
and if the person doing them, implied by what they said that our race was the reason we were being singled out.

I can empathise with people of color that are hassled, it happens, probably more than most of us 'white folks' realize.


all that being said, this incident is not a clear cut case at all, as a matter of fact, I have not read or seen anything about race from law enforcement towards Mr Gates.

during this last election cycle some old Politician said. "I don't want that boy's finger on the trigger to the bomb" Referring to Obama as a boy was enough to suggest this person had a problem with race issues.

the officer has been around, he has a history and a record. if he had 'race issues' I think we would have heard about it, I am sure there has be some serious digging into his past by now.

 

[VintagePunk]

Two things. First, you didn't answer yolland's questions, and I'm genuinely curious to read what you think:

It's not about deference, it's about basic constitutional rights and whether they were violated. Forget about race for a minute, forget about class, forget who's smarter or better-liked by their peers or better-behaved: was this 'disorderly conduct' arrest legally justified, would that have held up in court?

all that being said, this incident is not a clear cut case at all, as a matter of fact, I have not read or seen anything about race from law enforcement towards Mr Gates.

...

the officer has been around, he has a history and a record. if he had 'race issues' I think we would have heard about it, I am sure there has be some serious digging into his past by now.

Second, how do you attribute the discrepancy between what the officer wrote in his report, and what we heard in the 911 call, given that the caller had no reason to fabricate or change her story, but that the officer certainly did?

 

[deep]

Two things. First, you didn't answer yolland's questions, and I'm genuinely curious to read what you think:






Second, how do you attribute the discrepancy between what the officer wrote in his report, and what we heard in the 911 call, given that the caller had no reason to fabricate or change her story, but that the officer certainly did?

would the arrest have held up in court?

who knows,
I think many arrest do not hold up
I have been arrested, only to have the charges dropped

and you should have heard me curse the fuckin' cops up and down.

I don't see how this is a case of 'false arrest'


please tell me how heavy the discrepancy is?

 

[Jive Turkey]

I have my stories, too.

I have a pretty good one at the airport, what I went through when I went to bury my father.

but your story and my stories don't really add up to much
accept to give us a little 'insight'
and if these things happened to us much more often
and if the person doing them, implied by what they said that our race was the reason we were being singled out.

I can empathise with people of color that are hassled, it happens, probably more than most of us 'white folks' realize.


all that being said, this incident is not a clear cut case at all, as a matter of fact, I have not read or seen anything about race from law enforcement towards Mr Gates.

during this last election cycle some old Politician said. "I don't want that boy's finger on the trigger to the bomb" Referring to Obama as a boy was enough to suggest this person had a problem with race issues.

the officer has been around, he has a history and a record. if he had 'race issues' I think we would have heard about it, I am sure there has be some serious digging into his past by now.

I wasnt telling my story as a 'woe is me, feel my pain' sort of thing. Just that disorderly conduct arrests happen to people who mouth off all the time. Whether it happens more to blacks than to whites is irrelevant in this case. My point was just that its more than likely not unlawful given the amount of times it happens. the point isnt for anything to hold up in court, but rather to diffuse the situation. I would think the vast majority of these charges are dismissed anyway unless there are other charges attached to it. In this case I think a persecution complex might have as much to do with it as officer misconduct

 

[VintagePunk]

would the arrest have held up in court?

who knows,
I think many arrest do not hold up
I have been arrested, only to have the charges dropped

and you should have heard me curse the fuckin' cops up and down.

I don't see how this is a case of 'false arrest'


please tell me how heavy the discrepancy is?

I believe that yolland (I think it was her) has already cited in this thread at least two cases upheld by a higher court where simply yelling and expressing one's self verbally to a police officer, no matter how rudely, is not illegal in the state of Massachusetts. This being the case, I believe the answer is that no, it wasn't a legally justified arrest, and no, it wouldn't have held up in court. Therefore, he was wrongly arrested.

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but in case you're not, the discrepancy is this - the woman who called 911 did so at the behest of another neighbour - she was asked to call, simply because she had a cell phone. She repeatedly told the 911 operator that it may be nothing. When the operator asked her the race of the men, she said that one man she wasn't able to tell at all, and the second man, she "think might be Hispanic." She also stated that the two men had luggage.

In the police report, the officer states that he was told by the caller it was "two black men with backpacks," backpacks of course implying something considerably shiftier than luggage. The thing is though, Gates was the first to enter the house, and he didn't come out of the house again until after the officer arrived. It was suggested that perhaps the officer got this conflicting information from the woman face to face, after he arrived on the scene, but if she didn't see Gates well enough to identify his race in the first place, and he didn't come out of the house until after the officer arrived, how would she have learned in the meantime since the 911 call that he was black?

I'm not sure if you've heard the 911 call or read the published police report, but from the call, it's fairly apparent that the woman seemed to think that she was calling about a non-event, she was only calling because a neighbour requested that she call. As I said in another post, I just don't see where she would have motivation to lie, whereas I can see how the officer would have motivation to fudge the details in his report, to paint himself in a better light, to make it seem like the arrest was justified.

That's just my take. And for the record, I don't think there's any way of telling for sure that the officer's actions were racially motivated. I do think though that rather than back off from the situation, he was going to show the angry man who was boss. If anything, I think it's a case of "contempt of cop," as others have said. And I also think that if he wasn't fully truthful in his report, then it's very possible that he's exaggerated other details as well. As for Gates, he's going to view the situation through the lens of his experience, so I think it's understandable that he believed, at least initially, while emotions ran high, that it was racially motivated.


eta - here's the call:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6_8wePZ6FA&feature=fvsr

Here's a copy of the police report: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0723092gates1.html

 

[yolland]

^ It was Mr. V and MrsS who posted info about earlier MA cases involving mouthing off to police.

How many times have you been arrested?

I don't think I ever have. I was detained, by which I mean confined for several hours in some sort of cell with two men I didn't know and all my baggage, contents of pockets, and documentation taken away, during the incident with customs police I referred to earlier. But if I was actually under arrest, they didn't say so. Part of what disturbed me about it was that they never at any point told me what was wrong or why they were confining me, even though I asked repeatedly.

I do think that when an officer is following up on a reported potential crime and doing the field work by asking questions a reasonable person would not mouth off.

Agreed. I never said such behavior was 'reasonable,' and I'm not looking to pin some Speakin' Truth To Power! medal on Gates.

by including the story about the disgusting things your parents put up helping people registered to vote,
are you wanting to make a parallel with this officer following up on a possible break in.

No. I was pointing out that there's often a difference between what we've been raised to see as 'unreasonable,' 'dishonorable,' 'disrespectful,' etc. behavior, and what the limitations on our First Amendment rights--imminent lawless action, obscenity, 'fighting words', defamation--actually except from protection (particularly when you're on your own property). I was saying, I don't know about you, but I got the message pretty clearly from my parents that part of the reason for their stress on "Never mouth off to the police" was "...because you can't count on them to respect your rights" -- as opposed to "...because if you do mouth off, then you deserve whatever you get," which unfortunately seems to be the hair-trigger reaction a lot of Americans have had to this case.

 

[VintagePunk]

^ It was Mr. V and MrsS who posted info about earlier MA cases involving mouthing off to police.

Thanks. I was too lazy to look back. I guess I just assume that one of your roles while floating above the fray is to provide us with links to relevant supporting information, lol.

 

[diamond]

I think Vintage Punk dated a corrupt cop at one time and because of this she profiles all cops.

<>

 

[deep]

^ It was Mr. V and MrsS who posted info about earlier MA cases involving mouthing off to police.


I don't think I ever have. I was detained, by which I mean confined for several hours in some sort of cell with two men I didn't know and all my baggage, contents of pockets, and documentation taken away, during the incident with customs police I referred to earlier. But if I was actually under arrest, they didn't say so. Part of what disturbed me about it was that they never at any point told me what was wrong or why they were confining me, even though I asked repeatedly.

Agreed. I never said such behavior was 'reasonable,' and I'm not looking to pin some Speakin' Truth To Power! medal on Gates.

No. I was pointing out that there's often a difference between what we've been raised to see as 'unreasonable,' 'dishonorable,' 'disrespectful,' etc. behavior, and what the limitations on our First Amendment rights--imminent lawless action, obscenity, 'fighting words', defamation--actually except from protection (particularly when you're on your own property). I was saying, I don't know about you, but I got the message pretty clearly from my parents that part of the reason for their stress on "Never mouth off to the police" was "...because you can't count on them to respect your rights" -- as opposed to "...because if you do mouth off, then you deserve whatever you get," which unfortunately seems to be the hair-trigger reaction a lot of Americans have had to this case.

I went through hell at the airport once

it was when I went to bury my father in 2002

I was carrying the book Satanic Verses when I checked in.

I put the book in my carry on, but they still took me aside and went though everything and ask me my reason for flying, I may have had a dazed look on my face, too.


I have been arrested more than once. It is the worse. Having all your personal property taken, your shoes etc. They give you one thin blanket and turn the AC up. The last time was over 20+ years ago.
Sitting in jail gives one time to think. I learned not to cross certain lines.

I have been questioned for breaking into my own property. I understood that climbing in a second story window looked suspicious. I did not mouth off because it was my property. I thanked the officer for detaining me and verifying I was the owner.

I have no way of knowing if a cop is someone I can not count on to respect my rights or someone that deserves my respect

I know they are a person with a gun and the power to arrest,
why push it?

 

[VintagePunk]

I think Vintage Punk dated a corrupt cop at one time and because of this she profiles all cops.

<>

Hardly. I'm just realistic enough to know that in some cases, power and authority can corrupt, or if you want to take a more innocuous view, even those of us who generally do our jobs well can have lapses in judgment and make poor decisions.

Also, Gates didn't do anything illegal, and it's very likely that the officer either lied, or at best, exaggerated his report. Further, Gates wasn't a threat to anyone that day. He's an older man who requires a cane to walk, and he was in his own home. In this situation, the officer had all the power. He could have walked away, but instead he chose to use his power to prove a point. He just happened to do it with a high profile person this time. The same thing happens to a lot of other people all the time, but no one hears about it.

But think that you want, you always do.

 

[maycocksean]

I don't think the police officer was racially motivated. I do understand why Gates might have felt otherwise.

I do think Gates got under the officer's skin, which is why he was arrested.

That was wrong.

Race is neither here nor there in this issue (other than the completely understandable sense Gates may have had that his race had something to do with the way he was being treated)--the issue is that Gates AND the officer overreacted. However, the responsiblitly rests on the person with the power to take the high road. I'm sure the officer was and is a fine person and good at his job, but on that day he showed poor judgement.

 

[maycocksean]

in regards to what diamond said, and adding some of my personal experience:

my demographics are something like 80% black.

sometimes i have to go check people's id badges at the airport (they are all black) most of them get pissy when i ask them for it, and get REAL pissy when i challenge them about being in an area they arent supposed to be.

whenever a black co-worker challenges them they dont say shit or joke around about it, but when i do (being a white boy not from the island) i guess it's like i shouldnt be asking them anything.

but, i dont really care either way. it doesnt bother me one bit. they dont like me asking, tough shit

Your post pretty much explains to me why "most of them get pissy." If that's the kind of attitude you exude in your work, yeah, a lot of people will get pissy.

But as you, said, it doesn't bother you one bit so . . .

 

[diamond]

Hardly. I'm just realistic enough to know that in some cases, power and authority can corrupt, or if you want to take a more innocuous view, even those of us who generally do our jobs well can have lapses in judgment and make poor decisions.

Also, Gates didn't do anything illegal, .

You don't know that for certain, because you weren't there.
.

Gates got off because his celebrity-plain and simple.

This cop was brave enough to enforce the law when a man broke it, the same way the cop who arrested Mel Gibson did, and it doesn't matter that he wasn't prosecuted-that has nothing to do with the issue that Gates created and the one that the President tried to exploit.

I also think Gates will probably be more respectful to police in the future.


Good job Crowely.
<>

 

[VintagePunk]

You don't know that for certain, because you weren't there.
.


<>

I read the published police report. Being verbally rude and angry toward a police officer is not illegal in Mass. The officer didn't mention any other behaviour that would be illegal in his report.

 

[deep]

I certainly don't see Gates as someone that was deserving of being arrested. I see him as someone that put himself in a situation where he could be arrested.

I also think it is reasonable that the charges were dropped. I believe there is a good chance that anyone that was arrested at their home for disorderly conduct may have had the charges dropped once they paid the bail.

Yes it could have gone either way.
Gates could have been agitated and given the police a hard time, they could have taken the verbal abuse and drove away.

I give deference to the police because he was required to act, the judgment he used can be questioned, but can not be labeled a blatant abuse of his authority.

Because of this incident, perhaps next time he will use a little more discretion in deciding when to arrest someone.

 

[U2DMfan]

You don't know that for certain, because you weren't there.
.

<>

Were you there?

Face it the professor is a angry black man that has issues with whitey, got out of control and was arrested for it.
<>

That's just your 'deductive reasoning'? Fair enough.

Then why can't VP do the same?

Are you holding people to a different standard than you hold yourself?

I don't think anyone here could be "certain" without being there.
Sort of goes without saying, doesn't it?

 

[BVS]

You don't know that for certain, because you weren't there.
.

So now you're using this argument?

This cop was brave enough to enforce the law when a man broke it,

No law was broken, when will you ever understand this?

the same way the cop who arrested Mel Gibson did,

Yeah for suspicion of drunk driving

 

[bigjohn2441]

Your post pretty much explains to me why "most of them get pissy." If that's the kind of attitude you exude in your work, yeah, a lot of people will get pissy.

But as you, said, it doesn't bother you one bit so . . .

i knew i would be the one that was wrong

where in my post did i say i had an attitude? i guess my polite "may i see your id badge please?" is too outrageous. i dont feel one way or another about it, just saying thats the way it is.