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Old 08-02-2009, 08:19 PM   #271
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England is approaching a police state in my opinion, however I do not live there. Ireland is probably not quite so bad, yet.
I knew you were over the pond.



I'm ok if they investigate citizens in England or Ireland for breaking into their own homes, however I think as a citizen you should cooperate with the Bobby or officer to complete his or her investigation.
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Old 08-02-2009, 08:22 PM   #272
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I'm ok if they investigate citizens in England for breaking into their own homes, however I think as a citizen you should cooperate with the Bobby to complete his investigation.<>
So, you're a statist, in other words. You agree with intrusive powers for state agencies. Some call that socialism.
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Old 08-02-2009, 08:24 PM   #273
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Now we are approaching the kernel of the matter.
Now? What exactly did you think the argument which anitram, Diemen, BVS, Sean, VintagePunk and myself were making against the arrest was?
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Old 08-02-2009, 08:26 PM   #274
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Now? What exactly did you think the argument which anitram, Diemen, BVS, Sean, VintagePunk and myself were making against the arrest was?
Well, I probably missed that, I really did not read much of the thread.
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Old 08-02-2009, 08:31 PM   #275
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The 'teachable moment' for the officer would be that it's A) unprofessional and B) almost certainly unconstitutional as well to arrest someone merely for mouthing off at you. It doesn't mean that he's a "problem officer" in general; each situation is unique, and there may've been something about this one which caused him to let himself go over the edge in a way that's extremely unlikely for him to repeat.
Well, indeed. Will the officer be subject to disciplinary action with regard to this?
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Old 08-02-2009, 08:36 PM   #276
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So, you're a statist, in other words. You agree with intrusive powers for state agencies. Some call that socialism.
In the USA we have "block watches" where neighbors watch out for each other's homes and protect their private property, we have no problem with it, it's normal. That's all that was going on here.

A good neighbor called the police when it looked like two intruders where trying to unlawfully enter.

Crowley was doing his job by doing what a good neighbor requested. In America most citizens are about law and order and let police investigate, protect and serve. We're ok with it, we also cooperate with police officers and their investigations calmly until they're over with and thank them, even if were intially misled-regardless of the officer's color. We *still* even thank them for their service-even if they were mistaken. A case like this is usually a 5 min. procedure and unfortunately Gates couldn't do it-due to psychological issues or a persecution complex of some sort it appears.

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Old 08-02-2009, 08:52 PM   #277
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In the USA we have "block watches" where neighbors watch out for each other's homes and protect their private property, we have no problem with it, it's normal. That's all that was going on here.

A good neighbor called the police when it looked like two intruders where trying to unlawfully enter.
That's fine. I've no issue with that.

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Crowley was doing his job by doing what a good neighbor requested. In America most citizens are about law and order and let police investigate, protect and serve. We're ok with it, we also cooperate with police officers and their investigations calmly until they're over with and thank them, even if were intially misled-regardless of the officer's color. We *still* even thank them for their service-even if they were mistaken. A case like this is usually a 5 min. procedure and unfortunately Gates couldn't do it-due to psychological issues or a persecution complex of some sort it appears.

<>
I see. The citizenry is happy with intrusive state powers, e.g, the power to arrest someone for the offence of, as you aptly put it, 'being a jerk'. In that case, I suppose it gets what it deserves.

I am assuming the American police are paid for their services? I am assuming that they are not performing a charitable service for the good of their hearts. I am assuming their pay comes from the taxpayers' pocket? In that case, why on earth should the citizenry meekly grovel before its servant? Should the citizen continue to grovel when the servant is mistaken or possibly inept, as appears to have been the case here. You seem to think he should. I don't.

Have you got a source for the assertion that Gates has psychological issues?
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Old 08-02-2009, 09:08 PM   #278
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Will the officer be subject to disciplinary action with regard to this?
His department's public statements have suggested 100% support for how he handled the incident. It's possible that this doesn't fully reflect what was said or done behind the scenes, but there's no reason to assume it doesn't. 'Disorderly conduct' charges for mouthing off to police are fairly common in the US, and while they're often dropped, that does the police no harm, and the temptation to (ab)use those statutes in this way is graspable enough. Other than its involvement of a relatively famous individual, the only thing that makes this particular instance stand out is the especially eyebrow-raising stretch of treating Gates' few seconds of yelling at the departing police from his front porch as a threat to 'public' order requiring intervention.
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Old 08-02-2009, 09:38 PM   #279
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That's fine. I've no issue with that.



I see. The citizenry is happy with intrusive state powers, e.g, the power to arrest someone for the offence of, as you aptly put it, 'being a jerk'.

In that case, I suppose it gets what it deserves.

.

Have you got a source for the assertion that Gates has psychological issues?

Based on going to the race card quickly in this case makes him suspect of questionable persecution type complex issues, opportunistic or exploitative behaviors or a combination of the 3. Remember, the cop in question has had no complaints of being a dirty cop. Steele reminds of this as well.

Also, it's suspect he sent the original lady who called the police dept flowers-when she was the one who thought things looked askew when he was trying to 'enter his home'. Smacks of opportunism and that he has issues with mistaken white guys but not mistaken white females, a twisted version of sexism if you will. The man appears to be a flamer of opportunistic divisiveness.

I think that the USA in it's totality is fine with the protective restrictions of police power, we have our checks and balances and attorneys on every corner to right any wrongs. By the same token we collectively as a nation frown on citizens that try an exploit a situation...and call people out on who do it.

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Old 08-02-2009, 09:44 PM   #280
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Based on going to the race card quickly in this case makes him suspect of questionable persecution type complex issues, opportunistic or exploitative behaviors or a combination of the 3. Remember, the cop in question has had no complaints of being a dirty cop. Steele reminds of this as well.

Also, it's suspect he sent the original lady who called the police dept flowers-when she was the one who thought things looked askew when he was trying to 'enter his home'. Smacks of opportunism and that he has issues with mistaken white guys but not mistaken white females, a twisted version of sexism if you will. The man appears to be a flamer of opportunistic divisiveness.

I think that the USA in it's totality is fine with the protective restrictions of police power, we have our checks and balances and attorneys on every corner to right any wrongs. By the same token we collectively as a nation frown on citizens that try an exploit a situation...and call people out on who do it.

<>
I agree with you as regards this individual probably having issues with regard to a persecution complex, also in regard to the left wing elements of the media trying to fan the flames of this.
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Old 08-02-2009, 09:48 PM   #281
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I agree with you as regards this individual probably having issues with regard to a persecution complex, also in regard to the left wing elements of the media trying to fan the flames of this.
Even with a slant in news reporting, Americans see through BS.

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A new national poll released this afternoon says that more Americans believe Harvard scholar Henry Louis Gates, Jr. is at fault for the face-off in his home that led to his arrest than Cambridge police Sergeant James Crowley, the white officer who handcuffed him.

According to the Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll, 27 percent of respondents named Gates when asked who they felt was more at fault, while 11 percent named Crowley.
As we proceed forward from this event, I think the margin will become more in favor of the cop and less of the professor.

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Old 08-02-2009, 10:25 PM   #282
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Based on going to the race card quickly Also, it's suspect he sent the original lady who called the police dept flowers-when she was the one who thought things looked askew when he was trying to 'enter his home'. Smacks of opportunism and that he has issues with mistaken white guys but not mistaken white females, a twisted version of sexism if you will. The man appears to be a flamer of opportunistic divisiveness.
Good Lord, diamond. That's the most presumptuous (to put it kindly) post I have ever seen here.
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Old 08-03-2009, 09:32 AM   #283
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I think it's sad some appear intellectually dishonest here; while some may appear to have been brain washed into thinking only a certain way in regards to race. Sycophants tethered to one ideology only.

I found this article from Shelby Steele and he does a pretty good job, although he's pretty tacid in approaching Professor Gates conduct going to a 'jet lag' 'cranky old man' excuse, when it was about race w the professor. If it were a black officer in Gates home-Gates wouldn't have went nuts. It's that simple.

He calls out Obama for actually being the "stupid" one in the press conference- sorry Maycocksean.

In the end, Shelby did stick up for Officer Crowley here, and I'm sure it's quite possible he'd be blasted as an Uncle Tom in FYM though.

Run for cover Shel!
Actually, I've reflected more on Obama's comment about the officer being stupid and come to the conclusion that while it was true, it was definitely ill-advised for the President to say so.

I agree with you that if it were the black officer that addressed him (because remember there WAS a black officer in the home) he wouldn't have went nuts. You see it as him cynically deciding to "play the race card", I see it as a "gut reaction" to what he (mistakenly) perceived was happening.
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Old 08-03-2009, 09:44 AM   #284
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As a person who worked campus security while in college, I'm reminded of two calls I got in regards to "suspicious persons."

The first call told me there was a suspicious person walking around the Library with a plastic bag entering and exiting the bathroom repeatedly. In the description, the person was African-American, about 6 feet tall, and had a plastic bag. When I got the the library to check it out, there was an African man with a plastic bag near the bathroom. He worked on a cleaning crew.

The same professor was leaving campus. There is a crosswalk and an African-American male was walking across the street. It was clear that the man had difficulty walking, so it took some time. The professor honked his horn and yelled out the window. The man walking across the street, according to the professor, "stared into the car with a menacing look." So the professor waited for the man to enter his car. He then waited and followed the man three blocks OFF campus while calling the city police. The man being followed was terrified and called the police saying an enraged man was following him! He told the police the man was threatening him. On-lookers saw what had happened and the only thing that they saw was a man yelling out the window and honking his horn at another man who was struggling to cross the street.

Unfortunately, this Christian Reformed based school doesn't get much exposure to people who are not Caucasian and middle to upper class. I too wish there didn't have to be people who play the "race card" as Diamond calls it. But until situations like the two I listed above cease to exist, we are probably going to have these reactions.
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Old 08-03-2009, 09:49 AM   #285
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Actually, I've reflected more on Obama's comment about the officer being stupid and come to the conclusion that while it was true, it was definitely ill-advised for the President to say so.

I agree with you that if it were the black officer that addressed him (because remember there WAS a black officer in the home) he wouldn't have went nuts. You see it as him cynically deciding to "play the race card", I see it as a "gut reaction" to what he (mistakenly) perceived was happening.
I agree with your view maycocksean. Didn't it say that Gates and Obama were friends? I guess I also feel that he may have overreacted because of his friendship with the man.
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