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Old 07-28-2009, 07:12 PM   #181
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God, even in the transcripts Larry King is cutting off his guest's answers and trying to talk while they are. The man needs to learn to let people speak
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Old 07-28-2009, 07:15 PM   #182
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I'm going to have to agree with Deep on this one. If I were in Gate's position and was acting the same way, theres no way I wouldnt have been arrested too. It seems silly to keep referring to race in this case
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Old 07-28-2009, 07:35 PM   #183
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I don't see anything constructive coming out of Crowley and Skip Gates sitting down together.

Maybe a snapshot of a fake handshake, with the prez in the background, tipping back a Bud?
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Old 07-28-2009, 07:50 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by deep View Post
I am not a big fan of mouthing off to Police... concept
what is the point, how can they do their job without the support of the public?
No one in here, and very few Americans period, are actually 'fans' of that, deep. Like you and diamond, I also was taught by my parents to always show respect, courtesy and, yes, deference to the police, even if I felt they were being hostile or unfair. But maybe with a different inflection, because my parents weren't just thinking in terms of raising well-mannered, law-abiding children; they were also thinking of all the times in the 60s when my father and various friends and associates were arrested and hauled down to the station and slapped around for the 'crime' of registering black voters. They still didn't trust the local police any further than they could throw them, which is to say, their philosophy was: Never trust them to honor your due constitutional rights, even though that's supposedly precisely their job. If they still felt that way in the 70s and 80s when my siblings and I were little, imagine how people who're still having the experience of being stopped or pulled over for 'walking/driving while black' today may often feel towards the police. Is that always a reasonable distrust (and therefore resentment) to have informing your every encounter with the police, of course not, but these aren't things our brains can always be relied on to wisely assess in the moment.
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Not everyone arrested is guilty of any thing. After the arrest they are arraigned and it is determined if they will be charged with a crime
Arrests generally stay on your record. Not a problem for Gates, but for many, many others it is.
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If defference has to be given to one side, right now I have to go with the Police.
It's not about deference, it's about basic constitutional rights and whether they were violated. Forget about race for a minute, forget about class, forget who's smarter or better-liked by their peers or better-behaved: was this 'disorderly conduct' arrest legally justified, would that have held up in court?
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Old 07-28-2009, 08:22 PM   #185
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I am not saying it will fail.






hint:
could the teachable moment be to not blow things out of porportion and blame parties for actions done by others in the past ?

ding
ding
ding..

we have a winner.



but the word is "proportion".
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Old 07-28-2009, 08:24 PM   #186
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It's not about deference, it's about basic constitutional rights and whether they were violated. Forget about race for a minute, forget about class, forget who's smarter or better-liked by their peers or better-behaved: was this 'disorderly conduct' arrest legally justified, would that have held up in court?
it happens all the time. I'm sure there are loop holes in the written law that make it perfectly legal and justified to arrest for disorderly conduct situations like this. Whether or not it holds up in court is irrelevant... I remember a few years back a friend and I got kicked out of a bar for doing absolutely nothing (I'm being honest). I guess the bouncers mistook us for someone else and they came out of nowhere and forcefully tossed us out the back door. There were a few cops patrolling the area, so we made a complaint. Their reply? "go stand on the other side of the road and dont come back". We still had friends in the bar that we were going home with and thought it was completely ridiculous to not allow us on a certain side of the street. So after a few minutes as the bar was starting to empty, we crossed the street to find our friends only to have the cops start yelling at us. My friend's dad was head of one of the departments in our area, so he asked the officer for his name so he could file a formal complaint. The two cops then tackled him to the ground, cuffed him and arrested him for "being drunk in public". It was complete bullshit. to top it all off, all they did was throw him in the cruiser, drive around the back of the bar and let him out again... I think it was all because we were white men in Canada
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Old 07-28-2009, 08:26 PM   #187
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Another thing, to the "we weren't there so we really don't know what happened crowd".

Since we weren't there, how do we know that other than becoming verbally hostile to Crowely that Gates didn't get in his face and thereby force the issue?

Also it is an officer's duty to enforce the law, not be a lawyer and interpret if the charge is going to stick or not. Gates dared Crowely to enforce the law (by his actions) and Crowely did.

<>
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Old 07-28-2009, 08:33 PM   #188
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It was complete bullshit.
And since it involved someone you felt some personal connection to, you recognized that, and years later you're still backing your friend up.
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Old 07-28-2009, 08:37 PM   #189
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And since it involved someone you felt some personal connection to, you recognized that, and years later you're still backing your friend up.
It definitely was bullshit. All I'm saying is that for it to be so prevalent, I'm sure it must be written somewhere that its not unlawful. there are certain laws that seem to just be blanket laws that can apply to many situations in the police officer's favour.
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Old 07-28-2009, 08:40 PM   #190
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Everything I've read is that disorderly conduct is a 'fuzzy' law and mostly at the discretion of the officer on the scene.

That certainly doesn't mean a charge will stick. It also doesn't mean it's a violation of constitutional rights.
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Old 07-28-2009, 09:01 PM   #191
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No one in here, and very few Americans period, are actually 'fans' of that, deep. Like you and diamond, I also was taught by my parents to always show respect, courtesy and, yes, deference to the police, even if I felt they were being hostile or unfair. But maybe with a different inflection, because my parents weren't just thinking in terms of raising well-mannered, law-abiding children; they were also thinking of all the times in the 60s when my father and various friends and associates were arrested and hauled down to the station and slapped around for the 'crime' of registering black voters. They still didn't trust the local police any further than they could throw them, which is to say, their philosophy was: Never trust them to honor your due constitutional rights, even though that's supposedly precisely their job. If they still felt that way in the 70s and 80s when my siblings and I were little, imagine how people who're still having the experience of being stopped or pulled over for 'walking/driving while black' today may often feel towards the police. Is that always a reasonable distrust (and therefore resentment) to have informing your every encounter with the police, of course not, but these aren't things our brains can always be relied on to wisely assess in the moment.
I think the civil Rights work your parents did is commendable

I know there were and are still bad police when it comes to 'race issues'.

I am one that supports affirmative action, I believe it is the best way to lessen these 'race problems' that still exist today.

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Arrests generally stay on your record. Not a problem for Gates, but for many, many others it is.
How many times have you been arrested?


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It's not about deference, it's about basic constitutional rights and whether they were violated. Forget about race for a minute, forget about class, forget who's smarter or better-liked by their peers or better-behaved: was this 'disorderly conduct' arrest legally justified, would that have held up in court?
I do think that when an officer is following up on a reported potential crime and doing the field work by asking questions a reasonable person would not mouth off. How could the police do their work if at every call they were met by someone mouthing off?



by including the story about the disgusting things your parents put up helping people register to vote,
are you wanting to make a parallel with this officer following up on a possible break in. I don't see the connection.
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Old 07-28-2009, 09:05 PM   #192
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It's not about deference, it's about basic constitutional rights and whether they were violated. Forget about race for a minute, forget about class, forget who's smarter or better-liked by their peers or better-behaved: was this 'disorderly conduct' arrest legally justified, would that have held up in court?
If the professor has a constitutional beef, he should bring a lawsuit.

If not, he should bring a beer.
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Old 07-28-2009, 09:11 PM   #193
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it happens all the time. I'm sure there are loop holes in the written law that make it perfectly legal and justified to arrest for disorderly conduct situations like this. Whether or not it holds up in court is irrelevant... I remember a few years back a friend and I got kicked out of a bar for doing absolutely nothing (I'm being honest). I guess the bouncers mistook us for someone else and they came out of nowhere and forcefully tossed us out the back door. There were a few cops patrolling the area, so we made a complaint. Their reply? "go stand on the other side of the road and dont come back". We still had friends in the bar that we were going home with and thought it was completely ridiculous to not allow us on a certain side of the street. So after a few minutes as the bar was starting to empty, we crossed the street to find our friends only to have the cops start yelling at us. My friend's dad was head of one of the departments in our area, so he asked the officer for his name so he could file a formal complaint. The two cops then tackled him to the ground, cuffed him and arrested him for "being drunk in public". It was complete bullshit. to top it all off, all they did was throw him in the cruiser, drive around the back of the bar and let him out again... I think it was all because we were white men in Canada

I have my stories, too.

I have a pretty good one at the airport, what I went through when I went to bury my father.

but your story and my stories don't really add up to much
accept to give us a little 'insight'
and if these things happened to us much more often
and if the person doing them, implied by what they said that our race was the reason we were being singled out.

I can empathise with people of color that are hassled, it happens, probably more than most of us 'white folks' realize.


all that being said, this incident is not a clear cut case at all, as a matter of fact, I have not read or seen anything about race from law enforcement towards Mr Gates.

during this last election cycle some old Politician said. "I don't want that boy's finger on the trigger to the bomb" Referring to Obama as a boy was enough to suggest this person had a problem with race issues.

the officer has been around, he has a history and a record. if he had 'race issues' I think we would have heard about it, I am sure there has be some serious digging into his past by now.
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Old 07-28-2009, 09:40 PM   #194
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Two things. First, you didn't answer yolland's questions, and I'm genuinely curious to read what you think:

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It's not about deference, it's about basic constitutional rights and whether they were violated. Forget about race for a minute, forget about class, forget who's smarter or better-liked by their peers or better-behaved: was this 'disorderly conduct' arrest legally justified, would that have held up in court?

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Originally Posted by deep View Post

all that being said, this incident is not a clear cut case at all, as a matter of fact, I have not read or seen anything about race from law enforcement towards Mr Gates.

...

the officer has been around, he has a history and a record. if he had 'race issues' I think we would have heard about it, I am sure there has be some serious digging into his past by now.
Second, how do you attribute the discrepancy between what the officer wrote in his report, and what we heard in the 911 call, given that the caller had no reason to fabricate or change her story, but that the officer certainly did?
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Old 07-28-2009, 09:50 PM   #195
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Two things. First, you didn't answer yolland's questions, and I'm genuinely curious to read what you think:






Second, how do you attribute the discrepancy between what the officer wrote in his report, and what we heard in the 911 call, given that the caller had no reason to fabricate or change her story, but that the officer certainly did?
would the arrest have held up in court?

who knows,
I think many arrest do not hold up
I have been arrested, only to have the charges dropped

and you should have heard me curse the fuckin' cops up and down.

I don't see how this is a case of 'false arrest'


please tell me how heavy the discrepancy is?
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