AEON
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Would you seriously question the intelligence of these major contributors to science, society, and the arts?
Why Are You Not a Christian?
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Would you seriously question the intelligence of these major contributors to science, society, and the arts?
I'm a Christian but I don't believe atheists should be blamed for moral decay or be seen as immoral people. Just because someone says "I am Christian" or wears a cross around their neck (or rather, any religious symbol around their neck) does not automatically mean that they are more moral than anyone.
What I do believe is that atheists should not be so judgmental towards anyone who does believe in God. The insults in this thread and other FYM threads make my teeth clench. Who are you to say that I am not intelligent or that I am childish because I believe in something bigger than me? Do you have any idea what I've gone through in life? Do you have any idea what I've experienced to make me believe that there is God? Since you don't, you have no right to basically say that I am stupid or delusional.
phillyfan26
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I think one of the problems a lot of atheists encounter are things like my own problems with religion: it was forced upon by the older generation, a generation of people who think they're doing their children good by forcing their religious beliefs on them. I currently feel like the worst thing I could tell my mother right now is that I don't believe in God. If there's one thing in the world that would make her cut me out of her life, it would be that. She has told me that she doesn't care what I do with my life, and that her only wish is that I continue to practice a Catholic faith.
It's that kind of attitude about religion, that attitude that not believing in God is the greatest sin a person can commit on Earth, that causes many atheists to hold a strong resentment against religious persons. It's only a reciprocating action.
I know too many good religious people to make statements like that, but I can totally understand it coming from other atheists.
It's that kind of attitude about religion, that attitude that not believing in God is the greatest sin a person can commit on Earth, that causes many atheists to hold a strong resentment against religious persons. It's only a reciprocating action.
I know too many good religious people to make statements like that, but I can totally understand it coming from other atheists.
AEON
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Would you consider this childish?
wikipedia said:
why am i not christian?
common sense?
About common sense...
wikipedia said:
Irvine511
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on a more serious note,
the more i learn about the world, the more i think the idea of a "savior" is ridiculous. this is not to cast aside any claims about spirituality, or even what we might call god. the notions of sin, heaven, hell, punishment, reward, the saved and the damned -- these are all notions that, to me, speak much more about people seeking control over other people than about any authentic spiritual path. it makes much more sense that a path towards god is not through an external savior, but inwards. it also seems insane to me to look at a book written thousands of years ago and use it as a rulebook.
i can find much to admire in the "jesus message," and it could be posited that one way to god/spirituality is through our treatment of one another, recognizing our common humanity, and even, though the suffering of Christ (while not unique, rather common), we recognize that our fellow man suffers pain just as we do and it should be this recognition, the realization of the Golden Rule, that becomes a step forward in the evolution of consciousness.
but none of that needs to be predicated upon exclusivity and "only one way to the father." to me, such exclusivity feels tacked on by people out to sell a belief system.
the more i learn about the world, the more i think the idea of a "savior" is ridiculous. this is not to cast aside any claims about spirituality, or even what we might call god. the notions of sin, heaven, hell, punishment, reward, the saved and the damned -- these are all notions that, to me, speak much more about people seeking control over other people than about any authentic spiritual path. it makes much more sense that a path towards god is not through an external savior, but inwards. it also seems insane to me to look at a book written thousands of years ago and use it as a rulebook.
i can find much to admire in the "jesus message," and it could be posited that one way to god/spirituality is through our treatment of one another, recognizing our common humanity, and even, though the suffering of Christ (while not unique, rather common), we recognize that our fellow man suffers pain just as we do and it should be this recognition, the realization of the Golden Rule, that becomes a step forward in the evolution of consciousness.
but none of that needs to be predicated upon exclusivity and "only one way to the father." to me, such exclusivity feels tacked on by people out to sell a belief system.
DrTeeth
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You know we do have this handy ignore feature...
But don't you mods have this handy ban feature?
AEON
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A classic quote from the most "logical" character in recent memory...
Religion doesn't interest me at all. I am probably most accurately described as an agnostic with some spiritual leanings in some respects, but organized religion is as useful to me as a pet rock.
There are many commendable teachings that Jesus introduced, and I would probably follow a great number of them. But being told what to think by an organization and being required to proselytize - see ya later.
There are many commendable teachings that Jesus introduced, and I would probably follow a great number of them. But being told what to think by an organization and being required to proselytize - see ya later.
indra
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And, just as not all Christians or people of other faiths bash atheists, not all atheists or agnostics -- even in this thread -- bash Christians and people of other faiths. So why are you lumping us all together? If you don't like it, what makes you think we do? You just did what you don't want others doing to you -- you didn't say some atheists, you said atheists. Are you really offended by everyone who said they don't believe in a god in this thread or just some of them?
See how easy it is to generalise? Even when you don't necessarily mean to do so.
2861U2
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You're right, it is easy to generalize, and I didn't mean to do so. I apologize if I offended anyone.
I am not offended when someone says they don't believe in God. People are going to believe whatever they believe, you can't stop that. I guess what sets me off is when I tell people I do believe in God, I literally get attacked, verbally. Some of the comments - not all, some - in this thread made me feel like I was being attacked even if I wasn't.
phillyfan26
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I feel like we're on the path to this becoming an argument over whether Christians or atheists are more "oppressed" in America.
Irvine511
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how could it be an argument, though? there's absolutely no evidence that there's any oppression of Christians, whereas there's widespread social antipathy aimed at atheists. now, in FYM, one could make that case, but certainly not in the world.
i suppose one thing that some people are mistaking is criticism of an individual Christian -- like how the poster of this thread gets very smug on topics such as this and is very open about recruitment -- and individual expressions of Christianity in politics and culture with broad criticism at all Christians, everywhere.
i agree that some of the comments on here are unfair. but i also think there's a huge lack of self-awareness on the part of some Christians and that's what people kick back against so hard.
phillyfan26
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I've seen it argued a number of times here that it's hard to be a Christian these days, or something like that.
Like many other arguments around here, they can exist even when logic says they shouldn't.
MrsSpringsteen
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Maybe it's just hard to be a Christian when some people who are not seem to think they know automatically what that makes you. Just a thought.
Jive Turkey
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For a thread that started off on such a trollish foot, its actually turned into an interesting topic I have a question for those who were born, raised, and are still practicing the same religion. And this isnt meant to be offensive. I actually regret my wording in a previous post as it was mostly reactionary and not so well thought out. I'm sorry if it upset anyone, but there is still something to it that I dont understand. If not a product of being ingrained into you at a young age, how do you justify to yourself that the religion that you just so happen to be born into is the correct one? This had nothing to do with intelligence or immaturity as I'll guess that the majority of the Nobel Prize winners, scientists, and philosophers that AEON listed fall into the same category. I dont have numbers to back it up, but I think it would be safe to assume that the majority of religious people on earth also fall into that category. How would you explain that? I'm by no means assuming that you are required to justify yourself to me or to anyone else, but out of a genuine curiosity to hear what you think, how would you?
I have a question for those who were born, raised, and are still practicing the same religion. And this isnt meant to be offensive. I actually regret my wording in a previous post as it was mostly reactionary and not so well thought out. I'm sorry if it upset anyone, but there is still something to it that I dont understand. If not a product of being ingrained into you at a young age, how do you justify to yourself that the religion that you just so happen to be born into is the correct one? This had nothing to do with intelligence or immaturity as I'll guess that the majority of the Nobel Prize winners, scientists, and philosophers that AEON listed fall into the same category. I dont have numbers to back it up, but I think it would be safe to assume that the majority of religious people on earth also fall into that category. How would you explain that? I'm by no means assuming that you are required to justify yourself to me or to anyone else, but out of a genuine curiosity to hear what you think, how would you?For a thread that started off on such a trollish foot, its actually turned into an interesting topic
Yeah, seriously!
As for the rest of your post, I was raised a Catholic but I am not sure if I am still Catholic. I do identify as a Christian, but I guess the best way to describe my faith one foot in religion, the other in free form spirituality.
I don't follow Jesus Christ just because I was raised to do so. It's just I've had some events in my life that pointed me in that direction. I don't want to reveal too much of my life, but that was the outcome.
Yes, I turned to Christianity partly because of my upbringing, but the results is what kept me with it. If I didn't get any results, I would've tried another religion. So, it is the results not what I was told to do that make me identify as Christian.
AEON
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As I've written before, I was an atheist before studying philosophy in college. Once my mind was open to a generic concept of "God" - I eventually became convinced that the message of Jesus Christ made the most since in regards how this God interacts with human beings.
For me, it was a slowly evolving intellectual pursuit and not a result of upbringing or a result of hitting "rock bottom" and reaching out for a Savior (not to invalidate those paths, they are just not mine).
For me, it was a slowly evolving intellectual pursuit and not a result of upbringing or a result of hitting "rock bottom" and reaching out for a Savior (not to invalidate those paths, they are just not mine).
U2DMfan
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Probably would help the discourse if people would bother to distinguish between religion and belief in God.
You can't prove or disprove the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
But you can certainly give organized religion the thorough beating it deserves.
You can't prove or disprove the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
But you can certainly give organized religion the thorough beating it deserves.
deep
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When you were an atheist did you have a good value system, moral code?
phillyfan26
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I'm much more open to the idea of God existing (I don't believe but I also wouldn't say I'm sure either) than I am to the idea of organized religion. I personally find organized religion to be generally a bad thing for people based on my observations of the actions of said religions and how it affects people.
Vincent Vega
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Not to justify it, but if you are an atheist/agnostic this kind of reaction, sometimes extremely harsh, is what you frequently get when you "out" yourself as someone not believing. It often makes you think twice if you want to reveal your own non-spirituality or rather keep quiet.
A_Wanderer
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Given that the very first person on your list is Albert Einstein, a man who explicitly denied the existence of a personal God and described the God of Judaism as a childish superstition I wouldn't put too much stock in it.
Throwing out great minds of history as exemplars of smart Christians without noting the social setting of the time is dishonest, for instance Giordano Bruno was burnt at the stake for heresy (an illustration of religious tolerance), and Galileo was threatened with torture and imprisoned for asserting Copernicanism. David Hume is an interesting choice as well, I suspect that the writer of On Miracles would be a new atheist if he were alive today.
You are throwing out names left right and centre, but even if you were giving an honest list this says nothing about the level of education and intelligence of the group. If you take 10,000 Christians and 10,000 disbelievers it is overwhelmingly likely that the disbelievers will be better educated on average.
I have to repeat it so many times, even if as a group disbelievers are smarter, this doesn't mean that all Christians aren't.
A_Wanderer
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A very false comparison, QM produces very accurate predictions about empirical questions (unlike Christianity), the issue with string theories not producing any distinct predictions is a valid criticism, but it doesn't make that branch of theoretical physics religion.
A_Wanderer
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Were you raised in a religious environment as a child?
How long did you consider yourself an atheist?
What justified your earlier atheism?
martha
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This is an interesting point. My husband attended a lecture by the Dalai Lama a few weeks ago, and one of his points was that one should try to follow the religion of one's culture. For instance, Asians would be Buddhists, Americans Christian, etc, although I'm not sure if he specified like that. The point I think he was trying to make is that religion is a social and cultural function as a well as a spiritual function, and so many American Buddhists are very unclear as to the cultural aspects of Buddhism. Now, my husband has been giving this some thought, since he's a Buddhist. It's troubling him somewhat.
My adult religion is not Christianity, but I was raised in a Lutheran home. We're Norwegian by background, so Lutheranism was a given. I'm not a Christian now because that path doesn't resonate with me. I understand that it's a path, just the same as mine, but not mine.
AEON
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Moderate. My moral code at the time was Ayn Rand's Objectivism.
AEON
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No
About 5 to 7 years
I thought only idiots or the desperate believed in God.
OP
OP
the iron horse
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I find it somewhat disrespectful of the way you always seem to refer to The Lord that you believe in as a "rebel" & I am a Reluctant Atheist LOL
No, I do not think the term rebel is disrespectful.
He is the only person, I think, who has ever lived on this planet who can be called a rebel.
AEON
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I agree, I wouldn't compare string theory to religion. I was addressing the "unseen" and "common sense" comments. I am a follower of QM research and I believe it further demonstrates God's glory.
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