Why Are You Not a Christian?

[phillyfan26]

Like a cheese sandwich?

My films feature mysterious!

 

[phillyfan26]

If you'd continue to go to church despite not believing in what it teaches, wouldn't you be living a lie?

How about setting a community of non-believers where you could do the same activities and meet people?

I suppose I'm living a lie. It's not a big deal to me. No one's getting hurt aside from me losing a couple hours of sleep on Sunday morning. I mean, people live lies every day. Most of them, like this one is to me, are very minor lies that are totally inconsequential in the end.

And I think it's much worse for someone to regularly attend church only out of a fear that they're going to hell if they don't than it is for someone to go so that they don't cause their mother to disown them.

As for the last part of your post, it's not like I don't have friends and activities outside of any type of religious activity.

 

[U2DMfan]

If you'd continue to go to church despite not believing in what it teaches, wouldn't you be living a lie?

A "lie" relative to what?

He may be effectively lying to his mother but he's not living a lie. There has to be a 'mother' exception, he's not trying to fool the world, he's just sparing his mother the pain. I did the same thing a handful of times, for the same reason.

Did you ever go and get drunk on the weekends in your youth and not tell your parents? (or something similar, skip school, smoke cigarettes or J's with your friends, etc.) Is this living a lie? Or is it what we do to try and ease the grief on ourselves and our parents for the fact that eventually our mindsets (sometimes) totally divert from the way they raised us.

I fully appreciate what piff is doing, he's trying not to offend his mother.
He's a lot younger than most of us, if he's doing it when he's 25, then maybeyeah.

 

[cobl04]

No, seriously, if he's thinking about attending church while not believing, is that not living a lie?

wouldn't matter if you don't care. i've been going to masses and things at church etc for years without really believing, it doesn't even cross my mind whether i'm "living a lie"..

 

[phillyfan26]

My problems generally don't lie with religious individuals; the vast majority of religious individuals are good people. It's religious leaders that I tend to have a problem with. There's a consistent trend of leaders taking advantage of their statuses as "representative" of God, dating back to the creation of religion.

 

[indra]

The main reason I still attend mass regularly is because my parents are very religious and it would crush them if they knew I hold no religious beliefs. I suck it up and go to church. When I'm away for school, I don't attend.

But I do think when I'm older I might go back for the communal aspect of it. I generally seem to like a lot of the people in my parish and activities like CYO sports. I just don't believe in anything the church stands for.

I knew it! I was going to post "to keep the parents happy" but decided I should probably let you post your reasons yourself.

I think a lot of people go to church for the community aspect of it, especially small towns and rural areas where there really isn't much else going on socially. I know where I grew up this was the case.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I do think that people who believe in a god or gods or who are part of an organised religion find it fills a need or a desire in them. The needs filled by belief in god/gods/higher power or religion in some are filled just as successfully by other things for other people. We don't need to all believe the same things to be good and fulfilled people. It's not a one size fits all world.

 

[bigjohn2441]

why am i not christian?

common sense?

 

[anitram]

I fully appreciate what piff is doing, he's trying not to offend his mother.
He's a lot younger than most of us, if he's doing it when he's 25, then maybeyeah.

I'm 30 years old and I never go to church except when I am home for the holidays (Christmas). My brother is 26, same thing. We do it because it is much easier and more pleasant than causing a scene at our parents' house. Though my Mom always raised us to choose our own way, and seemingly we have, my Dad is much more traditional/conservative and doesn't understand it as much. Part of being an adult is making concessions and compromising.

 

[trojanchick99]

I'm a very analytical type person, so I could never just have "faith" that the things in the Bible were true. I always asked questions and wanted proof. I was also a Classics major in college so having studied the beginning of Christianity would have ruined it for me anyway.

 

[Got Philk?]

No, seriously, if he's thinking about attending church while not believing, is that not living a lie?

I guess to me what Pfan does is no more a lie than the actions of those who only go to church because of guilt; or any number of reasons. Some only go to church when they are in need of something. Some go because they think that giving during offering time allows them to live how they please. My mom believes in going to church and prayer because it is a comfort to her.

I choose to go to church. I have not been brain washed into this belief. As stated earlier, my wife (Liesje) doesn't go or agree with church. My reason for going to church is that I do have faith. I believe in Jesus and I try to live like he did.

Here's the part where you all can blast me for the "brainwashing" idea. I teach Sunday School. I teach 3rd graders and I focus mainly on events during Jesus' life when teaching.

Though I could never say this to them, I believe the Old Testament is full of stories that are meant for good, but have been passed along and edited or used for many different religions or situations.

I think church and prayer are not necessary. In fact, I think if I were to say that you are a sinner for not attending church or praying, I would be sinning in that I would be judging you. Prayer is personal. When I pray, I don't pray asking for anything. At this point, I am not sure that I believe prayer will change any situations. I do pray thanking God for things. Again, I don't know if this does anything outside of myself.

I do not look down on you if you are not a Christian. I have seen some pretty fake "Christians" as I have grown up as a pastor's kid. I didn't go to church for 7 years until recently. And it had nothing to do with what anyone else thought I should do.

 

[LarryMullen's POPAngel]

I guess to me what Pfan does is no more a lie than the actions of those who only go to church because of guilt; or any number of reasons. Some only go to church when they are in need of something. Some go because they think that giving during offering time allows them to live how they please. My mom believes in going to church and prayer because it is a comfort to her.

I choose to go to church. I have not been brain washed into this belief. As stated earlier, my wife (Liesje) doesn't go or agree with church. My reason for going to church is that I do have faith. I believe in Jesus and I try to live like he did.

Here's the part where you all can blast me for the "brainwashing" idea. I teach Sunday School. I teach 3rd graders and I focus mainly on events during Jesus' life when teaching.

Though I could never say this to them, I believe the Old Testament is full of stories that are meant for good, but have been passed along and edited or used for many different religions or situations.

I think church and prayer are not necessary. In fact, I think if I were to say that you are a sinner for not attending church or praying, I would be sinning in that I would be judging you. Prayer is personal. When I pray, I don't pray asking for anything. At this point, I am not sure that I believe prayer will change any situations. I do pray thanking God for things. Again, I don't know if this does anything outside of myself.

I do not look down on you if you are not a Christian. I have seen some pretty fake "Christians" as I have grown up as a pastor's kid. I didn't go to church for 7 years until recently. And it had nothing to do with what anyone else thought I should do.

Great post, Phil. It's always refreshing to see someone hold onto their beliefs and keep a level head about things, and that goes for any religion or belief system.

I began going to church pretty regularly this year for the first time in my life (before it was a here and there sort of thing as a kid, as my parents did not attend very much when I was growing up, and I was perfectly ok with it). At first it was great, and at times it still is, but as time has gone on I've seen the judgementalness seeping through, not so much towards me (though I have had the occasional "why haven't you been to church lately?" hurled at me) but towards others and it's disappointing, to say the least. I don't tell people I see for twenty minutes once a week how to live their lives; I expect the same courtesy.

Anyway, I have found a balance with how church fits into my life. I pray everyday and I feel that my personal beliefs, while they can be enhanced by going to church, are not exclusive to church, and are mine and mine alone. Frankly, there are some aspects of the Christian church I find horrid (the day that I had a pastor announce that one of the members used to be gay and is now straight and is free of his sin just about sent me over the edge, and I don't go to that pastor's services anymore). And to be honest, I find more spirituality in a piece of rock and roll music than some stuff I've read in the bible, but that's just me...

Not sure if that all made sense, but there it is. Just had to add my two cents on the subject.

 

[Pearl]

I guess to me what Pfan does is no more a lie than the actions of those who only go to church because of guilt; or any number of reasons. Some only go to church when they are in need of something. Some go because they think that giving during offering time allows them to live how they please. My mom believes in going to church and prayer because it is a comfort to her.

OK, OK, I asked a silly question. It wasn't meant to be an attack or a judgment on Phillyfan26, I was simply curious.

 

[Jive Turkey]

I thought it was a legit question and you didnt appear to offend Pfan, so I'm sure its all sunshine lollipops and rainbows

 

[Screwtape2]

You summed up two of the big ones better than I could here:

Moral
- I don't think that we are responsible for the crimes of our ancestors, original sin is an evil concept, and I pity you if you have to live with it.
- I don't like scapegoating, I can't do away with my moral responsibility by accepting Jesus.

More than anything I'm not a Christian or believer in any supreme being because I've yet to find an answer to one big question. If a god or gods created all the universe, why would they concern themselves with humans? Throwing out all the texts, that's the one basic flaw in the existence of a supreme being. Are our mundane prayers and hopes that important when compared to the entire universe?

 

[Got Philk?]

OK, OK, I asked a silly question. It wasn't meant to be an attack or a judgment on Phillyfan26, I was simply curious.

I'm sorry! My response wasn't meant to point you out as judging. Sorry...

I think it was actually me venting more than anything. It is frustrating when some Christians...even pastors and Churches as a whole, give overall Christianity a bad name.

April, the whole Homosexuality thing...don't get me started.

 

[Angela Harlem]

I can't really answer this without insulting anyone, but I find the idea of believing in an unseen entity a little, well, childlike. It's so make-believe at its most base level. Added on to that is a whole slew of notions which are manipulated and created/recreated to suit a need, that I find the idea of it being the truth nothing but preposterous. Millions of people and thousands of years do not an accurate historical account make. Let's not even bother with contemplating the countless interpretations of this particular book.

In a nutshell, humankind cannot have practically maintained this Christian religious caper to what it was supposed to be. The requirement of belief in an intangible entity is akin to Sally on Home & Away with her Milko friend. That the ever changing and evolving beliefs are a truth and the only true measure of morals? Bullshit. I am absolutely aware of right and wrong without God, Jesus or some ghostly spirit.

 

[Moser]

Why are you not a Christian?

Several reasons:

1. To be a Christian requires faith:

Belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting solely and implicitly on his authority and veracity; reliance on testimony.[1913 Webster]

2. It requires faith in a god:

A being conceived of as possessing supernatural power, and to be propitiated by sacrifice, worship, etc.; a divinity; a deity; an object of worship; an idol.

3. It requires the complete, irrational faith in a god to achieve an eternal life in heaven:

All who thus believe in Christ will certainly be saved (John 6:37, 40; 10:27, 28; Rom. 8:1)

It is called "paradise" (Luke 23:43; 2 Cor. 12:4; Rev. 2:7)

The "better country" (Heb. 11:14, 16)

4. It can be used as tool to take advantage of its followers:

- The Crusades
- Mass suicides, e.g. People's Temple
- Sexual Abuse
- Tithing
- Inquisition

5. Christianity is intolerant.

Not tolerating difference of opinion or sentiment, especially in religious matters; refusing to allow others the enjoyment of their opinions, rights, or worship; unjustly impatient of the opinion of those disagree with us; not tolerant; unforbearing; bigoted

6. Christianity inhibits learning and revision. In particular, it has for years been slow to adopt scientific explanations, explanations advocated by true evidence, and has recently had to revise its own beliefs in order to closely match those of realities.

7. Why are you a Christian?

 

[Kieran McConville]

Thanks again for starting this thread, Iron Horse. Really, good job!

 

[martha]

Thanks again for starting this thread, Iron Horse. Really, good job!

By his own admission, he trolls. He's said that he posts on this board and a Linkin Park board to proselytize. (I'm not sure I spelled Linkin Park correctly, but you know who I mean.) He rarely comes back to post in his own threads. He thinks he's doing people a favor by doing this shit.

And then people can come here and be as insulting as they like, thinking they're only insulting a troll.

 

[corianderstem]

By his own admission, he trolls.

How .... distasteful.

 

[Diemen]

You know we do have this handy ignore feature...

 

[AEON]

why am i not christian?

common sense?

There are quite a few intellectual and educated Christians. You can't simply write it off that easily...as I wouldn't completely dismiss those in Buddhism or pure Atheism as lacking anything intellectually. There many reasons individuals come to their faith...or lack of it.

And a vast majority of greatest philosophers and writers throughout history acknowledge God in some way...

 

[deep]

Thanks again for starting this thread, Iron Horse. Really, good job!

I think it is one of the better threads we have had in here in some time.

No one has to answer.
I think all the name calling (trolling) is unfortunate and not very kind or Christian.

 

[U2DMfan]

By his own admission, he trolls. He's said that he posts on this board and a Linkin Park board to proselytize.
.

Maybe Linkin Park fans do need to be prayed for.

God bless them, for they know not what utter crap they listen to.

 

[A_Wanderer]

The generalisations made in this thread are offensive to moderate Christians, but there is a legitimate point about the connections between knowledge, intelligence, and religious belief. Smart people can be very devout, but it often seems they have been raised in a religious tradition and come up with clever accommodations between faith and reason later on in life.

I have an axe to grind with the political and cultural interference of religion on peoples freedoms, so if it doesn't pick my pocket or break my leg then I don't have a problem with peoples right to believe and practice whatever they want.

 

[Kieran McConville]

I think it is one of the better threads we have had in here in some time.

No one has to answer.
I think all the name calling (trolling) is unfortunate and not very kind or Christian.

No one has to answer but they will, because the thread is here to be answered. And the name calling is inevitable.

So again, great discussion starter, Iron Horse.

 

[deep]

Lots of threads don't get many responses

and the name callers are responsible for there own actions

I really don't see Iron Horse ever calling names

this thread has only given believers and non-believers a chance write something (if they choose to or not)

 

[Kieran McConville]

Well this has been a nice meta-discussion, and I know it's my own fault, I really should have resiled from more commenting.

You are correct, Iron Horse didn't call anyone names. Sorry if my post was opaque, as it wasn't actually him I was referring to (except for starting the damn thread, which he must have known would turn sour, it's like asking when you stopped beating your wife).

 

[Kieran McConville]

I have no problem with what faith remains in my own life, as it does not stand in contradiction to what I know, but is beyond what I know. To the best of my knowledge it does not impinge on my freedom, nor does it require me to give up my intellect. If it did, that would be a different matter.

To all the usual arguments rolled out above:

All human institutions and endeavours can be used to control people. Every last one. Enter with your eyes wide open.

'Religion is intolerant'. Whatever. Gosh. I don't even know where to start.

Angela Harlem: 'childlike'. Again. Whatever. Irrational, childlike, the words just roll one over the other. We human beings have intellect and rationality, for sure. But I think there is more to the experience than that.

 

[indra]

You are correct, Iron Horse didn't call anyone names. Sorry if my post was opaque, as it wasn't actually him I was referring to (except for starting the damn thread, which he must have known would turn sour, it's like asking when you stopped beating your wife).

I think part of the reason so many people who are atheists (and agnostics, because many people think of agnostics are the same as atheists) -- at least in the US -- often get so testy is we often face a terrific amount of venom from "believers."

There's this study:

Atheists Identified as America’s Most Distrusted Minority,
According to Sociological Study

Washington, DC—American’s increasing acceptance of religious diversity does not extend to those who don’t believe in a god, according to a national survey by researchers in the University of Minnesota’s department of sociology. The study will appear in the April issue of the American Sociological Review.

From a telephone sampling of more than 2,000 households, university researchers found that Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in “sharing their vision of American society.” Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry.

Even though atheists are few in number, not formally organized and relatively hard to publicly identify, they are seen as a threat to the American way of life by a large portion of the American public. “Atheists, who account for about 3 percent of the U.S. population, offer a glaring exception to the rule of increasing social tolerance over the last 30 years,” says Penny Edgell, associate sociology professor and the study’s lead researcher.

Edgell also argues that today’s atheists play the role that Catholics, Jews and communists have played in the past—they offer a symbolic moral boundary to membership in American society. “It seems most Americans believe that diversity is fine, as long as every one shares a common ‘core’ of values that make them trustworthy—and in America, that ‘core’ has historically been religious,” says Edgell. Many of the study’s respondents associated atheism with an array of moral indiscretions ranging from criminal behavior to rampant materialism and cultural elitism.

Edgell believes a fear of moral decline and resulting social disorder is behind the findings. “Americans believe they share more than rules and procedures with their fellow citizens—they share an understanding of right and wrong,” she said. “Our findings seem to rest on a view of atheists as self-interested individuals who are not concerned with the common good.”

The researchers also found acceptance or rejection of atheists is related not only to personal religiosity, but also to one’s exposure to diversity, education and political orientation—with more educated, East and West Coast Americans more accepting of atheists than their Midwestern counterparts.

The study is co-authored by assistant professor Joseph Gerteis and associate professor Doug Hartmann. It’s the first in a series of national studies conducted the American Mosaic Project, a three-year project funded by the Minneapolis-based David Edelstein Family Foundation that looks at race, religion and cultural diversity in the contemporary United States.

link


this article on the same study gives some of the percentages:

Given the increasing religiosity of American culture, it's perhaps not too surprising that a new study out this month finds that Americans are not fond of atheists and trust them less than they do other groups. The depth of this distrust is a bit astonishing nonetheless.

More than 2,000 randomly selected people were interviewed by researchers from the University of Minnesota.

Asked whether they would disapprove of a child's wish to marry an atheist, 47.6 percent of those interviewed said yes. Asked the same question about Muslims and African-Americans, the yes responses fell to 33.5 percent and 27.2 percent, respectively. The yes responses for Asian-Americans, Hispanics, Jews and conservative Christians were 18.5 percent, 18.5 percent, 11.8 percent and 6.9 percent, respectively.

When asked which groups did not share their vision of American society, 39.5 percent of those interviewed mentioned atheists. Asked the same question about Muslims and homosexuals, the figures dropped to a slightly less depressing 26.3 percent and 22.6 percent, respectively. For Hispanics, Jews, Asian-Americans and African-Americans, they fell further to 7.6 percent, 7.4 percent, 7.0 percent and 4.6 percent, respectively.

The study contains other results, but these are sufficient to underline its gist: Atheists are seen by many Americans (especially conservative Christians) as alien and are, in the words of sociologist Penny Edgell, the study's lead researcher, "a glaring exception to the rule of increasing tolerance over the last 30 years."

Edgell also maintains that atheists seem to be outside the limits of American morality, which has largely been defined by religion.

Many of those interviewed saw atheists as cultural elitists, amoral materialists, or given to criminal behavior or drugs. She states, "Our findings seem to rest on a view of atheists as self-interested individuals who are not concerned with the common good."

Of course, it should go without saying, but won't, that belief in God isn't at all necessary to have a keen ethical concern for others.

The study will appear in the April issue of the American Sociological Review and is co-written by assistant professor Joseph Gerteis and associate professor Doug Hartmann.

link


and then there's the outcry over atheist ads on buses as noted in this charming article:

A group of humanists announced this week plans to plaster over 200 buses in Washington DC with ads bearing its "godless holiday" message.

Ads proclaiming, "Why believe in a god? Just be good for goodness' sake", will appear on the outside and inside of DC Metro buses starting next Tuesday and will run throughout December. Newspaper versions of the ads ran in The New York Times and The Washington Post this week.

The advertising campaign is part of an effort by the American Humanist Association to reach out to like-minded individuals around the nation's capital and elsewhere who might be interested in humanism. The atheist group espouses the belief that people can live a moral life apart from a belief in a god or the afterlife.

"Humanists have always understood that you don't need a god to be good," said AHA executive director Roy Speckhardt. "So that's the point we're making with this advertising campaign. Morality doesn't come from religion. It's a set of values embraced by individuals and society based on empathy, fairness, and experience."

One version of the ad features a black Santa shrugging under red and green-coloured text with snowflakes appearing in the background. Posters of the ad will be mounted on the side of DC Metro buses, between the taillights, and behind the driver's seat.

Fred Edwords, spokesman for the humanist group, said the campaign seeks to connect with "non-theists who feel a little alone during the holidays because of its association with traditional religion", according to Fox News.

The move by the American humanists comes one month after the British Humanist Association said it will run ads declaring "There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life" on London buses in January.

British author Richard Dawkins, an activist for a more outspoken and aggressive brand of atheism, which some refer to as "militant atheism", has offered to part fund the London ads.

Whilst the Methodist Church in the UK believes the "no God" ads will have the opposite effect from the one intended and stir an interest in God, Christians in America are not amused at AHA's "godless holiday campaign".

For many Christian groups, the campaign signifies that the cultural war to divorce Christ from Christmas is intensifying.

"It is the ultimate 'grinch' to suggest there is no God during a holiday where millions of people around the world celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ. It is insensitive and mean," remarked Mathew D Staver, founder and chairman of Liberty Counsel, a conservative Christian legal group that has defended the rights of cities and schools to display nativity scenes and Christmas decorations.

"Christmas is a time of joy and hope, not a time for hate," added Staver. "Why believe in God? - Because Santa is not the only one coming to town."

Tim Wildmon, president of American Family Association, which has encouraged its three million member base to boycott businesses that censor Christmas, described the ad as "stupid". He says he cannot understand the logic of the ad's message telling people to be good apart from a belief in God.

"How do we define 'good' if we don't believe in God? God in his word, the Bible, tells us what's good and bad and right and wrong. If we are each ourselves defining what's good, it's going to be a crazy world," said Wildmon, according to Fox News.

Roberta Combs, who heads the Christian Coalition of America, said the campaign's attempt to ban God and Christmas from the public square will not sit well with many Americans.

Unlike Britain, where six in ten people admit they have no religious affiliation, according to a report by the United Nations, the United States is a nation that still overwhelmingly professes a belief in God. Earlier this year, a poll by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life found that 92 per cent of Americans believe in God.

"Although a number of humanists and atheists continue to attempt to rid God and Christmas from the public square, the American people are overwhelmingly opposed to such efforts," said Combs.

She also cited a recent poll published by NBC that found 86 per cent of Americans in favour of keeping "In God We Trust" as the nation's motto and the reference to God in the Pledge of Allegiance.

A spokeswoman at the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority said the agency accepts ads that are not obscene or pornographic, reported Fox News.

But Combs said her organisation plans to mobilise its 2.5 million supporters to contact city officials and Congress to stop the "un-Godly campaign."

link

I've heard people say atheists shouldn't be allowed to hold public office, vote, teach children, even shouldn't be allowed to be US citizens, and should "go back where they came from" even if their families have been in the US for generations. We get told we can't possibly be good people because we don't believe in god (not only in "real life" but also right here in FYM) and that we are responsible for all sorts of moral decay. Meanwhile, we have certain "Christians" getting their shorts in a twist because some sales clerk said Happy Holidays or Seasons Greetings instead of Merry Christmas.

No we shouldn't be snarky, because I'm pretty sure we all know not every Christian thinks this way, but this kind of shit gets old.