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Old 11-30-2009, 09:56 AM   #91
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.. but there is a legitimate point about the connections between knowledge, intelligence, and religious belief...
Would you seriously question the intelligence of these major contributors to science, society, and the arts?

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PART I. Nobel Scientists (20-21 Century)
Albert Einstein Nobel Laureate in Physics - Jewish
Max Planck Nobel Laureate in Physics - Protestant
Erwin Schrodinger Nobel Laureate in Physics - Catholic
Werner Heisenberg Nobel Laureate in Physics - Lutheran
Robert Millikan Nobel Laureate in Physics probably - Congregationalist
Charles Hard Townes Nobel Laureate in Physics - United Church of Christ (raised Baptist)
Arthur Schawlow Nobel Laureate in Physics - Methodist
William D. Phillips Nobel Laureate in Physics - Methodist
William H. Bragg Nobel Laureate in Physics - Anglican
Guglielmo Marconi Nobel Laureate in Physics - Catholic and Anglican
Arthur Compton Nobel Laureate in Physics - Presbyterian
Arno Penzias Nobel Laureate in Physics - Jewish
Nevill Mott Nobel Laureate in Physics - Anglican
Isidor Isaac Rabi Nobel Laureate in Physics - Jewish
Abdus Salam Nobel Laureate in Physics - Muslim
Antony Hewish Nobel Laureate in Physics - Christian (denomination?)
Joseph H. Taylor, Jr. Nobel Laureate in Physics - Quaker
Alexis Carrel Nobel Laureate in Medicine and Physiology - Catholic
John Eccles Nobel Laureate in Medicine and Physiology - Catholic
Joseph Murray Nobel Laureate in Medicine and Physiology - Catholic
Ernst Chain Nobel Laureate in Medicine and Physiology - Jewish
George Wald Nobel Laureate in Medicine and Physiology - Jewish
Ronald Ross Nobel Laureate in Medicine and Physiology - Christian (denomination?)
Derek Barton Nobel Laureate in Chemistry - Christian (denomination?)
Christian Anfinsen Nobel Laureate in Chemistry - Jewish
Walter Kohn Nobel Laureate in Chemistry - Jewish
Richard Smalley Nobel Laureate in Chemistry - Christian (denomination?)

PART II. Nobel Writers (20-21 Century)
T.S. Eliot Nobel Laureate in Literature - Anglo-Catholic (Anglican)
Rudyard Kipling Nobel Laureate in Literature - Anglican
Alexander Solzhenitsyn Nobel Laureate in Literature - Russian Orthodox
François Mauriac Nobel Laureate in Literature - Catholic
Hermann Hesse Nobel Laureate in Literature - Christian; Buddhist?
Winston Churchill Nobel Laureate in Literature - Anglican
Jean-Paul Sartre Nobel Laureate in Literature - Lutheran; Freudian; Marxist; atheist; Messianic Jew-
Sigrid Undset Nobel Laureate in Literature - Catholic (previously Lutheran)
Rabindranath Tagore Nobel Laureate in Literature - Hindu
Rudolf Eucken Nobel Laureate in Literature - Christian (denomination?)
Isaac Singer Nobel Laureate in Literature - Jewish

PART III. Nobel Peace Laureates (20-21 Century)
Albert Schweitzer Nobel Peace Prize Laureate - Lutheran
Jimmy Carter Nobel Peace Prize Laureate - Baptist (former Southern Baptist)
Theodore Roosevelt Nobel Peace Prize Laureate - Dutch Reformed; Episcopalian
Woodrow Wilson Nobel Peace Prize Laureate - Presbyterian
Frederik de Klerk Nobel Peace Prize Laureate - Dutch Reformed
Nelson Mandela Nobel Peace Prize Laureate - Christian (denomination?)
Kim Dae-Jung Nobel Peace Prize Laureate - Catholic
Dag Hammarskjold Nobel Peace Prize Laureate - Christian (denomination?)
Martin Luther King, Jr. Nobel Peace Prize Laureate - Baptist
Adolfo Perez Esquivel Nobel Peace Prize Laureate - Catholic
Desmond Tutu Nobel Peace Prize Laureate - Anglican
John R. Mott Nobel Peace Prize Laureate - Methodist

Part IV. Founders of Modern Science (16-21 Century)
Isaac Newton Founder of Classical Physics and Infinitesimal Calculus - Anglican (rejected Trinitarianism, i.e., Athanasianism;believed in the Arianism of the Primitive Church)
Galileo Galilei Founder of Experimental Physics - Catholic
Nicolaus Copernicus Founder of Heliocentric Cosmology - Catholic (priest)
Johannes Kepler Founder of Physical Astronomy and Modern Optics - Lutheran
Francis Bacon Founder of the Scientific Inductive Method - Anglican
René Descartes Founder of Analytical Geometry and Modern Philosophy - Catholic
Blaise Pascal Founder of Hydrostatics, Hydrodynamics,
and the Theory of Probabilities - Jansenist
Michael Faraday Founder of Electronics and Electro-Magnetics - Sandemanian
James Clerk Maxwell Founder of Statistical Thermodynamics - Presbyterian; Anglican; Baptist
Lord Kelvin Founder of Thermodynamics and Energetics - Anglican
Robert Boyle Founder of Modern Chemistry - Anglican
William Harvey Founder of Modern Medicine - Anglican (nominal)
John Ray Founder of Modern Biology and Natural History - Calvinist (denomination?)
Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz German Mathematician and Philosopher,
Joseph J. Thomson Nobel Laureate in Physics, Discoverer of the Electron,
Founder of Atomic Physics - Anglican
Louis Pasteur Founder of Microbiology and Immunology - Catholic

Part V. Great Philosophers (17-21 Century)
Immanuel Kant One of the Greatest Philosophers
in the History of Western Philosophy - Lutheran
Jean-Jacques Rousseau Founder of Modern Deism born - Protestant;
converted as a teen to Catholic
David Hume Scottish Empiricist Philosopher, Historian, and Economist,
Founder of Modern Skepticism - Church of Scotland (Presbyterian)
Spinoza Dutch-Jewish Philosopher,
the Chief Exponent of Modern Rationalism - Judaism; later pantheism/deism
Giordano Bruno Italian Philosopher, Astronomer, and Mathematician,
Founder of the Theory of the Infinite Universe - Catholic
George Berkeley Irish Philosopher and Mathematician, Founder of Modern Idealism,
Famous as "The Precursor of Mach and Einstein" - Anglican
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Old 11-30-2009, 12:28 PM   #92
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I've heard people say atheists shouldn't be allowed to hold public office, vote, teach children, even shouldn't be allowed to be US citizens, and should "go back where they came from" even if their families have been in the US for generations. We get told we can't possibly be good people because we don't believe in god (not only in "real life" but also right here in FYM) and that we are responsible for all sorts of moral decay. Meanwhile, we have certain "Christians" getting their shorts in a twist because some sales clerk said Happy Holidays or Seasons Greetings instead of Merry Christmas.

No we shouldn't be snarky, because I'm pretty sure we all know not every Christian thinks this way, but this kind of shit gets old.
I'm a Christian but I don't believe atheists should be blamed for moral decay or be seen as immoral people. Just because someone says "I am Christian" or wears a cross around their neck (or rather, any religious symbol around their neck) does not automatically mean that they are more moral than anyone.

What I do believe is that atheists should not be so judgmental towards anyone who does believe in God. The insults in this thread and other FYM threads make my teeth clench. Who are you to say that I am not intelligent or that I am childish because I believe in something bigger than me? Do you have any idea what I've gone through in life? Do you have any idea what I've experienced to make me believe that there is God? Since you don't, you have no right to basically say that I am stupid or delusional.
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Old 11-30-2009, 01:06 PM   #93
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I think one of the problems a lot of atheists encounter are things like my own problems with religion: it was forced upon by the older generation, a generation of people who think they're doing their children good by forcing their religious beliefs on them. I currently feel like the worst thing I could tell my mother right now is that I don't believe in God. If there's one thing in the world that would make her cut me out of her life, it would be that. She has told me that she doesn't care what I do with my life, and that her only wish is that I continue to practice a Catholic faith.

It's that kind of attitude about religion, that attitude that not believing in God is the greatest sin a person can commit on Earth, that causes many atheists to hold a strong resentment against religious persons. It's only a reciprocating action.

I know too many good religious people to make statements like that, but I can totally understand it coming from other atheists.
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Old 11-30-2009, 01:12 PM   #94
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I can't really answer this without insulting anyone, but I find the idea of believing in an unseen entity a little, well, childlike. It's so make-believe at its most base level.
Would you consider this childish?

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In theoretical physics, M-theory is an extension of string theory in which 11 dimensions are identified. Because the dimensionality exceeds the dimensionality of five superstring theories in 10 dimensions, it is believed that the 11-dimensional theory unifies all string theories (and supersedes them). Though a full description of the theory is not yet known, the low-entropy dynamics are known to be supergravity interacting with 2- and 5-dimensional membranes


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why am i not christian?

common sense?
About common sense...

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Originally Posted by wikipedia
Quantum Mechanics is a mathematical description of reality, like any scientific model. Some of its predictions and implications go against the "common sense" of how humans see a set of bodies (a system) behave. This isn't necessarily a failure of QM - it's more of a reflection of how humans understand space and time on larger scales
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Old 11-30-2009, 01:36 PM   #95
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on a more serious note,

the more i learn about the world, the more i think the idea of a "savior" is ridiculous. this is not to cast aside any claims about spirituality, or even what we might call god. the notions of sin, heaven, hell, punishment, reward, the saved and the damned -- these are all notions that, to me, speak much more about people seeking control over other people than about any authentic spiritual path. it makes much more sense that a path towards god is not through an external savior, but inwards. it also seems insane to me to look at a book written thousands of years ago and use it as a rulebook.

i can find much to admire in the "jesus message," and it could be posited that one way to god/spirituality is through our treatment of one another, recognizing our common humanity, and even, though the suffering of Christ (while not unique, rather common), we recognize that our fellow man suffers pain just as we do and it should be this recognition, the realization of the Golden Rule, that becomes a step forward in the evolution of consciousness.

but none of that needs to be predicated upon exclusivity and "only one way to the father." to me, such exclusivity feels tacked on by people out to sell a belief system.
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Old 11-30-2009, 02:24 PM   #96
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You know we do have this handy ignore feature...
But don't you mods have this handy ban feature?
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Old 11-30-2009, 02:28 PM   #97
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A classic quote from the most "logical" character in recent memory...

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"Logic is the beginning of wisdom; not the end." -- Spock (Star Trek VI)
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Old 11-30-2009, 02:30 PM   #98
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Religion doesn't interest me at all. I am probably most accurately described as an agnostic with some spiritual leanings in some respects, but organized religion is as useful to me as a pet rock.

There are many commendable teachings that Jesus introduced, and I would probably follow a great number of them. But being told what to think by an organization and being required to proselytize - see ya later.
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Old 11-30-2009, 02:44 PM   #99
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What I do believe is that atheists should not be so judgmental towards anyone who does believe in God. The insults in this thread and other FYM threads make my teeth clench. Who are you to say that I am not intelligent or that I am childish because I believe in something bigger than me? Do you have any idea what I've gone through in life? Do you have any idea what I've experienced to make me believe that there is God? Since you don't, you have no right to basically say that I am stupid or delusional.
And, just as not all Christians or people of other faiths bash atheists, not all atheists or agnostics -- even in this thread -- bash Christians and people of other faiths. So why are you lumping us all together? If you don't like it, what makes you think we do? You just did what you don't want others doing to you -- you didn't say some atheists, you said atheists. Are you really offended by everyone who said they don't believe in a god in this thread or just some of them?

See how easy it is to generalise? Even when you don't necessarily mean to do so.
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Old 11-30-2009, 02:45 PM   #100
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I'm a Christian but I don't believe atheists should be blamed for moral decay or be seen as immoral people. Just because someone says "I am Christian" or wears a cross around their neck (or rather, any religious symbol around their neck) does not automatically mean that they are more moral than anyone.

What I do believe is that atheists should not be so judgmental towards anyone who does believe in God. The insults in this thread and other FYM threads make my teeth clench. Who are you to say that I am not intelligent or that I am childish because I believe in something bigger than me? Do you have any idea what I've gone through in life? Do you have any idea what I've experienced to make me believe that there is God? Since you don't, you have no right to basically say that I am stupid or delusional.
Great post, Pearl.
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Old 11-30-2009, 02:48 PM   #101
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And, just as not all Christians or people of other faiths bash atheists, not all atheists or agnostics -- even in this thread -- bash Christians and people of other faiths. So why are you lumping us all together? If you don't like it, what makes you think we do? You just did what you don't want others doing to you -- you didn't say some atheists, you said atheists. Are you really offended by everyone who said they don't believe in a god in this thread or just some of them?

See how easy it is to generalise? Even when you don't necessarily mean to do so.
You're right, it is easy to generalize, and I didn't mean to do so. I apologize if I offended anyone.

I am not offended when someone says they don't believe in God. People are going to believe whatever they believe, you can't stop that. I guess what sets me off is when I tell people I do believe in God, I literally get attacked, verbally. Some of the comments - not all, some - in this thread made me feel like I was being attacked even if I wasn't.
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Old 11-30-2009, 02:48 PM   #102
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I feel like we're on the path to this becoming an argument over whether Christians or atheists are more "oppressed" in America.
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Old 11-30-2009, 02:55 PM   #103
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I feel like we're on the path to this becoming an argument over whether Christians or atheists are more "oppressed" in America.


how could it be an argument, though? there's absolutely no evidence that there's any oppression of Christians, whereas there's widespread social antipathy aimed at atheists. now, in FYM, one could make that case, but certainly not in the world.

i suppose one thing that some people are mistaking is criticism of an individual Christian -- like how the poster of this thread gets very smug on topics such as this and is very open about recruitment -- and individual expressions of Christianity in politics and culture with broad criticism at all Christians, everywhere.

i agree that some of the comments on here are unfair. but i also think there's a huge lack of self-awareness on the part of some Christians and that's what people kick back against so hard.
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Old 11-30-2009, 02:59 PM   #104
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how could it be an argument, though? there's absolutely no evidence that there's any oppression of Christians, whereas there's widespread social antipathy aimed at atheists. now, in FYM, one could make that case, but certainly not in the world.

i suppose one thing that some people are mistaking is criticism of an individual Christian -- like how the poster of this thread gets very smug on topics such as this and is very open about recruitment -- and individual expressions of Christianity in politics and culture with broad criticism at all Christians, everywhere.

i agree that some of the comments on here are unfair. but i also think there's a huge lack of self-awareness on the part of some Christians and that's what people kick back against so hard.
I've seen it argued a number of times here that it's hard to be a Christian these days, or something like that.

Like many other arguments around here, they can exist even when logic says they shouldn't.
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Old 11-30-2009, 04:22 PM   #105
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Maybe it's just hard to be a Christian when some people who are not seem to think they know automatically what that makes you. Just a thought.
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