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Old 12-01-2009, 01:00 AM   #136
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As it happened, my disbelief was a tremendous advantage for me. I guess it provided a sense of closure. That was it. The end. That finality made a big difference. I can't speak for anybody else's religious beliefs, but those I had held would not have provided such a solid sense of closure, and would have made the grieving stage more prolonged.
I can understand this perspective.
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Old 12-01-2009, 05:23 AM   #137
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I would say my experience was similar to how Axver described his. But grieving is a very personal process, as is losing a close one, and there is no right or wrong way. If faith helps, that's a good thing. If non-faith helps, it's good too.
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Old 12-01-2009, 06:06 AM   #138
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My best friend for the last 10 years had his dad pass away early this morning from cancer. I really don't care to join the current debate, but I just want to add that I can't imagine NOT relying on a higher power at these times in my life, and seeing how my friend and his brothers and their now widowed mother have done the same through their whole lives, especially the past few months, and NOT want that in my own life.

I guess I feel that if it's not for you, it's not for you, and I won't spend too much time trying to tell you otherwise if you really don't want to hear it. But I think I speak for hundreds of millions when I say it really is an amazing thing to experience.
Sorry for your loss, but I do feel like you're mixing some stuff up.
I've gone through plenty of losses close in the family, and I'm still here. Without relying on some god whatshowever.
It's not about relying on a god, it's about keeping hope. And that is what religion is to most people, it provides hope when they need to.
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
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Old 12-01-2009, 07:39 AM   #139
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Several reasons




4. It can be used as tool to take advantage of its followers:

- The Crusades
- Mass suicides, e.g. People's Temple
- Sexual Abuse
- Tithing
- Inquisition

5. Christianity is intolerant.
These examples do not fall into my personal view of Christianity. In fact, it upsets me that these examples have to be considered when thinking of Christianity, which they do, because they were done in the name of this religion.

The idea that Christianity is intolerant is also frustrating to me because again, it is true. I guess my thinking on this isn't that I have to fall in line. Instead, I believe that as I become more involved in my church community, maybe I will ruffle some feathers by voicing my opinions on ideas that are mostly not tolerated in the church.

But I do apologize that the religion I follow even has to be linked to these ridiculous examples.
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Old 12-01-2009, 07:50 AM   #140
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But I do apologize that the religion I follow even has to be linked to these ridiculous examples.
Most of them have some sort of ridiculousness associated with them. The followers are only human. As are the atheists/agnostics.
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Old 12-01-2009, 08:24 AM   #141
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meh, it's a tangled web, history. asking a modern christian to apologise for the Crusades is like asking a social democrat to apologise for Lenin. The connection is about as nominal.
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Old 12-01-2009, 09:41 AM   #142
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...and I'm still here.
...until you're not...
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Old 12-01-2009, 10:57 AM   #143
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re-reading this, it's clear to me that i read 2861U2's post too quickly late last night -- i didn't realize that the death had just happened that morning, i assumed more time had passed.

i believe my question was respectfully presented, and i think it's an entirely relevant question, and it seems that several in the thread have understood the question in the way in which it was intended, however, had i not been lazy and read more closely, i would not have asked it. it probably is too directly worded for the time.

so my apologies to 2861U2.
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Old 12-01-2009, 01:28 PM   #144
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meh, it's a tangled web, history. asking a modern christian to apologise for the Crusades is like asking a social democrat to apologise for Lenin. The connection is about as nominal.
Agreed. However, when considering that Christianity is the world's most prominant religion, history shows that it was spread more through political/cultural/social dominance and blood not love and truth. That's not meant to be a slam, it just is what it is.

Iron Horse, what ARE you a Christian?
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Old 12-01-2009, 01:41 PM   #145
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Agreed. However, when considering that Christianity is the world's most prominant religion, history shows that it was spread more through political/cultural/social dominance and blood not love and truth. That's not meant to be a slam, it just is what it is.


what do you mean by "prominent"? the most believers?

if you mean that the believers have more influence that's probably more to do with the wealth of North America and Europe, as well as their willingness to plunder much of the rest of the world (often using said Christianity as justification).
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Old 12-01-2009, 02:10 PM   #146
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history shows that it was spread more through political/cultural/social dominance and blood not love and truth.
You may want to take another look at the first several centuries of Christianity. The blood was that of Christians.
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Old 12-01-2009, 02:15 PM   #147
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You may want to take another look at the first several centuries years of Christianity. The blood was that of Christians.
Yes, exactly. Back when they were preparing their hearts for the arrival of the kindgom, believing that Jesus would return like a thief in the night. Back when they believed they could live separately from the outside world because they were here merely temporarily and as such there was no motivation to revolt against the polytheists (compare with the Jews who did revolt) or to fight the Romans.

Somewhere along the line they then decided that they should in fact legislate and now bring up the Bible anytime you talk about social progress as their justification for how secular law should be formed.

Interesting.
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Old 12-01-2009, 02:23 PM   #148
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Had I not had strong power but sacred expeiences testifying of the reality of Christ, His divine mission, atonement and sacrifice, I think Buddahism would be the way to go.


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Old 12-01-2009, 02:27 PM   #149
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Yes, exactly. Back when they were preparing their hearts for the arrival of the kindgom, believing that Jesus would return like a thief in the night. Back when they believed they could live separately from the outside world because they were here merely temporarily...
Interesting.
This was mostly true until about 100 AD. After then, it was evident that Jesus' return could come any day - or not for a long, long time.

However, after Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire, things got a bit ugly...
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Old 12-01-2009, 03:50 PM   #150
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I think Buddahism would be the way to go.


there's a lot to admire about Buddhism, and i'd pursue it more had i more time.
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