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Old 04-27-2010, 09:05 AM   #76
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Are you being sarcastic?

No Because I think in general even college age women would not be into casual relationships with other women, that there would have to be much more of an emotional connection there. So if you can't find that with a man...

I thought that was the whole premise
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Old 04-27-2010, 09:25 AM   #77
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So let's discuss an article about male hedonism. Yolland's point is well-taken; it is less likely for men to be criticized for irresponsible or objectifying sexual activity.

That doesn't mean that such activity shouldn't be criticized, however.


i fully agree with you here. it's the double-standards when it comes to such behavior that's the issue.

i've also watched most of Season 2 of Mad Men over the past 48 hours, so my mind is certainly awash in the (gorgeously art directed) dramatization of precisely these double standards.

however, i'd ask you this: do you think it's possible that some people enjoy and feel good about promiscuous sex? that this, for them, is healthy sexuality? that they're not interested in one monogamous partner for life? that the bonds of monogamy are impossible for them to live under?

and what if that person were a woman?

i start to push back when we go about trying to proscribe only one ideal, acceptable form of sexuality. in my recent travels for my job, i found myself in a very strange place where ... well, let's just say that an unequal power dynamic between sex partners was celebrated and explored. again, this was for my job. when i saw this unequal power dynamic in front of me, and it was the male in possession of the power, so to speak, to me, it looked very, very rape-y. in fact, and i'll confess, much heterosexual sex -- especially as dramatized in the past -- looks very rape-y to me, and makes me uncomfortable.

however, upon a long discussion with an expert in said unequal power dynamics, i began to realize that the submissive partner actually has the power, because she (in this situation) had the power to give, and it was hers to take away, and perhaps she enjoys being the submissive in that consented to situation. and that, ultimately, my powerful reaction to that situation (and to many depictions of heterosexual sex in general) are really noble, well-intended, but ultimately sexist expressions of patriarchal concern for weak females who need to be rescued. likely by me.

what i am ultimately saying is that many of our noblest impulses in regards to what is and what isn't healthy sexuality require defining choices for women before they've even had the chance to make them.

this might be difficult to understand because i've been purposefully vague, but the broader point is that female agency -- the choice to be a slut, the choice to be unsettlingly submissive -- can often take on a form that we are uncomfortable with, but it's our reaction to that agency wherein we find the double standards.
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Old 04-27-2010, 10:42 AM   #78
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however, i'd ask you this: do you think it's possible that some people enjoy and feel good about promiscuous sex? that this, for them, is healthy sexuality? that they're not interested in one monogamous partner for life? that the bonds of monogamy are impossible for them to live under?
People can do what they like. At the same time, we can't forget that promiscuity has led directly to huge outbreaks of AIDS and other STDs, not just in this country, but throughout the world, particularly in Africa. Not to mention the emotional cost that comes from promiscuity (a friend of mine nearly got divorced last year because his wife had an affair with his best friend). And if you spend time talking to or counseling sex addicts (as I do in my copious amounts of free time -- men, incidentally), you'll find that many people who are driven by promiscuous desires aren't necessarily so by choice.

I may be mistaken in this, but I believe that rates for sexual addiction run much higher in men (it's something like an 80/20 split, I believe). If that's true, the promiscuity that's been touted as a staple of male sexuality -- sex without consequences, and the "freedom" that comes with it -- may in fact be nothing more than an expression of profound sexual dysfunction.
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Old 04-27-2010, 11:05 AM   #79
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People can do what they like. At the same time, we can't forget that promiscuity has led directly to huge outbreaks of AIDS and other STDs, not just in this country, but throughout the world, particularly in Africa. Not to mention the emotional cost that comes from promiscuity (a friend of mine nearly got divorced last year because his wife had an affair with his best friend).
i can agree that irresponsible promiscuity without protection can lead to AIDS, STDs, etc. but the emotional cost is largely dependent upon the individual. and it sounds like your friends are guilty of cheating, not of being promiscuous. you've conflated two very different things there.



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And if you spend time talking to or counseling sex addicts (as I do in my copious amounts of free time -- men, incidentally), you'll find that many people who are driven by promiscuous desires aren't necessarily so by choice.

believe it or not, i do spend time with sex addicts. these are people with a defined problem that controls their behavior to the point where it's interfering with their life. i also know many people who are promiscuous but are not addicts.

a big problem i have, and as i just saw after spending some time in the heart of the Christian sex therapy community, is that any behavior that deviates from the ideal is immediately pathologized. it's way, way too long to get into here, but i know quite a bit about this subject, and i think people are often told that things are a problem when they might not be, and the pain that drives people to do things likely comes from their perceived lack of failure to uphold a specific ideal that has been set out for them. were they given more freedom to find their own path, to find what works best for them, rather than berate themselves for failure.


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I may be mistaken in this, but I believe that rates for sexual addiction run much higher in men (it's something like an 80/20 split, I believe). If that's true, the promiscuity that's been touted as a staple of male sexuality -- sex without consequences, and the "freedom" that comes with it -- may in fact be nothing more than an expression of profound sexual dysfunction.

roughly 97% of identified sex addicts are men. but even the term is controversial. many people would rather call it sexual compulsivity, and it's not defined by the number of partners one has, it's defined as a sexual behavior which really controls the person and isn't seen as a voluntary activity. this is quite different from someone who enjoys a now-and-then anonymous fuck. female sexuality is a controversial issue, and for a women, generally, it's more about her sense of worth and a sense of shame about sex that drives the compulsive behavior.

but what you're doing, nathan, is assuming that if you're promiscuous you're automatically a sex addict. you're placing a preconceived set of values onto something that's much more complex. you're assuming in a patronizing way that someone who is promiscuous assumes no responsibility for their sex lives, and you've used quotes around the word "freedom" when that precisely might be what people are seeking -- that the have the freedom to be sexual when they wish to be. this is not freedom from responsibility, but freedom from shame.

for most credible therapists, the emphasis is being pro-sex, pro-intimacy, and pro-eroticism in the context of what is a healthy relationship for that person. and many people who have problems with sexual compulsivity, it's not because they are too sexual, or had too much sex, but that they actualy don't know enough about sex and sexuality to be able to have a healthy handle on their desires. what they need is good information, and in our sexually immature culture, where we stimulate through advertising and then pathologize and shame, that's difficult to find.
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Old 04-27-2010, 11:08 AM   #80
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At the same time, we can't forget that promiscuity has led directly to huge outbreaks of AIDS and other STDs, not just in this country, but throughout the world, particularly in Africa.
Do you really think promiscuity is the issue in Africa? Not rape, or poor sex education?
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Old 04-27-2010, 11:10 AM   #81
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Do you really think promiscuity is the issue in Africa? Not rape, or poor sex education?


or untreated chanchroid. it's very much a health issue rather than an addiction issue.
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Old 04-27-2010, 11:47 AM   #82
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and it sounds like your friends are guilty of cheating, not of being promiscuous. you've conflated two very different things there.
This reminds me of the propensity (is that the right word? ) of people to throw around the word "slut" at a woman who's not necessarily promiscuous.

I mean, you have young girls who are just mean and nasty calling each other slut, even though maybe there's only one sexual partner involved.

Or Jordin Sparks at the Grammys some years ago, responding to the host's crack about "promise rings" saying that "not everyone wants to be a slut."

That's so maddening - having sex does not make one a slut. Nor does it make one promiscuous. It's that whole virgin/whore complex again - there IS indeed a middle ground between being a virgin and bing a slut.

Not implying that this is what nathan is saying, but that comment made me think of this.
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Old 04-27-2010, 12:26 PM   #83
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would we want a world where slut is a meaningless term.

or,

a world where slut applies to both genders.
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Old 04-27-2010, 02:17 PM   #84
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a world where slut applies to both genders.
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Old 04-27-2010, 02:30 PM   #85
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i wish someone would apply the word slut to me
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Old 04-27-2010, 03:30 PM   #86
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would we want a world where slut is a meaningless term.

or,

a world where slut applies to both genders.
is slut a bad thing?

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maybe not

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i wish someone would apply the word slut to me
I remember having a discussion about this word

I asked what it meant

the reponse was:

"Anyone that gets more sex than me!"

(just thought I'd throw that in)
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Old 04-27-2010, 03:40 PM   #87
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Do you really think promiscuity is the issue in Africa? Not rape, or poor sex education?
I think the lack of contraception is the biggest issue, which has less to do with ignorance about it and more to do with religious ideas about it.

Yes, although "poor sex education" could be said to be tied to the ignorance that religion breeds, I am not sure poor sex education is literally the problem. More poor choice of dogma. I don't doubt that there are millions of Africans who know precisely what contraceptives are and choose not to use them because of religious reasons.

Not trying to try play semantics here, honestly, I think Nathan is basically right. Because of the chosen dogma, the issue falls to promiscuity. Blame the Pope, I guess.

Also, just how prevalent is rape among African men? Seems to be quite a generalization on the surface. I can't imagine that it occurs on a great enough scale to trump general 'fuckin' 'cuz it feels good'.
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Old 04-27-2010, 04:47 PM   #88
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I think women, teenagers in particular have taken a lot of power away from the word slut, and have embraced it like the word 'bitch' I mean obviously it can still be thrown out there wit malice and intent but not with the fury and disgust of years gone by. This probably goes hand in hand with our more liberal attitudes towards sex and sexualisation of basically everything, but still and forever there will never be equality between the sexes when its comes to sex.
If a girl is 'sleeping around' its always because of some 'issue' people bandy around like se's been hurt from some guy or she has daddy issues or she is emotionally stunted or something.
I think people both and women believe that we see sex differently. To men its almost a primal urge with no emotion attached to it other then pure natural instinct while for a woman its a much more emotional event and therefore there seems something wrong with our wiring if we go off willy nilly and have sex all over the place.
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Old 04-27-2010, 04:47 PM   #89
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would we want a world where slut is a meaningless term.
I may get flamed for this, but I think promiscuous behavior needs to be condemned somehow. To me, sleeping with a total stranger every weekend seems sleazy.



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a world where slut applies to both genders.
I agree with this. It's the old problem of a guy sleeping with 100 women he's a proud man, when a woman sleeps with 100 guys she's a slut/skank/whore.

Now here's my question: what's the difference between those? The slut, the skank and the whore? If there is any?
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Old 04-27-2010, 04:55 PM   #90
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i wish someone would apply the word slut to me

You slut!
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