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Old 01-31-2009, 04:24 PM   #121
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Jackpine Radical's Journal - When I was a kid, this was a secular nation. What the hell went wrong?

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When I was a kid, this was a secular nation. What the hell went wrong?
Posted by Jackpine Radical in General Discussion
Fri Jan 30th 2009, 12:26 PM
I remember one weird high school biology teacher, a conservative Lutheran, who dealt with evolution by not dealing with it. Unlike the other biology teacher, he used outmoded text book that didn't discuss evolution, and he just never mentioned the word. I'm sure the administration was just waiting for him to retire so they could replace him with someone who had been educated in the 20th century.

Fundamentalists were nonexistent not just on the campus, but in the whole town were I went to college 40 years ago. Theists of any stripe were rare and somewhat apologetic about their eccentric beliefs. "Well, yeah, I believe in God, but not some guy with a long beard or anything. I think the idea of a Hell is old-fashioned and silly." I don't even think we knew the word "fundamentalist," and if we did, we would have thought of it as an insult.

In those days, no politician ever made a big deal of his religion one way or the other, and nobody seemed to care. The only exception was in the case of JFK. There was a certain amount of anti-Catholicism around, and people were afraid that the Pope would end up running the country. Even a lot of atheists were especially anti-Catholic because of the perceived foreign authoritarian structure of the Church.

Then, somewhere along in the 1970's, these Jesus freaks started showing up. I thought that stuff had gone out with the Scopes trial, and maybe lingered in the weird and alien back hills of Tennessee or something. We laughed at them, and thought of them as being on a par with the Hare Krishnas. We didn't take them seriously. We should have. In retrospect, I really don't understand how the country was able to regress that far. I mean, a nice mainstream Protestant who takes the Bible as allegory and appreciates it for its wisdom is one thing, but a crazed Biblical literalist is something else. It just never dawned on me, or reasonably well-educated people of that era, that we could one day have a national government staffed exclusively by graduates of Bible colleges who would deny obvious realities such as evolution, global warming and peak oil, or who would premise their environmental policies on a belief that the Second Coming is around the corner.

Even now, in order to get elected, President Obama had to make all kinds of obeisances and prostrations to the church. I can't imagine anyone having made any kind of big deal at all about the religion of FDR, Truman, Eisenhower or Nixon. (Again Kennedy was an exception because of the Catholicism.)

What the fuck happened? How did it happen? How do we make sure it doesn't happen again?
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Old 01-31-2009, 04:29 PM   #122
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It just never dawned on me, or reasonably well-educated people of that era, that we could one day have a national government staffed exclusively by graduates of Bible colleges who would deny obvious realities such as evolution, global warming and peak oil, or who would premise their environmental policies on a belief that the Second Coming is around the corner.

Even now, in order to get elected, President Obama had to make all kinds of obeisances and prostrations to the church. I can't imagine anyone having made any kind of big deal at all about the religion of FDR, Truman, Eisenhower or Nixon. (Again Kennedy was an exception because of the Catholicism.)

What the fuck happened? How did it happen? How do we make sure it doesn't happen again?
I liked this part. I wonder what the fuck happened too. Like I said in one of the inauguration threads, I cheered out loud amongst my colleagues when Obama acknowledged non-believers.
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Old 01-31-2009, 04:56 PM   #123
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[QUOTE]Where are the Christians?[/QUOTE]

Here's what the Quorum of the 12 Apostles in our Church say about Christ, written in 2000-and I agree:

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THE LIVING CHRIST
THE TESTIMONY OF THE APOSTLES
THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

As we commemorate the birth of Jesus Christ two millennia ago, we offer our testimony of the reality of His matchless life and the infinite virtue of His great atoning sacrifice. None other has had so profound an influence upon all who have lived and will yet live upon the earth.

He was the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament, the Messiah of the New. Under the direction of His Father, He was the creator of the earth. "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1:3). Though sinless, He was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. He "went about doing good" (Acts 10:38), yet was despised for it. His gospel was a message of peace and goodwill. He entreated all to follow His example. He walked the roads of Palestine, healing the sick, causing the blind to see, and raising the dead. He taught the truths of eternity, the reality of our premortal existence, the purpose of our life on earth, and the potential for the sons and daughters of God in the life to come.

He instituted the sacrament as a reminder of His great atoning sacrifice. He was arrested and condemned on spurious charges, convicted to satisfy a mob, and sentenced to die on Calvary's cross. He gave His life to atone for the sins of all mankind. His was a great vicarious gift in behalf of all who would ever live upon the earth.

We solemnly testify that His life, which is central to all human history, neither began in Bethlehem nor concluded on Calvary. He was the Firstborn of the Father, the Only Begotten Son in the flesh, the Redeemer of the world.

He rose from the grave to "become the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20). As Risen Lord, He visited among those He had loved in life. He also ministered among His "other sheep" (John 10:16) in ancient America. In the modern world, He and His Father appeared to the boy Joseph Smith, ushering in the long-promised "dispensation of the fulness of times" (Ephesians 1:10).

Of the Living Christ, the Prophet Joseph wrote: "His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:

"I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father" (D&C 110:3–4).

Of Him the Prophet also declared: "And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!

"For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—

"That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God" (D&C 76:22–24).

We declare in words of solemnity that His priesthood and His Church have been restored upon the earth—"built upon the foundation of . . . apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone" (Ephesians 2:20).

We testify that He will someday return to earth. "And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together" (Isaiah 40:5). He will rule as King of Kings and reign as Lord of Lords, and every knee shall bend and every tongue shall speak in worship before Him. Each of us will stand to be judged of Him according to our works and the desires of our hearts.

We bear testimony, as His duly ordained Apostles—that Jesus is the Living Christ, the immortal Son of God. He is the great King Immanuel, who stands today on the right hand of His Father. He is the light, the life, and the hope of the world. His way is the path that leads to happiness in this life and eternal life in the world to come. God be thanked for the matchless gift of His divine Son.

THE FIRST PRESIDENCY
THE QUORUM OF THE TWELVE





January 1, 2000
My favorite church hymn is this one:

http://www.esnips.com/doc/21fca028-5...ity-our-savior

lyrics:

In humility, our Savior,
Grant thy Spirit here, we pray,
As we bless the bread and water
In thy name this holy day.
Let me not forget, O Savior,
Thou didst bleed and die for me
When thy heart was stilled and broken
On the cross at Calvary.

Fill our hearts with sweet forgiving;
Teach us tolerance and love.
Let our prayers find access to thee
In thy holy courts above.
Then, when we have proven worthy
Of thy sacrifice divine,
Lord, let us regain they presence;
Let thy glory round us shine
.
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Old 01-31-2009, 05:27 PM   #124
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Then, somewhere along in the 1970's, these Jesus freaks started showing up. I thought that stuff had gone out with the Scopes trial, and maybe lingered in the weird and alien back hills of Tennessee or something. We laughed at them, and thought of them as being on a par with the Hare Krishnas. We didn't take them seriously. We should have. In retrospect, I really don't understand how the country was able to regress that far. I mean, a nice mainstream Protestant who takes the Bible as allegory and appreciates it for its wisdom is one thing, but a crazed Biblical literalist is something else. It just never dawned on me, or reasonably well-educated people of that era, that we could one day have a national government staffed exclusively by graduates of Bible colleges who would deny obvious realities such as evolution, global warming and peak oil, or who would premise their environmental policies on a belief that the Second Coming is around the corner.
It's funny how I had Catholic schooling through high school, and I too thought that fundamentalists had gone the way of the Scopes Trial. I was baffled to meet several once I entered university. I also remember that the Christian cult that frightened Andrea Yates into killing her children used to march around my campus. I can't believe anyone ever took those lunatics seriously; we certainly never did.
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Old 01-31-2009, 09:55 PM   #125
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He rose from the grave to "become the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20). As Risen Lord, He visited among those He had loved in life. He also ministered among His "other sheep" (John 10:16) in ancient America. In the modern world, He and His Father appeared to the boy Joseph Smith, ushering in the long-promised "dispensation of the fulness of times" (Ephesians 1:10).
This right here is evidence that Mormonism is not Christianity. Jesus in America? You won't find that in the Bible. Do Mormons have anything to back this up outside of the faith?
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Old 01-31-2009, 10:00 PM   #126
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Your hatred of Mormonism is really quite amusing, why should it matter if a religion is an obvious, rather than obscured, fabrication?
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Old 01-31-2009, 10:12 PM   #127
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Your hatred of Mormonism is really quite amusing, why should it matter if a religion is an obvious, rather than obscured, fabrication?
No, your hatred of religion is amusing. It's all you talk about.
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Old 01-31-2009, 10:26 PM   #128
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This right here is evidence that Mormonism is not Christianity. Jesus in America? You won't find that in the Bible. Do Mormons have anything to back this up outside of the faith?
Don't you get the hypocrisy that's inherent in this statement? You're asking diamond to back up a Mormon belief with something other than faith, when your religion can't do it, either! It's all based in faith, so why is his any less valid than yours is?

(eta - that said, I'm aware that there are historical records stating that Jesus did exist in the time and place stated in the bible - but there are many, many other things taken as factual by Christians that cannot be verified, that are a matter of faith.)
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Old 01-31-2009, 10:35 PM   #129
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Don't you get the hypocrisy that's inherent in this statement? You're asking diamond to back up a Mormon belief with something other than faith, when your religion can't do it, either! It's all based in faith, so why is his any less valid than yours is?
Well without taking sides, one does have a little bit more historical evidence than the other...

They both require faith to believe that Jesus was the Son of God, the miracles, etc... But as far as historical evidence, if a Jesus existed one would have a much harder time proving it happen in America.
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Old 01-31-2009, 10:41 PM   #130
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Well without taking sides, one does have a little bit more historical evidence than the other...

They both require faith to believe that Jesus was the Son of God, the miracles, etc... But as far as historical evidence, if a Jesus existed one would have a much harder time proving it happen in America.
Yes, maybe I was editing at the same time you were posting, but I realized that he was probably talking about that, so I addressed it.

I don't think you have to be a religion hater though to note that sometimes it seems that what's accepted on faith in one religion is held in disdain by another, even though both require a great deal of faith, to begin with.

And now I'll bow out of this thread because it clearly wasn't intended for me.
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Old 01-31-2009, 10:44 PM   #131
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Yes, maybe I was editing at the same time you were posting, but I realized that he was probably talking about that, so I addressed it.

I don't think you have to be a religion hater though to note that sometimes it seems that what's accepted on faith in one religion is held in disdain by another, even though both require a great deal of faith, to with.

And now I'll bow out of this thread because it clearly wasn't intended for me.
I get what you're saying...
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Old 01-31-2009, 10:47 PM   #132
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Well without taking sides, one does have a little bit more historical evidence than the other...
This is true, we have far more corroborating evidence that Joseph Smith actually existed.
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Old 01-31-2009, 10:49 PM   #133
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I'm a Christian...sort of. I was raised as a Episcopalian, but I haven't been to church or been active in about 7 years. I keep on wanting to go back to church, and it keeps on never happening.
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Old 02-01-2009, 01:36 AM   #134
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[QUOTE]
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Originally Posted by coemgen View Post
Jesus in America? QUOTE]


This Non LDS author thinks so. He cites American Indian legends of Quetzalcoatl which were passed down thru the centuries through different tribes. The official account is in the Book of Mormon. There is also evidence of Christ alluding to visiting other sheep in Ancient America in the Bible.

Quote:
He Walked the Americas
Legends from the...

(All information is from "He Walked the Americas" by L Taylor Hansen)




There are a lot of legends that tell of a "prophet" that taught throughout the continents of North and South America. I am just relaying some of those here. Please keep in mind this book was written in 50's and early 60's The bluelettering shows where I have quoted directly from the book.

The first part I wish to take directly from the book and is titled "A Reminder from the Ancients of the Broad Land".....

"We are the Ancients, and our skin is red: with us, the Sacred Color. These are our legends told about the campfires on winter's evenings. When you string them togeher, remember our great pride. Now we are looking down and our feathers are drooping. Tell the legends so that our young men will realize that the ancestor threads run in many directions. Through the tribes we have captured and with whom we have intermarried there is a red thread which runs back to the Red Land long sunken in the Destruction. There is a thread which runs far to the south where the mountain tops touch the sky and the Thunder Bird moves through the lightnings. There is a golden thread which touches Tollan, The Mighty, and beautiful Tula, while through some of our mothers there is a white thread to the words of The Prophet. Tell my young men to listen."--Asa Delugie, War Chief of the Mescallero Apaches.

"This is our book. May you write it in beauty as we have told it in beauty."--Zeahley Tso, Chief of the Navajo.

"There is evidence that some of our ancestors may have come from the ancient trading empire of ChanChan centuries before the rise of the Incan Power in Peru. Tell my people to learn of this great power which once ruled eyes. Tell them to look up and learn."--So-Sah-kuku, Chief Snake Priest of Oraibi.

"This is our book-these legends of Ancient times. They are of the blood which courses through our veins. We of the Seven Tribes of the Black Tortoise once had a Dream of Empire. Yet farther back through the cycles of Time we knew the Great Wakon-Tah, but we forgot His words. These legends should help us to look up and remember."--Shooting Star, of the Hunkpapa Sioux.



~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

The legends that follow are the legends of the Healer. These legends were told by the fireside of a "saintly white teacher," who performed miracles with healing and control over the winds, waters, and other natural items. All describe his eyes as grey-green like the ocean and told stories of the future. His symbol has been woven into blankets, carved on canyon walls, put on pottery and danced in dances. His name has been given to mountains and rivers.

Though the stories are many and spread throughout the Americas, they are broken into bits and pieces, hard to follow and piece together into one tale. His name varied, most names were reflective of his control over the wind and water, as he would request each tribe to name Him as they wished, stating there was no value to a name.

The information I give here is just to let you see the legends for yourself. To determine within yourself if this prophet was actually Jesus, or some other. Is there where Jesus was going when He talked about going to other sheep? He stated in John 10:16 (NIV) to his disciples, "I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd."





*In Etowa, Georgia, the Prophet began to mention the future after a rite of dedication (known today as Thanksgiving). His first prophecy was concerning the Puan people moving northward and a civil war taking place amongst them. His second was as thus, "Farther off there is another invasion. In ships many bearded men are coming from across the Sunrise Ocean. Many are the ships as the snowflakes of winter. I see these men taking the Broad Land; and the Mounds which hold the cests of our cities are for them, alas!, but earth for the taking. They do not respect our trees of cedar. They are but hungry, unenlightened children, and with them the vision closes....Would that I could speak to those bearded farmers! I have tried. They do not hear me. They go on their way like spoiled children, while I return to you and the present here at the Temple at Eseecowah."

At the time of the writing of this book the author stated there were many tribes now in Oklahoma that still remember this prediction, including the Choctaw, Cherokee, Chickasaw and Creek.


*The Shawnee told the author that this came from the Prophet...."Do not kill or injure your neighbor, for it is not he that you injure; you injure yourself. Do good to him, thus adding to his days of happiness even as you then add to your own. Do not wrong or hate your neighbor; for it not he that you wrong: you wrong yourself. Rather love him, for the Great Spirit loves him, even as He loves you."

*I have heard the Cherokee story a couple times now about when the Prophet was with them. It was said that there were many tales, but most were as all the other nations. The one that was unique to the Cherokee was one in which the Healer was troubled by the events of the future. His twelve disciples (all tribes say he chose twelve for his special training!) were following him through the woods for fear any danger would come upon Him. At one point, the Healer came across a fawn that was lost in the woods. The Healer asked him where his mother was? The fawn turned his head and looked down a path. Not far away was the mother, the victim of a huge cat. She had given her life to save her young.

The Healer knelt down beside the dead mother and started stroking the body. As His hand passed over the wounds, they healed up, leaving no marks. The deer then started breathing and rose. The disciples were upset at this and asked Him why he was wasting His energy on the animals. The Pale One said, "There cannot be too many good deeds. Such is the manner of compassion. A lost lamb is my Father's business, as important as saving a nation, if one need not choose between them. More precious in my Father's eyes is a good deed than the most exquisite jewel."


*The Prophet was known to come across a Puant city in the now known area of Oklahoma. It was the Prophet's custom to always take their established temples and change them. He would chose the twelve to teach them the priesthood and then lectured the people. This was again done here as usual. But here, the people wanted to hear about his childhood.

He told them he was born across the ocean where all men had beards. Even in the legends, he told them of his virgin birth and about the bright star that shone over his city of his birth. The heavens opened up and winged beings sang chants of exquisite beauty.

When the University of Oklahoma was digging the Spiro Mound, they found mush pottery showing winged beings singing, and also the hand with the cross through the palm. To them, He was known as Chee-Zoos, the Dawn God, and they whisper of Him about the campfires when no white man can listen. To quote the book, "The love they bear Him is beyond measurement, for well they know He watches over them, and that when their journey here is over, He will meet them in the Land of Shadows, for such was His sacred promise. They smoke the Sacred Peace Pipe in His memory, and blow the smoke to the four directions, knowing that to each man comes his retribution, no matter how flows the river of history. Thus in great pride walks the Red Man, even though now dire poverty stalks him and starvation or hunger sits at his table. In the masklike calm of his expression there smiles a secret satisfaction, a something which to puzzled white men is entirely beyond understanding."


*An interesting story told in the book is about the Great Mound Builders, Decoodah (the last high priest of extinct Elks, translated and recorded by Walter Pidgeon around 1850) described them as tribes that spoke the Algonquin language and they were the Ancients of the country. According to him, these mounds marked the sites of cities. They were a type of writing that recorded history. They were to be read from the inside out and one had a history longer than London. The mounds were thought to have been covered by wood and painted as the Mayans had done. It was here too that the Prophet with his grey-green eyes and golden sandals came. They tell He was the "Great White Robed Master."

In the Spiro Mound in Oklahoma, they found the symbol of the hand with the "T" cross through its center. As aforementioned, this is where they found the pottery with the winged beings. In the Indian Mound of Pittsfield was found three pages of parchment, and according to the author, they are in "old Harvard." One these pages were supposed to be quotations, written in Archaic Hebrew, from the Old Testament. About 8 miles southeas of Newark, the father of Bancroft, the Native American recorder of untold legends, claimed to have the only stone pictograph of the Prophet. About His head, again in ancient Hebrew were written the Ten Commandments. Quoting the author...."His hair and beard are well pictured as well as His flowing toga. It was a small stone, highly polished, an inch and a half thick, eight inches long, four inches on one end to three on the other. This had been placed in a casket completely watertight, andn many feet above it was the burial of the Indian high priest. How many other mounds have been plowed and leveled, and their contents scattered which the Red Men held as holy, planting trees of the sacred cedar upon them to keep them safe through two millenia? True, the invasion of the Serpents from perhaps 700 AD onward, coming up the Mississippi in their long snake-painted dugouts, carrying their sacred fire, brought an end to peaceful living, brought with them war and pillage and the priesthood of the Sacrificers. Yet they turned away from the hills of cedar, seeing the symbols of the Healer."


*The Pawnee tell of a Prophet who taught them of His Father, "The Mighty Holy of the Heavens." He warned them not to forget what they were taught by Him, and when they would return to warfare, they often thought about how He taught them that "war but breeds more carnage." He had also told them about the white men coming. They remember Him as Paruxti and His Father was Tirawa.

The Pawnee claim the Prophet visited them twice, the second time was out of anger. As the story goes, some young men of the Pawnee had gotten together a secret league to attack merchants and make "war" on them. One night the Pawnee was by the Mississippi River and came across a camp of worn out merchants. The merchants had not been aware these young Pawnees had returned to the old ways and thought they were safe. One of the young merchants had stated that he was sad he never got to see the Dawn God. But they smoked the Peace Pipe and went to sleep.

The wild Pawnee then attacked, forced the merchants to carry their own goods back to the bandits' camp. They had a wild night, dancing, yelling and preparing the two men for a sacrifice to the Fire god. One old man protested, pointed to the east where the Morning Star was beginning to rise. But no one paid attention to him and carried on what they were doing. One of the prisoners was already dead and the other was dying. The Pawnee stated, "Let Him come and revive these men! That would be much better magic than stopping a wind storm or walking on water!"

At the point, the eastern sky lit up with fire, clouds reflecting the fire ever brighter. Everyone turned toward the brightened sky and stopped in their tracks. Suddenly there He was among them! They say He shined with a strange radiance, each hair of His head luminescent, a weird glow rippling from His garments and His sea-colored eyes flashing with lightning. He stood staring at the wild Pawnees.

He asked them if this was how they kept His commandments, insulting the Father. "I came to shield you from His anger, or lo, great wind would ignite the forest! And to ashes would be consigned the Pawnee Nation!"

At this point, the prisoner that was still alive called to Chee-Zoos and asked to be released. The Healer told the man he was free and to walk from the fire. Those who were watching saw the man stumble toward the Healer. When he had touched the Healer's robe, the man straightened up and didn't have a mark on him from the fire. The Healer turned to the dead man, telling him that he wasn't yet for the Land of the Shadows. The fire died away and the blackened body stirred. The Healer told him to rise up. The man rose up and was completely healed.

This story is still told sometimes by the elders at the fireside during the winter evenings.


*The "Algonquin of the Eastern Seaboard" tell they received their name for the Dawn Light from the Pale One. They wouldn't name the Prophet as He had asked them to do. They wanted to know what He was called where He grew up and He told them a name that was strange and hard to say. But they tried hard to say it: Chee-Zoos, God of the Dawn Light, basically the same as the Puants.


*The Chippewa remember very well the "pale Great Master." They tell He gave them medicine lodges where the signs and emblems are secret and taken from those across the ocean. And according to the author, they keep this secret to this day.


*The Dakotah (Sioux) say He gave them their rite of baptism and purificition, also many of their lodges. They remember Him talking about the coming of the white man and many other predictions. "We have backslid from His teachings, but to Him we dance the Sun Dance. We remember Great Wakona well." (Speaker not identified.)


*In the times of the Prophet, the place which is now St Louis was once the capital of the Puant nation. The streets of the city actually represented history. Each street started from the Central Hub (which is where the Crest mounds were) and grew outward like a spoke on a wheel. When a dynasty was complete, the line would end and pottery with significant pictures of the period would be placed within the mound. The crest would be closed with a Mound of Extinction. Beyond it, counterclockwise, the new crest would begin.

The capitol buildings stood on the old crest, usually built of logs and beautifully painted. Many crests had been closed at the time of the Prophet and the city was large and many imports and exports went through the streets. The Algonquin remember Him well at the time of His arrival. The fleets coming down the river ceremoniously brought Him, always greeted with flowers. Once the Prophet heard tales of the Sunrise Ocean and the Five Tribes of Warring Nations.

He wanted to go see them immediately, He was so opposed to war and left with the merchants. He came upon the Senecas and called the chiefs into a council. Quoting....."Long He spoke to them on the ways of His Father, as He had throughout the Broad Land, handling the language with great ease. He explained His peace religion, then He asked of them quite simply: what was the reason for their warfare? The Fire Chieftains were embarrassed, for they had long forgotten the reason, if indeed they ever had a reason. Each warrior looked upon the other and none could think of a valid answer.

"Therefore He bound them ceremonially into a never-ending alliance. To each He gave a sacred duty to perform for the alliance, and then He asked them to smoke the Peace Pipe, filled with tobacco and cedar shavings, and to blow the smoke to the four directions making the sign of the Great Cross, which is a holy symbol. Never from that time onward have the Five Nations fought each other, nor has the trust He gave them been cracked and broken.

"At this Council was a Seneca chieftain who was tall, for we are a tall nation. Like many of our people he had a lofty stature, and could easily look down on the heads of the others. Indeed the Prophet was not a short man, but neither was He as tall as the chieftain. The Seneca, seeing that he was the tallest, and could look over the light hair of the Pale God, rose and waited to speak.

"There was a shocked silence. Would he presume to question the Prophet? The chieftain looked upon the Healer.

"'I have been watching you while you were speaking, oh One whom the people call the Dawn God. It is true that you hold a most strange fascination over the minds of men. I know that the people call you the Dawn God. If it is true, then you can prove it. Meet me here in four days in the early morning before the sun has shot his first long red arrow, and we shall stand before this door together. If the first red arrow of the dawn light, touches your hair before it paints my eagle feather, then indeed you are the Dawn God. This I give to you as a challenge. Now, for this day, I have spoken.'

"Everyone turned to look at the Prophet. He sat quite still as if in deep thought. At last He arose. 'Your stand is well taken. I will meet you here before the dawning. When from the Sunrise Ocean arises the golden light of the Dawn Star, I will be standing here before the Great Lodge. I will use up the moments of waiting to talk once more with the people-all who care to hear me. For now, I too have spoken.'

"During the four days the Healer went among the tribes, and though He did not speak of His appointment, everyone knew that He would keep it, for the Great One never broke a promise. Accordingly, at the time appointed, great crowds swarmed about the small mound where the Great Lodge stood open to the eastward. First to climb the mound was the Prophet. As over the horizon arose the first golden shafts of the Dawn Star, the Pale God spoke to the assembled nations. It is said that He always charmed His listeners, but now there was almost a breathless silence. Indeed it seemed the very trees were listening and also the assembled animals of the forest, so softly He spoke and so well did they hear Him, because of the silence that had settled.

"Now the tall chieftain left the others and slowly climbed the small mound, taking his place beside the Prophet. The two eagle feathers in the hair of the chieftain projected well above the head of the Healer, but no sign except a friendly greeting was given by the Pale Heawahsah, who turned and began the Chant of the Dawning. This was a prayer chant He had taught the people, which has long since been forgotten. Everyone started to join in and then, suddenly, a miracle happened.

"Before anyone else saw the sunlight, a golden shaft of radiant beauty came down from some clouds banked high with firelight, and touched the curling hair of the Porphet, diffusing itself like a halo until He stood, a luminous creature, painting all the ground around Him with gold. The people then fell down saying: 'Behold He is indeed the Dawn God who has come to walk among us!' and 'He draws his power from the Star of the Dawning.'

"The tall chieftain, seeing the Great One clothed in gold light, knelt in the dust beside Him and taking the hem of the Prophet's mantle, laid his cheek on the line of creases. I know that you think this sounds something like the Legend of Hiawatha written down by Longfellow, the poet. You are right; there is a resemblance. Once he was our guest and heard us chanting. He liked our stories so well that he kept urging us onward through his interpreter of the language. We told him many stories. When he returned and began to write them, he mixed them all together; but he was not trying to make fun of our legends-he was confused. We still honor him for enjoying the chants, and even trying to get the rhythm of their language. We honor him although Heawahsah never sought a Dacotah maiden. That was a much later hero, who married with a distant nation.

"The meaning of Heawahsah? It is He From Afar Off. It is our name for the Prophet, who drew His great strength from the Dawn Star. All nations know He was of the Dawn Star, and that is why, even now, no nation of the ancient people know as 'red-skins' will ever make war or fight a battle while the Sacred Star of Peace is still shining in the great heavens. They dare not, for it is the Star of the Prophet."

(Note: I no longer know where to reach Big Tree, the Seneca, or even if he is alive. He once told this legend to a child to illustrate the fact that the tallest men are not always the greatest. I hope he will not mind its inclusion here. Since there is a variation of this legend in Bancroft, recorded over a hundred years ago, it seems to be quite authentic to Seneca tradition-Author.)


*In Michigan, according to Decoodah, was the center of the Giant Cross of Waters. The Prophet was known to travel this trail. No tribe was too far, too small, too poor, too war-like. If He heard of a war, He went there. He would call all the chiefs together, divide the lands, give seeds and show how them how to garden. He would teach them His principles. "Do not kill unless you are hungry, and then ask the animal's forgiveness, and explain your great need to him before ever you pull the bow-string." This was one rule that Native Americans ever violated. Before hunting, each tribe would hold a prayer-dance.

He was always called the Feathered Serpent or Eeseecotl among the Algonquins. They tell that He always wore a long white toga, with black crosses embroidered along the bottom, and had golden sandals. Every new town He would arrive in would have a new garment waiting for Him. They would keep the old ones, treasuring them, saying that to touch them would bring healing. During the visits He would train twelve disciples, with one to be their leader, who would take His place when He left to "go about My Father's Business." After He would leave, the grieving people would carve His sign upon the walls of canyons-a hand with a T cross in it.


*While visiting the Chinooks, the Prophet pointed to a plain laying below them, stating that He saw through the cycles of time a great city spread across this plain, named Tacomah. It was to be a white man's city. The Chinooks were confused as to why the white man would name a city after Him, Tla-acomah. He explained that they would use the name of the mountain named after Him, but they would not understand the meaning of the name.

*It is said the hot springs of Tacobya mark the passage of the Healer. In a canyon nearby is the hand with the T cross in it, and near this the Great Cross. It is understood that He traveled to the Havasu, raising one arm in greeting meaning "Peace and Prosperity to you". He then stopped and tapped a large rock with his staff and water gushed out of it. He drank from this sacred water and today it is called the Spring of Tacobya.


*Tacobya went on to the Pueblos where the Empire of Tula, the capital of the peaceful Toltecs. He also went to the Wallapai tribe and gathered the chiefs in a great counsel and redistributed the grainfields. He taught them more clever gardening with melons, squashes, pumpkins, mescal, and beans; he gave them many other plants which have been lost through the ages. He also taught them how to conserve water under the ground.

*He went on to the people of the White Rock. They told Him they had come here after a great war in the south. Their cities had been burnt and they were all that was left of the once great power. They were sad in their hearts and the Prophet told them of another nation that had to flee oppression in days long gone. Then He showed them the beauty of their land and taught them how to garden well.

As He was leaving the Pueblos, He told them, "In truth I give to you a promise. Keep you my precepts, forsake all warfare and you shall ever have my blessing even beyond White Man's coming, and woe to the hands that are raised against you...If to my teaching you are faithful, and to show that you have lived each day rightly, leave alight at night burning against the time I will return through the Dawn Light, and lead thee unto My Father's Kingdom." So every night a light is burning in Acoma and other Pueblos among these tribes which we call heathen. From there He moved on.


From here, we move on to the O'Chippewa council and others on Page 2 .


Quote:
John 10:16

International Standard Version (©2008)
I have other sheep that don't belong to this fold. I must lead these also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock and one shepherd.


Quote:
Book of Mormon, III Nephi Chap. 15

21 And verily I say unto you, that ye are they of whom I said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
22 And they understood me not, for they supposed it had been the Gentiles; for they understood not that the Gentiles should be converted through their preaching.
23 And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice—that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost.
24 But behold, ye have both heard my voice, and seen me; and ye are my sheep, and ye are numbered among those whom the Father hath given me.
For those who want to attempt to referee who is to be called Christian in this life, let him do so; I, however will leave that up to Christ.








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Old 02-01-2009, 02:24 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by A_Wanderer View Post
This is true, we have far more corroborating evidence that Joseph Smith actually existed.
Jesus existed (in Roman-occupied Judea, at least). I would have thought that was fairly uncontroversial. This isn't quite King Arthur territory we're dealing with.

His divinity or otherwise, is the controversial part.
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