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Old 02-01-2009, 08:43 AM   #136
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I'm a Christian...sort of. I was raised as a Episcopalian, but I haven't been to church or been active in about 7 years. I keep on wanting to go back to church, and it keeps on never happening.
It will happen when your are ready.

I had a time in my life when I didn't go to church, either. At age twenty five, I decided to attend a church which is close by, where I live. And have been going there ever since.

Don't be so hard on yourself. You are still a Christian.
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Old 02-01-2009, 08:48 AM   #137
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That Jesus existed as a historical figure is an objective fact.

That he was the son of God and divine and all that jazz is a question of believing.

/thread.
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Old 02-01-2009, 10:27 AM   #138
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That Jesus existed as a historical figure is an objective fact.

That he was the son of God and divine and all that jazz is a question of believing.

/thread.
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Old 02-01-2009, 02:13 PM   #139
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Jesus existed (in Roman-occupied Judea, at least). I would have thought that was fairly uncontroversial. This isn't quite King Arthur territory we're dealing with.

His divinity or otherwise, is the controversial part.
It gets more complicated, actually. The nature of the "historical Jesus" is rather murky, depending on who you talk to. Much of this is complicated by the fact that few are interested in an in-depth historical analysis of Israel during the first 70 years of the first century A.D., out of fear of offending Christian beliefs. Once we reach the Roman destruction of Jerusalem, we're allowed to be historical.

The "Jesus" of the present, undoubtedly, is more shrouded in legend than fact, if only by the fact that the beliefs of early Christians (fifth century A.D. and prior) are vastly different than what present Christians believe. At some point, one is forced to chalk it up to faith, and the idea of a "compassionate God," whom one would presume would value the intentions of "faith" itself over the impossibility of humanity getting it all 100% correct.
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Old 02-01-2009, 02:51 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by ybab gnuthca View Post
That Jesus existed as a historical figure is an objective fact.

That he was the son of God and divine and all that jazz is a question of believing.

/thread.
That's pretty damn good. Pretty damn good man!
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Old 02-01-2009, 06:22 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by ybab gnuthca View Post
That Jesus existed as a historical figure is an objective fact.

That he was the son of God and divine and all that jazz is a question of believing.

/thread.
ybab for PM
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Old 02-01-2009, 08:43 PM   #142
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At some point, one is forced to chalk it up to faith, and the idea of a "compassionate God," whom one would presume would value the intentions of "faith" itself over the impossibility of humanity getting it all 100% correct.


I don't think anyone has it 100% correct, including me.

What are some the differences between early Christianity and how it is practiced today?
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Old 02-01-2009, 10:25 PM   #143
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What are some the differences between early Christianity and how it is practiced today?
The Church bore the name of Christ.
Infants were not baptized.
There were 12 Apostles.
Members were baptized by immersion.
Those that officiated were called to do so by those who had Priesthood Authority and once one Apostle was removed or died another was called by the Apostles with Priesthood authority.
The Church claimed direct revelation from God.
Priesthood bearers in the Church healed people.
The Church practiced baptism for the dead.
The Church practice laying on of hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost.
The Church taught that God and Jesus were 2 seperate and distinct indivuals.
No paid ministry.
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Old 02-01-2009, 11:02 PM   #144
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The Church bore the name of Christ.
Infants were not baptized.
There were 12 Apostles.
Members were baptized by immersion.
Those that officiated were called to do so by those who had Priesthood Authority and once one Apostle was removed or died another was called by the Apostles with Priesthood authority.
The Church claimed direct revelation from God.
Priesthood bearers in the Church healed people.
The Church practiced baptism for the dead.
The Church practice laying on of hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost.
The Church taught that God and Jesus were 2 seperate and distinct indivuals.
No paid ministry.
Don't forget the magic spectacles and special underwear.
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Old 02-01-2009, 11:12 PM   #145
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Don't forget the magic spectacles and special underwear.
The spectales were called the Urim and Thummim:

Lev. 8: 8; Num. 27: 21; Deut. 33: 8; 1 Sam. 28: 6; Ezra 2: 63; Neh. 7: 65;

Cerimonial robes and garments were worn in Temples at the time of Christ and are now worn in LDS Temples today.

Any other smart alec comments?

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Old 02-01-2009, 11:50 PM   #146
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The Church bore the name of Christ.
Infants were not baptized.
There were 12 Apostles.
Members were baptized by immersion.
Those that officiated were called to do so by those who had Priesthood Authority and once one Apostle was removed or died another was called by the Apostles with Priesthood authority.
The Church claimed direct revelation from God.
Priesthood bearers in the Church healed people.
The Church practiced baptism for the dead.
The Church practice laying on of hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost.
The Church taught that God and Jesus were 2 seperate and distinct indivuals.
No paid ministry.
And they kept the seventh day Sabbath. . .

I know what my church says about the early Christian church, and I had a pretty good idea what your church says. Not to dismiss your post, but I'm interested in what Melon has to say. . .not that he's the final word or anything, but he usually has interesting historical stuff I haven't heard before. Whether I buy it (or my church's or your's for that matter) is a sepreate issue.
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Old 02-02-2009, 08:24 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by diamond View Post
The Church bore the name of Christ.
Infants were not baptized.
There were 12 Apostles.
Members were baptized by immersion.
Those that officiated were called to do so by those who had Priesthood Authority and once one Apostle was removed or died another was called by the Apostles with Priesthood authority.
The Church claimed direct revelation from God.
Priesthood bearers in the Church healed people.
The Church practiced baptism for the dead.
The Church practice laying on of hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost.
The Church taught that God and Jesus were 2 seperate and distinct indivuals.
No paid ministry.
Thank you diamond for the information.
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Old 02-02-2009, 01:26 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by maycocksean View Post
And they kept the seventh day Sabbath. . .

I know what my church says about the early Christian church, and I had a pretty good idea what your church says. Not to dismiss your post, but I'm interested in what Melon has to say. . .not that he's the final word or anything, but he usually has interesting historical stuff I haven't heard before. Whether I buy it (or my church's or your's for that matter) is a sepreate issue.
I was always curious about the Sabbath and if their was a new one with the ressurection-as claimed by the majority of Christian faiths.

That said as outside of the box as my Faith is, I feel that God or Angels would have told Joseph to have services on Saturday instead of Sunday. It would have been a small feat to have clued Joseph in and some of his associates that were often visited and ministered by Christ and different Angels for doctrinal matters in the early days of our church.

Regarding Melon and what is belief structure is, I know he has posted he is conflicted with Catholism.

I'm not sure if he believes in the literal ressurection and accessenion of Christ for that matter; perhaps he could clarify.

In the end it doesn't matter, this scripture comes to mind-some of Apollos, some of Sean, some of Melon:



12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?


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Old 02-02-2009, 02:31 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by diamond View Post
The Church bore the name of Christ.
Infants were not baptized.
There were 12 Apostles.
Members were baptized by immersion.
Those that officiated were called to do so by those who had Priesthood Authority and once one Apostle was removed or died another was called by the Apostles with Priesthood authority.
The Church claimed direct revelation from God.
Priesthood bearers in the Church healed people.
The Church practiced baptism for the dead.
The Church practice laying on of hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost.
The Church taught that God and Jesus were 2 seperate and distinct indivuals.
No paid ministry.
Early Christianity did NOT baptize the dead and it still doesn't today. That is a Mormon practice. It was a cultic practice some at the church at Corinth, often referred to as Crazy Corinth, were into, but it isn't something the Bible promotes or talks about anywhere else. The Corinthians were doing all kinds of crap and Paul went there to straighten them out. The city of Corinth was filled with paganism, and many of those practices seeped into the church. In 1 Corinthians 15, where the verse Mormons claim promotes baptizing the dead, he is simply using their practice to help them better understand the Resurrection, which they didn't see as bodily. If you read the book, you'll find the church had all kinds of issues. So, modeling practices after the Corintian church isn't the best idea. It doesn't surprise me that the Mormon church does this though.

The Holy Spirit and spiritual gifts do not come on by the laying of hands, you have the Holy Spirit the moment you give your life to Christ.

The church has never taught that God and Jesus are separate Gods. Again, this is a Mormon teaching. Jesus, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons, but one God.

These are just a few of the numerous differences between Mormonism and Christianity. That's why I brought up the question I did earlier — the title of the thread is "Where are the Christians?" Mormonism is not a form of Christianity.
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Old 02-02-2009, 02:42 PM   #150
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Early Christianity did NOT baptize the dead and it still doesn't today. That is a Mormon practice. It was a cultic practice some at the church at Corinth, often referred to as Crazy Corinth, were into, but it isn't something the Bible promotes or talks about anywhere else. The Corinthians were doing all kinds of crap and Paul went there to straighten them out. The city of Corinth was filled with paganism, and many of those practices seeped into the church. In 1 Corinthians 15, where the verse Mormons claim promotes baptizing the dead, he is simply using their practice to help them better understand the Resurrection, which they didn't see as bodily. If you read the book, you'll find the church had all kinds of issues. So, modeling practices after the Corintian church isn't the best idea. It doesn't surprise me that the Mormon church does this though.

The Holy Spirit and spiritual gifts do not come on by the laying of hands, you have the Holy Spirit the moment you give your life to Christ.

The church has never taught that God and Jesus are separate Gods. Again, this is a Mormon teaching. Jesus, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons, but one God.
A close study of Paul's letters to the saints of Corinth indicates that they were struggling with believing in the ressurection and he asked why they were baptizing for the dead. Paul didn't forbid them to give of the practice of baptizing for the dead- because it was legitmate practice.

Christ was baptized by immersion by John who had the Priesthood Authority and set the perfect example "to fulfill all righteousness" -we are counseled to do the same.

We believe in the Godhead, which is found in the Bible. You believe in the Trinity and it isn't in the Bible, but a word manufactured by men - centuries after the Bible was written.

There are other Christians that do not subscribe to the Trinity notion but believe in Christ as the Savior and Messiah and God as the Father-are you going attempt to marginalize them too?

Most of the religous people of Christ's day persecuted Christ and His followers the same way your persecute Mormons.

Your tone is revealing-it isn't Christ like.

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