We're due for a breast feeding discussion

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randhail

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BOSTON --A Harvard student must be allowed extra break time during her nine-hour medical licensing exam so she can pump breast milk to feed her 4-month-old daughter, a Massachusetts appeals court judge ruled Wednesday.

Sophie Currier, 33, sued after the National Board of Medical Examiners turned down her request to take more than the standard 45 minutes in breaks during the exam. She said she risks medical complications, including engorgement and inflammation, if she does not nurse her daughter, Lea, or pump breast milk every two to three hours.

A Superior Court judge last week rejected Currier's request to order the board to give her an additional 60 minutes of break time. Appeals Court Judge Gary Katzmann overturned that ruling, finding that Currier needs the extra break time to put her on "equal footing" with the men and non-lactating women who take the exam.

The board had cited the need to be consistent in the amount of break time given and said other nursing mothers who have taken the exam have found 45 minutes in breaks sufficient.

But Katzmann said that amount of break time was "insufficient" for Currier to nurse her baby, properly express breast milk, eat, drink and use the restroom over the course of the nine-hour exam.

Without extra break time, Currier would have to choose between pumping breast milk and ignoring her bodily functions or foregoing pumping and causing herself significant pain, the judge said.

"Under either avenue, (Currier) is placed at significant disadvantage in comparison to her peers," Katzmann wrote in his 26-page ruling.

Calls to Currier, her lawyer and an attorney for the board were not immediately returned.

Currier, of Brookline, has finished a joint M.D.-Ph.D. program at Harvard University while having two babies in the past two years. She has been offered a residency in clinical pathology at Massachusetts General Hospital beginning in November, but cannot accept it unless she passes the test. Her goal is a career in medical research.

Currier took the exam in April when she was 8 1/2 months pregnant, but failed by a few points. She had planned to take the test again earlier this week, but put it off after Norfolk Superior Court Judge Patrick Brady ruled against her last week.

Currier, who also has a 22-month-old son, already has received special accommodations under the Americans with Disabilities Act for dyslexia and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, including permission to take the test over two days instead of one.

I understand the need for extra time, which she's been given. The NBME has already compromised with her, but it seems like she is just being unreasonable. I've never been a nursing mother, but it seems a little far fetched that if she doesn't breast feed every 2 or 3 hours that she'll be in pain. If that's true, then she must never sleep for longer amounts of time than that. If she had just passed the exam the first time, then there would have been no issue. :shrug:
 
They used the word "engorgement". Cool!


Seriously, if she'd only passed the bloody test the first time, this would've never happened.
Also, when she goes to sleep at night, maybe she wakes up every 2 or 3 hours and pumps her breasts. Or maybe her husband does it for her.
 
I guess it depends whether your attitude towards her situation is more characterized by "Put up or shut up--lots of nursing moms do, and it's just a one-time test" or "No one should be forced by their school or employer to accept significant physical discomfort as the price of nursing while studying or working, period."

As far as whether her characterization of her needs is unreasonable, that's hard to say, because every mother's experience is different. For many women, waiting 4-1/2 hours for a break long enough to pump milk falls into the 'somewhat unpleasant, but doable' category. Others would be in quite a bit of pain by that point. If the woman has a history of mastitis, and has typically been nursing her baby every 2-3 hours, then she definitely shouldn't wait that long, whether the pain is bad or not. Just because she normally nurses every 2-3 hours during the day doesn't necessarily mean she does so at night--if the baby is routinely sleeping through most of the night, but still wants to nurse frequently during the day, then the mother's lactation cycle will adapt to that, though that doesn't happen instantaneously or at will. Similarly, with pumping, different women release milk at different rates. For some, 15 minutes with a standard hospital-grade electric pump is perfectly adequate; for others, it takes 30. (There are a lot of working nursing mothers whose "lunch break" consists of hurrying to the handicapped stall in the nearest public restroom, sitting on the toilet, and pumping with one hand while eating a sandwich with the other so as to make it back to their workstation in time.)

My guess is that anyone who's managed to simultaneously do med school and earn a PhD while giving birth to and parenting two children is not the lazy whiner type. But again, every woman's body is different and who's to say previous nursing moms who took the test didn't successfully handle comparable levels of discomfort and time stress without major issues. It just depends on whether you think their experiences, or her and her doctor's estimation of her own particular needs, should be the yardstick.
 
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I was thinking of the news story where the mothers had a nurse in protest at an Applebee's after one woman was asked to cover her breast- and therefore the baby's head- with a towel. She said it was cruel to the baby. I disagree. Nursing mothers in public are not ok IMO and if they are, might as well let every girl and woman expose their breasts in the mall. I know a lot of people who nurse and they squeeze the milk into bottles for when they have to be in public. I don't want to sound rude but it's gross. I don't want to be in a resturant and see some woman's boob getting sucked, which is essentially what it is. How is a kid sitting in that resturant seeing a naked boob like this okay and not in a Playboy? It's still there, and doesn't belong in public view, sorry. Bring a bottle or cover with a towel in the name of decency.
 
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Butterscotch said:
I was thinking of the news story where the mothers had a nurse in protest at an Applebee's after one woman was asked to cover her breast- and therefore the baby's head- with a towel. She said it was cruel to the baby. I disagree. Nursing mothers in public are not ok .

So nursing mothers should be forced to stay in while the child is still at the breast feeding stage? Wow, how very 1950's of you.:|

Just given some of the things you said in your post, you know very little about breast feeding.

Please tell me the original reason for breasts. Playboy or feeding? Don't answer that, it will just make your logic look ridiculous.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


So nursing mothers should be forced to stay in while the child is still at the breast feeding stage? Wow, how very 1950's of you.:|

Just given some of the things you said in your post, you know very little about breast feeding.

Please tell me the original reason for breasts. Playboy or feeding? Don't answer that, it will just make your logic look ridiculous.

You look ridiculous because you obviously ignored the rest of my post which said

I know a lot of people who nurse and they squeeze the milk into bottles for when they have to be in public.

and nothing looks more ridiculous than a bare boob hanging out in public. There is no problem as long as they cover it up, if they refuse to use the breast pump and temporary bottles as my friends and coworkers do.

I wonder if most men even realize there is such a thing as a breast pump and bottles of breast milk saved and used in public. It's a very popular practice. Also working mothers use this practice so their babies can have their breast milk while at the sitter's. There are other things a woman can do.
 
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A "woman's boob getting sucked" is a natural human function, there's nothing sexual or "dirty" about it. It's a breast and it's breastfeeding. We have had that discussion here several times, a search could bring up a few threads. Some women pump milk for convenience, and maybe some are uncomfortable breastfeeding in public. But that is their choice, just like it is the choice of others to do it. I have never seen a woman do it in public while baring her entire breast, most women are extremely discreet about it.

I believe this woman does have mastitis, it was on a tv news story I saw about this case.
 
Breastfeeding in public has absolutely zero to do with the case at hand--let's leave that for other threads, please.
 
Butterscotch said:


You look ridiculous because you obviously ignored the rest of my post which said

I know a lot of people who nurse and they squeeze the milk into bottles for when they have to be in public.


Well that was the comment that made me think you didn't know much about breast feeding, for breast pumps are the norm these days, and not just "sqeezing it into bottles." But I'm glad you know something about it. You still don't seem to understand the original purpose of breasts and the issues dealing with this paticular case.
 
yolland said:
My guess is that anyone who's managed to simultaneously do med school and earn a PhD while giving birth to and parenting two children is not the lazy whiner type. But again, every woman's body is different and who's to say previous nursing moms who took the test didn't successfully handle comparable levels of discomfort and time stress without major issues. It just depends on whether you think their experiences, or her and her doctor's estimation of her own particular needs, should be the yardstick.

I respect what she's managed to accomplish, but it seems like she is not willing to give an inch here. Mutliple concessions have been made to her such as the extended breaks and taking the test over two days, but for whatever reason this isn't good enough. I think that most people would've been satisfied with the concessions. So it's not a case of the NBME not caring about her case or being ironclad in their policies.

Another thing, what's wrong with waiting until you can go a little longer without breast feeding to take the test? It may be apples and oranges here, but if someone has a "medical condition" that interferes with taking the test - case of Mono, flu, whatever condition, then they don't take the test at that time. You don't go asking for all these concessions.

Granted, I have no idea what her medical condition, but this case just doesn't sit well with me. I fully admit I'm judging her here, but she has a history of milking her conditions for everything it's worth. She had students read her textbooks to her at MIT, getting the extra days, etc. It baffles me how she already has a residency at Harvard lined up since she's already failed this test once - a test to demonstrate minimum competentcy. I'd also like to know why, with having such bad ADHD, she's going in pathology - it's one of the most tedious specialties out there.

If she takes this test in the next couple of weeks and got all the time she needed, it would be some poetic justice if she failed it again because she spent too much time on this case rather than studying.
 
randhail said:


I respect what she's managed to accomplish, but it seems like she is not willing to give an inch here. Mutliple concessions have been made to her such as the extended breaks and taking the test over two days, but for whatever reason this isn't good enough. I think that most people would've been satisfied with the concessions. So it's not a case of the NBME not caring about her case or being ironclad in their policies.

So what would you suggest?


randhail said:

Another thing, what's wrong with waiting until you can go a little longer without breast feeding to take the test? It may be apples and oranges here, but if someone has a "medical condition" that interferes with taking the test - case of Mono, flu, whatever condition, then they don't take the test at that time. You don't go asking for all these concessions.

Yeah, it is apples and oranges. Breastfeeding isn't contageous...
randhail said:

Granted, I have no idea what her medical condition, but this case just doesn't sit well with me. I fully admit I'm judging her here, but she has a history of milking her conditions for everything it's worth. She had students read her textbooks to her at MIT, getting the extra days, etc. It baffles me how she already has a residency at Harvard lined up since she's already failed this test once - a test to demonstrate minimum competentcy. I'd also like to know why, with having such bad ADHD, she's going in pathology - it's one of the most tedious specialties out there.

If she takes this test in the next couple of weeks and got all the time she needed, it would be some poetic justice if she failed it again because she spent too much time on this case rather than studying.

What's her history of milking her conditions? I didn't see anything about people having to read to her, etc... Normally people with ADHD can't take their meds while pregnant or breastfeeding.
 
It's hard to tell, having never breastfed, but 45 minutes sounds reasonable to me to finish doing that and eat. These are stressful exam times. My friends who sat the Bar ate their sandwiches in 15 minutes. It's not a day where you'll do anything in a leisurely way. So I don't really understand why she'd need 60 minutes, honestly. I've never breastfed, but I've seen plenty of women who have, and it didn't take that long. And honestly if she needs to finish eating in 10 minutes and that's quick, well, yeah suck it up, in a sense. I just don't really see that as a reason to litigate to the appellate level - what a waste of our judiciary, honestly.

Maybe somebody here who has breastfed can comment on the timing of it (is it doable in 45 minutes with a quick lunch), because I really have no way to evaluate.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:

So what would you suggest?

What's her history of milking her conditions? I didn't see anything about people having to read to her, etc... Normally people with ADHD can't take their meds while pregnant or breastfeeding.

Honestly, I feel like the NBME has done enough. So either she take what they gave them or wait until she can go longer periods without breast feeding. It's not like she needs to take this today because residency doesn't start until July 1.

Sophie Currier made it through MIT -- brilliantly -- in part because the school paid other students to read books to her and share their class notes.

By the time she was in graduate school, MIT provided computers that scanned books and read them aloud to Currier; she was also allowed extra time on exams.



http://www.boston.com/yourlife/heal...hyperactive_adults_need_help_too/?page=3[url]
 
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Thanks for the clarification...

To be honest I really can't say anything more, she seems to have a lot going against her and seems to be doing it all at one time... Maybe she doesn't need to recognise the limits she has here...
 
Butterscotch said:
I was thinking of the news story where the mothers had a nurse in protest at an Applebee's after one woman was asked to cover her breast- and therefore the baby's head- with a towel. She said it was cruel to the baby. I disagree. Nursing mothers in public are not ok IMO and if they are, might as well let every girl and woman expose their breasts in the mall. I know a lot of people who nurse and they squeeze the milk into bottles for when they have to be in public. I don't want to sound rude but it's gross. I don't want to be in a resturant and see some woman's boob getting sucked, which is essentially what it is. How is a kid sitting in that resturant seeing a naked boob like this okay and not in a Playboy? It's still there, and doesn't belong in public view, sorry. Bring a bottle or cover with a towel in the name of decency.

:huh:
 
A couple of things that have me confused are:

1) is she asking for 60 minutes total for breaks, or is she asking for 60 additional minutes? The first article randhail posted stated she was asking for 60 additional minutes -- more than double what everyone else gets.

2) the same article mentions the 45 minutes in breaks is for a nine-hour exam on one day. But at the end of the article it notes she already has "permission to take the test over two days instead of one" so that should cut the time spent to an average of four and a half hours each day -- not nine hours in one day.

If she was taking the exam over the course of one day I could certainly see where 45 minutes in breaks would make her extremely rushed, but if she gets to take the exam over two days I don't see why she should need nearly an hour's worth of breaks each day (that is if she is indeed asking for an additional 60 minutes in breaks). If the test and breaks are evenly spaced (and I realise they probably aren't in these tests) that would mean she would spend two hours and 15 minutes doing the test, then get a 50 minute break, then test for another two and a quarter hours, then quit for the day. Repeat the next day. That seems like a lot of time in breaks to me.

I don't think 60 minutes in breaks -- regardless of whether the test is over one day or two -- is excessive, but an hour and 45 minutes in breaks does seem to be pushing it to me. Especially if she will be taking the test over two days.
 
OK, I have not ever breast fed, lol, but I have seen plenty of women do it and I've fed many many babies breast milk from their own mothers. I've never seen someone breast feed for longer than 45 minutes nor have I ever had a baby with me drink breast milk from the bottle for longer than 45 minutes. A year ago, some of the women I work with had babies and they converted an open office into their breast pumping room. I don't ever recall them needing multiple breaks longer than 45 minutes to pump. I do understand that they have to feed or pump every 2-3 hours but it sounds like she already was getting a break?
 
Speaking on personal experience, I breastfed both my children.
My oldest son seemed to want to nurse every 2 hours or so, for the first couple of months. And yes, I went out to eat, over to friends and family and movies and no one ever knew I was nursing. If someone came up to see the baby, I just politely said give me a few minutes. I didn't have to make a statement, expose myself or make anyone else uncomfortable, I just needed to nurse my child.
I also didn't have to work or go to school and/or take 9 hour test.
With that said, untill he nursed less often, (I think around 3 to 4 months) I had to either wake him up or pump my breast. It hurt like hell and even became feverish. There was no way I could go 4 1/2 hours without doing one or the other because I would seriously "leak". and when "engorged I could shoot milk across a room. No nursing mother wants to go there. :ohmy:
I wasn't trying to do all the things this person is trying to do, but I never nursed longer than 10 to 15 minutes on each side. But most times, it was every 2 1/2 to 3 hours.
she sounds intelligent enough to have known it would be a daunting task.
One just can't expect special treatment these days without someone else suing for the same.
I would be more inclined to protest for changes in a frigging 9 hour test.. period
 
Here's some facts, for anyone curious, or anyone completely ignorant:

Breastfeeding women produce more milk than one who expresses, as the natural action of a feeding baby stimulates production more than an artificial pump.

Some women need up to 30 minutes per side initially. I can speak from experience on this (I could have fed a small African village 3 times a day, honestly). To put this in some kind of perspective for you all, this is around 180ml-220ml of milk PER breast PER pump. If you want a woman to keep that in, then you be the one to tell her. I'll be ducking over here, hiding.

At 4 months old, that baby is at peak feeding requirements. She's a feeding machine!

Mothers should be well hydrated and try to eat something before/during feeding. It's not really ideal to forgo scoffing down some food.

Indra, the article says she wants an additional 60 minutes. I guess that means 1 hour 45 in total? In fairness, I reckon an hour is a good compromise.



---------------------
*edited for bottle size correction
 
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It's a physiological condition-if men had a parallel one I would imagine the same concessions would be made to them. It does seem as if she has had numerous concessions made to her, but since they have all been legal well that's the way it goes. The others are disabilities which I would guess are covered by the ADA.

WCVB

"We were thrilled that a male judge understood and recognized from the papers what it means to be a nursing mother," attorney Lauren Steiller Rikleen said.

Currier's law firm, which took the case pro bono, argued that Currier risked loss of milk supply, infection and pain if she received the typical 45-minute break. The board said that it wouldn't be fair to others taking the test.

"The only people who could say, 'She is looking for an advantage here,' is someone who has no understanding of what is involved in expressing milk," Rikleen said.

An appeals court ruled, "in order to put Currier on equal footing as the male and non-lactating female examinees, she must be provided with sufficient time to pump breast milk and to address the same physiological and other functions to which those examinees are able to attend."

Currier is already getting an extra day to take the test because of disabilities including ADD and dyslexia.

"The case is not about Sophie. The case is about the rights of nursing women to be able to have a level playing field in the workforce," Rikleen said."
 
Doesn't seem like something to get worked up over. Yes she's getting more time than other nursing Mom's who've done it in the allotted 45 minutes, but this just looks like a case of the squeaky wheel getting the grease when you look at in conjunction with the other concessions she's gotten (using others' notes etc).
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


You still don't seem to understand the original purpose of breasts and the issues dealing with this paticular case.

I know what the original posted story was about, but since the title of the thread is 'we are due for a breastfeeding thread' I assumed anything dealing with the subject was fair game so I brought up the Applebee's story.
 
Great thread!:hi5:

My two cents. One exxtra hour is reasonable. My wife, she with the beatiful breasts, says that she agrees with AngelaHarlom on her entire post.

She did have this to add....

If she felt stressed, and was actually feeding the baby verses pumping, the baby could sense it, making it difficult to feed. Babies are smart and know when things are being rushed.

She feels the 60 minutes is more than reasonable....to get the job done in a relaxing way.

My daughter nursed for a year....

My son almost two....and he, the piglet that he is (where does he get it) would nurse 20-30 minutes a breast.
 
Mwaqaahh......Does someone here think that they squirt dirctly into the bottle?

LOLOLOL
 
MrsSpringsteen said:
A "woman's boob getting sucked" is a natural human function, there's nothing sexual or "dirty" about it.

I agree and disgree with this:shifty:
 
Dreadsox said:


I agree and disgree with this:shifty:

Me too, of course it's natural, but it's not okay to be seen in public, other womens' husbands, little kids, old people, etc. I don't see a problem with covering up with a towel, if you MUST do it in public and not at home, and not use a pump and bottle. If it was raining, or cold, or if the sun was in the baby's eyes, you'd cover his head up just walking down the street, so why is it 'tramatizing' to cover up while he's nursing? The baby sucks with its eyes closed anyway. I think covering is a good compromise.
 
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MrsSpringsteen said:
It's a physiological condition-if men had a parallel one I would imagine the same concessions would be made to them.

A little off subject, but I was just thinking about what the name of the sporting event would have been called if men had to do the breast feeding when a child was born.. :wink:
Or how elaborate the breast feeding rooms would be where a man could take the baby on their numerous breast feeding breaks.
Not man bashing, please don't think that but I could see a competiton or two springing up.

Don't mind me, I'm on drugs.
(Wisdom teeth removal - there went my wisdom heehee)
 
Butterscotch said:


Me too, of course it's natural, but it's not okay to be seen in public, other womens' husbands, little kids, old people, etc. I don't see a problem with covering up with a towel, if you MUST do it in public and not at home, and not use a pump and bottle. If it was raining, or cold, or if the sun was in the baby's eyes, you'd cover his head up just walking down the street, so why is it 'tramatizing' to cover up while he's nursing? The baby sucks with its eyes closed anyway. I think covering is a good compromise.

But why is it not OK in public, you haven't given a real reason.

Will this somehow traumatize a kid? Will other husbands automatically not be able to control their urges? Will old people get jealous and become violent?

You don't place a towel over your kids head unless you are Michael Jackson, and we all know how good of a parent he is...
 
Butterscotch said:


if you MUST do it in public and not at home, and not use a pump and bottle.

If you *must* do it in public? Do you expect a nursing mother to stay home until her baby is weaned? You can't really control when your baby is hungry, and if she's feeding every 2-3 hours, chances are she's going to be caught sometime when she's out of the house.
 
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