Vote Suppression vs Vote Fraud - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 10-21-2008, 06:27 AM   #1
Blue Crack Addict
 
Varitek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: on borderland we run
Posts: 16,861
Local Time: 02:55 AM
Vote Suppression vs Vote Fraud

The whole to-do about Acorn and vote fraud by the GOP and McCain really ticks me off ("threatening to topple our democracy" or whatever? please). Here's a link to an excellent article on the topic. Believing in vote fraud may be dangerous to a democracy's health. - By Dahlia Lithwick - Slate Magazine

The gist is that
a) Acorn as an organization isn't seeking to fraudulently register voters although there are some poor incentives in place for some of their workers to do so, and then they try and flag these bad registrations
b) it doesn't matter if Mickey Mouse is registered to vote because he still can't show up and vote, and it doesn't matter if Joe Carpenter registers 70 times, he still can only physically show up and vote once, and
c) actual vote fraud means somebody voting under someone else's name or who shouldn't be voting, and this has been documented very, very rarely in modern history and isn't worth the risk to the individual to get caught on a felony for one vote that won't make much of a difference anyway.


Meanwhile, the GOP is up to some really dirty schemes that are depriving people of their constitutional right to vote. WV electronic vote machines swap votes from Obama to McCain, MN and other states have done ballot purges that are completely illegitimate and over the top (people getting thrown off the rolls for middle initial discrepancies or typos that were some clerk's fault and not theirs), threats that cops will arrest you for outstanding warrants in Philly and other Dem-leaning areas... Then there were the stories in the news a few weeks ago about how some people whose homes have recently been foreclosed on will not be allowed to vote due to their changing addresses. (I am pressed for time so no links now, but I have read about all of these cases in major newspapers.)

Some of these are old tricks which have in the past influenced results of elections (see: FL in 2000). This year the Republicans seem to be ramping up the ol' voter suppression/disenfranchisement, all the while going on and on and on about the non-existent threat of vote fraud (which is really just harmless registration fraud).

A few of my thoughts -

-We know the republicans thrive on fear-mongering, which this obviously is, and that some of the base are selective about what they fear: they are fine with some poor black citizens not getting to vote, and even actively try to achieve this, while running around scared about the outside chance of illegal immigrants or whoever getting to vote. Cognitive dissonance anyone? How the hell is this possible? (yes, I know these people thrive on doublethink in all manner of areas of politics/life.)

-Why haven't the democrats, after seeing vote suppression work in the GOP's favor for the last two elections, been more effective at drawing attention and outrage to the issue, at countering false threats that keep people home on voting day, at challenging the vote purges in the courts more vehemently? This should have been and should be a major focus of financial, legal, and PR resources. It's getting some attention, but I don't feel like enough, given that it could be a major factor in deciding the election or results in some states.

-And even if it doesn't alter the final result, it still sickens me that our democracy can be allowed to be so broken, and in fact can be intentionally vandalized, while some people stand around idly, or even cheer it on.
__________________

__________________
Varitek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2008, 06:40 AM   #2
Blue Crack Addict
 
Varitek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: on borderland we run
Posts: 16,861
Local Time: 02:55 AM
Bob Herbert's with me, didn't see this until after I posted the thread, although it may look like I lifted his main points!

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/21/op...21herbert.html
__________________

__________________
Varitek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2008, 07:28 AM   #3
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,667
Local Time: 01:55 AM
Yeah the Acorn "story" really is pointless. If anyone with a reading comprehension beyond 4th grade would just read past the headline they would realize this "story" has no wings...
__________________
BVS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2008, 08:09 AM   #4
Blue Crack Addict
 
Varitek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: on borderland we run
Posts: 16,861
Local Time: 02:55 AM
Unfortunately Americans have problems both reading past the headlines Fox News jams fairly and balancedly down their throats and reading beyond a 4th grade level.
__________________
Varitek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2008, 09:12 AM   #5
Refugee
 
cydewaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 1,256
Local Time: 03:55 AM
ACORN is a distraction. If people are talking about that, they aren't talking about the thousands of legitimate voters that the republicans are having kicked off the voter rolls. It also gives them a soundbite for when someone mentions voter suppression.

As far as why the dems aren't screaming about the voter suppression from every hilltop, I've been asking myself that since 2000. You'd think with our "liberally-biased media" (ha ha) it would be front page news, yet somehow the networks are for the most part silent.

Funny how that works, eh?
__________________
cydewaze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2008, 09:20 AM   #6
Refugee
 
cydewaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 1,256
Local Time: 03:55 AM
Then there's this

Quote:
Don’t worry about Mickey Mouse or ACORN stealing the election. According to an investigative report out today in Rolling Stone magazine, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and Greg Palast, after a year-long investigation, reveal a systematic program of "GOP vote tampering" on a massive scale.

- Republican Secretaries of State of swing-state Colorado have quietly purged one in six names from their voter rolls.

Over several months, the GOP politicos in Colorado stonewalled every attempt by Rolling Stone to get an answer to the massive purge - ten times the average state's rate of removal.

- While Obama dreams of riding to the White House on a wave of new voters, more then 2.7 million have had their registrations REJECTED under new procedures signed into law by George Bush.
Kennedy, a voting rights lawyer, charges this is a resurgence of 'Jim Crow' tactics to wrongly block Black and Hispanic voters.

- A fired US prosecutor levels new charges - accusing leaders of his own party, Republicans, with criminal acts in an attempt to block legal voters as "fraudulent."

- Digging through government records, the Kennedy-Palast team discovered that, in 2004, a GOP scheme called "caging” ultimately took away the rights of 1.1 million voters. The Rolling Stone duo predict that, this November 4, it will be far worse.

There's more:

- Since the last presidential race, "States used dubious 'list management' rules to scrub at least 10 million voters from their rolls."

Among those was Paul Maez of Las Vegas, New Mexico - a victim of an unreported but devastating purge of voters in that state that left as many as one in nine Democrats without a vote. For Maez, the state's purging his registration was particularly shocking - he's the county elections supervisor.

The Kennedy-Palast revelations go far beyond the sum of questionably purged voters recently reported by the New York Times.

"Republican operatives - the party's elite commandos of bare-knuckle politics," report Kennedy and Palast, under the cover of fighting fraudulent voting, are "systematically disenfranchis[ing] Democrats."

The investigators level a deadly serious charge:

"If Democrats are to win the 2008 election, they must not simply beat McCain at the polls - they must beat him by a margin that exceeds the level of GOP vote tampering."
This one ain't over yet folks.
__________________
cydewaze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2008, 12:29 PM   #7
Blue Crack Distributor
 
corianderstem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 63,718
Local Time: 11:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Varitek View Post
WV electronic vote machines swap votes from Obama to McCain, MN and other states have done ballot purges that are completely illegitimate and over the top (people getting thrown off the rolls for middle initial discrepancies or typos that were some clerk's fault and not theirs), threats that cops will arrest you for outstanding warrants in Philly and other Dem-leaning areas...
This is the shit that really scares me (as well as pisses me off). It's glaringly obvious that there is a LOT that needs to be done to fix the voting process in this country, but people's votes being changed is beyond the pale. Whether or not it's due to actual shenanigans or mechanical error, it's completely unacceptable.

I agree that this ACORN bullshit is just distraction. I would be very surprised if there isn't another fiasco like 2000 after election day. If there is, maybe finally people will take action to work towards actually fixing things so we don't have to go through this every election (or every other election).

A close race is one thing. This sort of thing is another.
__________________
corianderstem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2008, 01:43 PM   #8
Blue Crack Addict
 
Varitek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: on borderland we run
Posts: 16,861
Local Time: 02:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cydewaze View Post
Then there's this



This one ain't over yet folks.
Kennedy did a huge article in Rolling Stone after the 2004 election about the massive voter disenfranchisement that went on in Ohio - massive enough it may have been the tipping point. We'll never know.
__________________
Varitek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2008, 01:45 PM   #9
Blue Crack Addict
 
Varitek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: on borderland we run
Posts: 16,861
Local Time: 02:55 AM
re: a fiasco after election day

We can only hope that Obama will win by enough (in popular vote and EV) that it won't affect anything besides how strong his "mandate" is (if you buy that BS anyway). But there will probably be court battles, and it's ridiculous how much money will be spent. Both sides have lawyers ready in all the potentially controversial states already. Maybe court battles will bring attention to all the flaws/intentional vandalism?

But it's still just outrageous in the first place.
__________________
Varitek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2008, 02:12 PM   #10
Blue Crack Addict
 
phanan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: in the darkness on the edge of town
Posts: 25,060
Local Time: 02:55 AM
The GOP at its finest.
__________________
phanan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2008, 02:17 PM   #11
Blue Crack Distributor
 
VintagePunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: In a dry and waterless place
Posts: 55,732
Local Time: 02:55 AM
I found this a few days ago. Olbermann and Obama's lead council speak about vote suppression and Acorn. It should be noted that Olbermann has toned down his blowhardedness in this clip, so it's actually watchable.

YouTube - Obama prepared for dirty election tricks Keith Olbermann
__________________
VintagePunk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2008, 02:39 PM   #12
Refugee
 
cydewaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 1,256
Local Time: 03:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by corianderstem View Post
It's glaringly obvious that there is a LOT that needs to be done to fix the voting process in this country, but people's votes being changed is beyond the pale. Whether or not it's due to actual shenanigans or mechanical error, it's completely unacceptable.
In the 2004 Presidential election, the touch-screen machine I was using kept changing my vote to George Bush. So I raised my hand to ask for help. I was then lead by the arm over to a different machine that was sitting in the corner, where I tried again. This time it looked like it took, but when I turned to leave I was again led by the arm along the wall and to the exit, while someone else was voting on the machine that had screwed up on me. Everyone else was allowed to just walk right to the exit, but I was led along the wall and away from everyone else.

First thing I though was "What about that person?".

I wonder how many extra votes GW got from that machine, and machines like it. And this was in Maryland - a solid blue state. Sometimes I wonder if they were experimenting to see how many people would catch the error to determine how many votes they could siphon before raising red flags.
__________________
cydewaze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2008, 02:53 PM   #13
Blue Crack Addict
 
Varitek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: on borderland we run
Posts: 16,861
Local Time: 02:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cydewaze View Post
In the 2004 Presidential election, the touch-screen machine I was using kept changing my vote to George Bush. So I raised my hand to ask for help. I was then lead by the arm over to a different machine that was sitting in the corner, where I tried again. This time it looked like it took, but when I turned to leave I was again led by the arm along the wall and to the exit, while someone else was voting on the machine that had screwed up on me. Everyone else was allowed to just walk right to the exit, but I was led along the wall and away from everyone else.

First thing I though was "What about that person?".

I wonder how many extra votes GW got from that machine, and machines like it. And this was in Maryland - a solid blue state. Sometimes I wonder if they were experimenting to see how many people would catch the error to determine how many votes they could siphon before raising red flags.
I bet there's a lot of people with stories like this, and even more who didn't notice or if they did didn't know what to do about it. Stay classy, America.
__________________
Varitek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2008, 03:08 PM   #14
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Utoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Lovetown
Posts: 8,343
Local Time: 03:55 AM
I'm a Democrat & I'm shouting at the top of my lungs about this crap.


I just created a group on Facebook called "Let Your Vote Count: Don't Wear Pro-Candidate Shirts When You Vote!" to spread the word about "Passive Electioneering"---the fact that in many states, you'll be turned away from the polls if you wear a pro-candidate shirt, hat, pin, etc. Yes, this is an old law in many states (and new in some), though the fact that it is likely going to be enforced so strictly this year smells strongly of the GOP attempting to turn away Obama's young, enthusiastic supporters...who are among those more likely to be excited and wear an Obama shirt.

What really pisses me off is the culprits of voter suppression, at least in the last decade, are so heavily Republican. You never hear about Democratic efforts to stop black people from voting, to stop poor people from voting, to stop young people from voting, etc. Sure, those are all folks more likey to vote Democratic. So more pointedly---you never hear about Democrats trying to stop rich, white, retired people in the heartland from voting. It's disgusting.


Anyway, check out the Facebook group ("Let Your Vote Count: Don't Wear Pro-Candidate Shirts When You Vote!"). Even if you don't join, at least spread the word---tell all your friends and family not to wear anything that can be construed as pro-candidate, otherwise they'll be turned away. It's already happened to many people, one of whom is featured in a CNN.com video today (Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com)
__________________
Utoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2008, 03:13 PM   #15
Blue Crack Distributor
 
corianderstem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 63,718
Local Time: 11:55 PM


I thought it would be common sense not to wear a pro-candidate shirt. Don't they ban any political signs or campaigning within a certain radius of a polling place? Obviously that would extend to a button or shirt you're wearing. Right?

Correct me if I'm wrong. Or else I'll never learn.
__________________

__________________
corianderstem is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:55 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com