Utah Bill Criminalizes Miscarriage

[martha]

Logic fail.

The bill?

 

[Liesje]

You're very hostile towards the pro-life argument.



It's more about what your doing to the fetus' body than your own.

[warning, graphic] http://www.hyscience.com/abortion_22_weeks01.jpg

Yeah because posting photos of dead bloody fetuses isn't at all a hostile way to present an argument....

Anyway, I'm not sure how I feel about the bill itself (on a personal level, I haven't really ironed out that "line" when a person becomes a person with equal rights and protection under the law), but I simply do not see how it is in any way enforceable. I don't see the point of it, at all.

 

[PhilsFan]

Getting into an argument back in September with a pro-life fuck in front of one of those public displays of dead fetuses was kind of fun.

 

[nathan1977]

a pro-life fuck

Stay classy.

 

[corianderstem]

.

 

[martha]

Yeah because posting photos of dead bloody fetuses isn't at all a hostile way to present an argument....

Of course, I could find plenty of pictures of dead bloody women who died from illegal abortions.

But the "pro-life" people tend to think the women are less important than the fetus.

 

[kafrun]

The bill?

Yes. Not you, lol.

 

[martha]

Yes. Not you, lol.

I thought so.

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

But the "pro-life" people tend to think they're less important than the fetus.

The whole basis of the pro-life movement is viewing the mother and her unborn child as equal. No one is lesser than the other.

 

[martha]

The whole basis of the pro-life movement is viewing the mother and her unborn child as equal. No one is lesser than the other.

That's right.


I keep forgetting that I'm exactly equal to a collection of cells.

BTW, when do these fetuses get to vote for president? We're equal in your eyes, so fill me in on all the details.

 

[martha]

Right. Or if the woman payed someone to induce a miscarriage (i.e. beating her), like in the article.

So, let me get this straight. Are you sad because a pregnant teenage girl was so desperate not to give birth, she thought her only way out was to pay a man to beat her fetus out of her, or are sad because she couldn't be prosecuted?

Because if it's the second, that's FUCKED UP.

 

[BVS]

The whole basis of the pro-life movement is viewing the mother and her unborn child as equal. No one is lesser than the other.

Except when it comes down to real healthcare...

After you're born we let capitalism determine if you live or die.

 

[PhilsFan]

Stay classy.

I choose my words carefully. There are respectable people who are pro-life. People who put up billboards of dead fetuses and act like that should be the end-all be-all of the issue are not respectable people. I don't have any qualms about calling them fucks.

 

[corianderstem]

The whole basis of the pro-life movement is viewing the mother and her unborn child as equal. No one is lesser than the other.

And the whole basis of the pro-choice movement is that the government should not have control over a woman's body and reproductive choices, whether or not a pro-choice individual believes that the fetus is a person or a collection of cells.

 

[u2popmofo]

It seems a lot of assumptions were made by the initial article, and by most everyone in this thread. This is the actual news story the article based itself off of:

Measure on illegal abortions heads to governor - Salt Lake Tribune

The Utah Senate has joined the House in allowing homicide charges against expectant mothers who arrange illegal abortions.

The bill responds to a case in which a Vernal woman allegedly paid a man $150 to beat her and cause miscarriage but could not be charged. The Senate on Thursday approved HB12 on a vote of 24-4, criminalizing a woman's "intentional, knowing, or reckless act" leading to a pregnancy's illegal termination. It specifies that a woman cannot be prosecuted for arranging a legal abortion.

The measure now goes to Gov. Gary Herbert for final action.

Some Senate Democrats attempted a last-minute amendment to remove the word "reckless" from the list of criminal acts leading to miscarriage. They argued that criminalizing reckless acts leaves open the possibility of prosecutions against domestic violence victims who return to their abusers only to be beaten and lose the child.

"It's part of the cycle of domestic violence," said Sen. Luz Robles, D-Salt Lake City.

"I hope none of you ever have to face that situation," she said after realizing the majority would pass the bill as is, "or have a daughter facing that situation, or a granddaughter."

But the bill's sponsor, Sen. Margaret Dayton, R-Orem, said the bill doesn't target victims at all -- only those who arrange to terminate their pregnancies illegally.

"I know it's well-intentioned," Dayton said of the attempt to lift "reckless acts" from the bill,
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"but I don't think we want to go down the road of carefully defining the behavior of a woman."

Robles and Sen. Ben McAdams said they had spoken to the bill's original sponsor, Rep. Carl Wimmer, R-Herriman, just before the debate and believed he would support the change on behalf of domestic violence victims. Dayton, though, said Wimmer sent her a text message during the debate asking her to press on.

Wimmer later said he had been open to the Democrats' suggestion, but it had come too late.

"I wasn't about to hold the bill up," he said.

 

[corianderstem]

Yeah, admittedly the "criminalizes miscarriage" is a little over-the-top in relation to what the bill actually is, but I don't think it's a stretch in this day and age to believe that such a bill could lead to a slippery slope eroding a woman's right to choose.

 

[u2popmofo]

Yeah, it still has some terrible implications. Luckily, like most Utah State Legislation, it's so outlandish and seemingly impossible to make a judgment on legally, that it will probably never actually be able to be used in a case if it's actually passed.

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

I keep forgetting that I'm exactly equal to a collection of cells.

To be fair the human body is a collection of cells.

So, let me get this straight. Are you sad because a pregnant teenage girl was so desperate not to give birth, she thought her only way out was to pay a man to beat her fetus out of her, or are sad because she couldn't be prosecuted?

Because if it's the second, that's FUCKED UP.

*sigh* It's sad that someone would actually beat her in the attempts of killing her baby.

Except when it comes down to real healthcare...

After you're born we let capitalism determine if you live or die.

BVS, you'll be happy to know in the past several days I have had a bit of a turn-around on the health care bill, and am hopeful that it passes. I am even more hopeful that some republicans will vote for it (You never know) This belongs in the other thread but still..

 

[BVS]

BVS, you'll be happy to know in the past several days I have had a bit of a turn-around on the health care bill, and am hopeful that it passes. I am even more hopeful that some republicans will vote for it (You never know) This belongs in the other thread but still..

Love and logic will always prevail

It's just sad that it's so slow to do so...

I wish more from your party were as open minded.

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

I wish more from your party were as open minded.

They're concerned about their reelection.

Then again, they being close-minded/stubborn combinded with the democrats having no balls has gotten the current bill to include some republican ideas as well, so maybe we will see some Republicans vote for it. (Don't hold your breath).

 

[BVS]

True...

 

[martha]

Yeah, it still has some terrible implications. Luckily, like most Utah State Legislation, it's so outlandish and seemingly impossible to make a judgment on legally, that it will probably never actually be able to be used in a case if it's actually passed.

Let's hope. We can ask the good people of South Dakota how that works.