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Old 11-05-2008, 08:34 PM   #16
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A complete non sequitor. I have issues with self-described "libertarians" who do not put sufficient value on positive rights, which is why I consider paleolibertarianism to not be truly "libertarian" at all. By definition, libertarianism must be both economically liberal and socially liberal. To support economic liberalism and be socially conservative is to be a modern-day conservative. Period.
That's my understanding of it, as well. In my view, socially it involves positive rights in keeping with the no harm principle. Yet this seems to be sorely lacking in the US political brand of Libertarianism. The closest example I can come up with as far as someone espousing real libertarian views is Bill Maher, although in his case, he strikes me as skeevy sometimes, and I wonder if it's all just an excuse on his part to indulge in hedonism.
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Old 11-05-2008, 08:35 PM   #17
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And you think it's better for the government to decide all this?
No, that was my point.

It seemed Iron Horse was arguing for the censorship, because of the children, so I was asking rhetoricals... but now looking back I'm not quite sure where Iron Horse stands.
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Old 11-05-2008, 08:35 PM   #18
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A complete non sequitor.
No, it bloody well isn't a non sequitor. Your post implied libertarians are merely motivated by 'organized self-centeredness', you implied that libertarians have no good intentions and are only motivated by personal selfishness, that is a most unfair assumption to make. I asked for your thoughts on whether statism is involved in restricting freedom. This is a legitimate question. Don't get me started on how statists implement policies that restrict individual freedom. I would be here all day.

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I have issues with self-described "libertarians" who do not put sufficient value on positive rights, which is why I consider paleolibertarianism to not be truly "libertarian" at all. By definition, libertarianism must be both economically liberal and socially liberal. To support economic liberalism and be socially conservative is to be a modern-day conservative. Period.

Libertarians aren't interested in positive rights, because positive rights imply state intervention. I would argue that what you call 'paleos' are actually completely faithful to the ideals of libertarianism, precisely BECAUSE they don't go down the road of social policy (granted, it may be problematic to implement strict libertariansm in practice, for all sorts of reasons.)

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By definition, libertarianism must be both economically liberal and socially liberal. To support economic liberalism and be socially conservative is to be a modern-day conservative. Period.
No, logically, a libertarian is as opposed to statist meddling in the social as in the economic framework. Accordingly, the libertarian ought properly to be intensely sceptical of policies that advocate social meddling (even if he or she is personally in favour of them).
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Old 11-05-2008, 09:04 PM   #19
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Libertarians aren't interested in positive rights, because positive rights imply state intervention. I would argue that what you call 'paleos' are actually completely faithful to the ideals of libertarianism, precisely BECAUSE they don't go down the road of social policy (granted, it may be problematic to implement strict libertariansm in practice, for all sorts of reasons.)
Complete logical nonsense. By this notion, then, we can argue that the current status quo of every government is, by definition, "libertarian," because the people have tacitly endorsed every current government action. Two libertarian-sponsored ballot initiatives to eliminate the state income tax in two states were roundly defeated by the people, for instance. In the case of Massachusetts, this is, at least, the second time that ballot initiative was rejected by the populace.

I guess that, if this is how you define "libertarianism," then it's a good thing that the entire movement is as moribund and unelectable as communism, and I guess I should reconsider my earlier sympathies for the movement. It clearly does take "state intervention" to hold back positive rights, after all; look at California.
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Old 11-05-2008, 10:12 PM   #20
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Alex Jones' Prison Planet: The truth will set you free!

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Congressman says president elect was chosen long ago to take care of the corporate elite

Steve Watson
Infowars.net
Wednesday, Nov 5, 2008

Texas Congressman and 2008 presidential candidate Ron Paul has warned that the euphoria surrounding the election of Barack Obama combined with the overwhelming fear of major international crises could facilitate a cataclysmic shift toward a new world order.

Appearing live on the Alex Jones show earlier today, the Congressman spoke of a feeling of dread surrounding the change of guard both in the White House and on Capitol Hill:

“I do feel it but I don’t think it’s brand new, I didn’t wake up with it, I’ve had it for a while, I don’t think the election was a surprise, but the rhetoric is getting pretty strong and they are getting very bold.” he commented.

Speaking on the stage management of the election, and calling it a “huge distraction” from real issues, the Congressman outlined how both candidates were pre-positioned by the elite interests with the knowledge that either would satisfactorily serve their agenda:...
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Old 11-05-2008, 10:18 PM   #21
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Right. The next thing Paul is going to tell me is that the Illuminati and the Priory of Sion are involved too. Those who evoke the "New World Order" are about as unstable as those who thought global civilization was going to collapse, because computer clocks just wouldn't handle going from 99 to 00/100, instead of 2000.

I respect that Paul has a sharp ideological opposition to how the financial crisis has been handled, but he just sounds like an unhinged conspiracy nut when he talks like this.
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Old 11-05-2008, 10:39 PM   #22
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Libertarianism is nonsense, imo. It's becoming more and more popular to say that you're a libertarian but I'm not sure everyone applying that label to themselves even agrees on what it means. Personally, the biggest and most significant ideological commonality I have seen, judging from the way these people talk/write, is this: "Both parties are full of shit, and that's proof that government doesn't work, period."

Reality? In a country of 300 million people, YOU HAVE TO HAVE GOVERNMENT. But - and this is important - government can be big without being intrusive. I'll say it again, government can be big without being intrusive. Libertarians appear to be completely disbelieving of this vital fact. I am 100% against censorship. But I am 100% in favor of universal health care. I am 100% against the Patriot Act/FISA spying that the Bush administration has carried out. I am 100% in favor of stricter regulations for big business. Big government can be a tool for good as long as it is using its power to give people a higher quality of life and protect their freedom and their rights, and it can be the opposite as long as it is using its power to take away the peoples' rights, reduce their freedom, and weaken the democracy by intentionally misinforming the ignorant and less educated.

Libertarianism is when you believe that no big government is capable of the former and that therefore all government is corrupt. It is a movement devoid of hope. It is a movement based on negativity. Government is a powerful thing, and it's not all that difficult for it to be misused, and thinking of viable solutions for such problems is not easy, so let's just stop having government(except to fight wars with) and let our society devolve into anarchy.
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Old 11-05-2008, 10:46 PM   #23
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Libertarianism is nonsense, imo. It's becoming more and more popular to say that you're a libertarian but I'm not sure everyone applying that label to themselves even agrees on what it means. Personally, the biggest and most significant ideological commonality I have seen, judging from the way these people talk/write, is this: "Both parties are full of shit, and that's proof that government doesn't work, period."

Reality? In a country of 300 million people, YOU HAVE TO HAVE GOVERNMENT. But - and this is important - government can be big without being intrusive. I'll say it again, government can be big without being intrusive. Libertarians appear to be completely disbelieving of this vital fact. I am 100% against censorship. But I am 100% in favor of universal health care. I am 100% against the Patriot Act/FISA spying that the Bush administration has carried out. I am 100% in favor of stricter regulations for big business. Big government can be a tool for good as long as it is using its power to give people a higher quality of life and protect their freedom and their rights, and it can be the opposite as long as it is using its power to take away the peoples' rights, reduce their freedom, and weaken the democracy by intentionally misinforming the ignorant and less educated.

Libertarianism is when you believe that no big government is capable of the former and that therefore all government is corrupt. It is a movement devoid of hope. It is a movement based on negativity. Government is a powerful thing, and it's not all that difficult for it to be misused, and thinking of viable solutions for such problems is not easy, so let's just stop having government(except to fight wars with) and let our society devolve into anarchy.
Fine words

butter no parsnips.
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Old 11-05-2008, 10:53 PM   #24
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USA not free?
Try China (and more than a few other countries) if we want to discuss the repression of free speech.

Is yelling "fire!" in a crowded hall, when the hall is not on fire, free speech?

Should young children be exposed to hearing words that if I typed them here, I think my post would be deleted?
Shit, piss, fuck, cunt, cocksucker, motherfucker and tits, whoever suggests that I am holding a libertarian double standard is full of some of the above.
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Old 11-06-2008, 09:43 PM   #25
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Fine words

butter no parsnips.
I don't follow...
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Old 11-07-2008, 06:25 PM   #26
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Shit, piss, fuck, cunt, cocksucker, motherfucker and tits, whoever suggests that I am holding a libertarian double standard is full of some of the above.

*elevation
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Old 11-08-2008, 05:31 AM   #27
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To support economic liberalism and be socially conservative is to be a modern-day conservative. Period.
this is really bizarre to me, and hasn't gone unnoticed by my students either.
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Old 11-08-2008, 06:57 AM   #28
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Well the US has a funny level for swear words. You can't say shit or fuck, or even damn, but so many comedy and drams say 'son of a bitch' which i think its a shitload worse, and terribly offensive thing to say. Its stupid.
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