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Old 07-25-2019, 06:49 AM   #16
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there has to be at least some kind of indictment or charges laid before a pardon can be issued though, right? how can you legally pardon someone who hasn't (yet) been legally accused of anything? i don't see what's stopping prosecutors from just waiting until february before going after him.


Nixon was pardoned by Gerald Ford pre-emptively.
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Old 07-25-2019, 08:38 AM   #17
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So the media’s take (or some of it) wasn’t the substance of Mueller testimony, it was that he wasn’t entertaining enough ?

Pelosi still a no go on opening impeachment hearings
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Old 07-25-2019, 01:36 PM   #18
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As someone on public radio earlier today said-
"some witnesses are entertaining but not important, others are NOT entertaining but important" .

There was speculation going around that Pelosi and Nadler were in disagreement about impeachment going into a late night meeting yesterday...but agreed (i think on more investigation). Will have to double check.

I suggest you all check out last night's R Maddow show and The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell which follows Rachel's show.

Both had informative and positive things to say.

Someone pointed out Mueller was more on top of things during the Intelligence Committee hearing- the thing he may have had more lee way on talking about at least more so. Where comparatively he was shying away from things the DOJ said he wasn't allowed to discuss etc.

The hearings made me even more leaning to "imoeachment now". However i forgot about the August Congressional Recess. I don't think they should start it right now, they should recess, and they speak to their constituents during that time.

Besides it's a given fact, except for people like us that people generally do not spent much time, attention durung The Summer to politics. You always here esp on public radio that people will start paying more attention in Sept.

And why can't The Congress walk and chew gum at the same time? They worked on bills during investigating Nixon.
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Old 07-25-2019, 05:11 PM   #19
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So the media’s take (or some of it) wasn’t the substance of Mueller testimony, it was that he wasn’t entertaining enough ?

Pelosi still a no go on opening impeachment hearings
That's correct.

Because we're an inherently stupid country.
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Old 07-25-2019, 05:15 PM   #20
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there has to be at least some kind of indictment or charges laid before a pardon can be issued though, right? how can you legally pardon someone who hasn't (yet) been legally accused of anything? i don't see what's stopping prosecutors from just waiting until february before going after him.
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In Ex parte Garland , the Supreme Court settled the question of preemptive pardons. The justices in that 1866 case decided that while pardons could reach only past acts, the pardon “may be exercised at any time after [the act’s] commission, either before legal proceedings are taken or during their pendency or after conviction and judgment.”

Even before Garland, President Abraham Lincoln (among others) pardoned dozens of people — including alleged traitors — preemptively. More recently, President Jimmy Carter pardoned hundreds of thousands of Vietnam draft evaders, including those who had not been charged or convicted. And, most famously, President Gerald Ford pardoned President Richard Nixon, who had not yet been charged with anything.
POTUS 46 Pence is so totally pardoning POTUS 45 Shitbrick in December if Shitbrick loses.
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Old 07-25-2019, 05:17 PM   #21
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POTUS 46 Pence is so totally pardoning POTUS 45 Shitbrick in December if Shitbrick loses.


Mike Pence is literally sitting in the shadow not involving himself with Trump so he never pays a penalty and can run for the presidency when Drumpf is done.

If it serves Pence to betray Trump, he will. If it serves him to pardon him, he will.
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Old 07-25-2019, 05:49 PM   #22
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Mueller provided good talking points and clarity on some issues -- anybody else would be indicted, Trump was never going to be indicted because of OLC, the Russians are attacking as we speak -- however, there is no moment here that's going to light a fire under anyone. i think impeachment or not is a difficult political question. it's frightening to think of a president getting away with this stuff unpunished, but do you spend the political capital knowing it will fail in the Senate and put 2020 into doubt?

right now, what we need to deal with the structural imbalance of the Electoral College that may make it likely that Trump loses by many millions more votes in 2020 (like, say, 5m votes this round) while at the same time potentially carrying all of his 2016 states. it's absurdly tilted towards the rural states, but so be it -- it's what it is right now. no one is coming to save us.

we need to be looking at candidates who can specifically flip MI, WI, and PA. that's really the only thing that matters moving forward from yesterday.

who can do it?
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Old 07-25-2019, 06:59 PM   #23
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we need to be looking at candidates who can specifically flip MI, WI, and PA. that's really the only thing that matters moving forward from yesterday.

who can do it?
I think that it's a massive mistake to view Trump's victory there as anything but an aberration, a freak incident where literally everything that could go wrong for HRD did go wrong and everything that could go right for Orange went right. I don't even think it matters whom the Democrats nominate, MI and PA are not going to vote for Trump again. Wisconsin I have less faith in.

The constant obsession with these 3 states dooms the Democrats to thinking that ONLY a Biden can win, which frankly, is a depressing and IMO, losing proposition.
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Old 07-25-2019, 07:30 PM   #24
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I think that it's a massive mistake to view Trump's victory there as anything but an aberration, a freak incident where literally everything that could go wrong for HRD did go wrong and everything that could go right for Orange went right. I don't even think it matters whom the Democrats nominate, MI and PA are not going to vote for Trump again. Wisconsin I have less faith in.



The constant obsession with these 3 states dooms the Democrats to thinking that ONLY a Biden can win, which frankly, is a depressing and IMO, losing proposition.



I wish I had your confidence. I don’t. There were states that HRC won that were way closer than should have been (MN). There are other close states — AZ, IA, NC, NH, and even FL. We don’t have national elections. We have a minority of states that mean everything.

I agree that Trump threaded the needle in the upper Midwest and he polls in the mid to low 40s— but it always comes down to a choice between two candidates, and we’ve had three years of normalization and an approval rating that goes not much up or down. What doomed us in 2016 was the lack of imagination that he actually could win, we can’t not imagine the impossible again.

I still think, as of today, Harris/Buttigeig is the best ticket for a variety of reasons. Am curious to see how it goes next week.
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Old 07-25-2019, 09:44 PM   #25
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It was released today that Russia hacked into all 50 states and most of those state election officials had no idea.

No one wants to even discuss the possibility of voter tampering or changing votes

But let’s say Russia just did a dry run, and there’s been zero punishment for it.

2020 they, the Saudi’s, North Korea, etc will do whatever they can to tip the scales to Trump.

Wouldn’t we (and assuming we have) do it to another country to advance our agenda and interests ?
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Old 07-25-2019, 09:46 PM   #26
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As for impeachment the Democrats have to show they’re willing to stand up and fight.

By not doing anything but sending letters and tweets, I’m completely disheartened and the thought of not even bothering to vote pops up (I’m going to, just saying the thought arises).

How many others who are in places where these policies really matter to them, life or death, have lost all hope ?

That’s what i fear we lose in doing nothing. Motivation and hope

Look what PR did to get rid of their corrupt leader, why aren’t we doing this ?
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Old 07-25-2019, 10:48 PM   #27
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Because, by and large, everyday American life is pretty much the same as it was 5 years ago, if you aren’t on Twitter or watching cable news.

PR has had a very different few years than the mainland.
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Old 07-26-2019, 07:27 AM   #28
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The US also doesn't have the same history of protest as other parts of the world except when tied to large-scale movements (civil rights, Vietnam war). And opposition to Trump has never truly organized - the Resist movement is very piecemeal, the women's movement is a separate entity (and riddled with in-fighting), etc.
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Old 07-26-2019, 09:21 AM   #29
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https://twitter.com/chrislhayes/stat...318860800?s=21

Let’s say they did delete or change votes

At this point do we want to know for sure ? Or just move on and try to secure future elections ?
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Old 07-26-2019, 10:22 AM   #30
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US Politics XV: Time to Mull Mueller Mania

Quote:
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https://twitter.com/chrislhayes/stat...318860800?s=21

Let’s say they did delete or change votes



I haven’t wanted to delve into tin hat territory, but I’ve always thought this was a possibility. As we’ve discussed, the threading of the electoral needle, the improbable royal flush he was dealt, the unanticipated mistakes of the HRC campaign, how off the polls were (4-5 points in some cases) ... it’s something that the Left and the Right don’t want to be true, because the Left wants to punish HRC because ... well, dunno, but their hate for her is something they share with the right .. and the right wants to win.

Since we’ll likely never know, we have to double down on election security as a campaign issue, and the D’s have a chance here to seize an issue that plays into patriotism. What the Left doesn’t do is make voters feel good about themselves and their country, which is why they lose. A litany of America’s wrongs and expensive programs to fix them — while practical and real and useful —isn’t the way to win a presidential election. Frame 2020 as an election of USA vs Russia. And we all know who is the Russia Party, led by President Kompromat and his sidekick Moscow Mitch.

Trump wants to run agains Omar? The Dems should be running against Putin.
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