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Old 05-02-2019, 07:49 AM   #121
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Soooo, jerry, have you decided at this point that you are not going to vote for whomever the Democratic candidate and vote for (possibly) some third party progressive?

Because there are a lot of us even though we hold many progressive values-- are in vulnerable (often multiple) positions like class, color, age, disability, gender idenitity, LGBTQ, immigration status, religion that we can't afford having trump as President now, let alone another term.

While some progressive people in these categories say "we endure hardship anyway" so they won't vote foe a more centrist candidate, i'm pretty damn sure that most of them/us/myself---

don't want to be sacrificial lambs for some progressive purity test!
Enough!!!
Trump is a danger to us, to you and to the whole world. He's got to be defeated. And if that means voting for a candidate who's views don't all line up with mine? So be it.
Biden isn't my first choice, but i will do all of he campaigning i can to get to this cruel, incessant lying, , uber greedy, cheating his workers, rascist, violent sexist, anti immigrant, anti-muslim, anti-science etc man out of the WH!
I am going to vote for the Democrat in the general election. I'm also going to fight like hell in the primary against all of the Democrats except Sanders and Warren, because they all really fucking suck. No politician is good, but Sanders and Warren are the only two who seem to understand that the problems are much bigger than just Trump.

Right wing policies are the true danger, not simply Donald Trump. Joe Biden is going to allow many of the things that led us to this crisis continue unabated. That he will right a few of the wrongs of the GOP is no consolation to me. Will I vote for him? Against someone to his right, sure. But I'll sure be holding my fucking nose while I do, and to avoid that, I'm going to call him and the rest of the lot out on their terrible, terrible stances.
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Old 05-02-2019, 07:58 AM   #122
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What about the time last year when Joe was on his book tour and he got to talking at a Los Angeles Times–sponsored event about the political struggles of the 1960s? “And so, the younger generation now tells me how tough things are. Give me a break,” Biden said. “No, no, I have no empathy for it. Give me a break. Because here’s the deal, guys. We decided we were going to change the world. And we did.” He doesn’t realize how much anger there is among today’s “younger generation” toward Baby Boomers? He thinks sounding like a clueless old grampy with “no empathy” is the way to win the youth vote?

Biden’s comment wasn’t directly about the student debt problem, but it was interpreted that way. And why not? His record on finance and debt matters is one of the worst parts of his long career in the Senate. He has been so consistently a shill for the financial industry that he has been blinded to one of the most dramatic and obvious structural changes in American life. Those students of the 1960s and 1970s he speaks about were the last generation to enjoy affordable college educations. The ones he has “no empathy” for lost something essential to middle-class stability. Saddled with debt and caught in the vise-grips of a predatory loan industry, college graduates spend years digging out—in a way nobody Biden’s age ever had to do.

And of course all that is part of a wider problem that both Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren have been speaking about for decades—the way the financial industry is allowed to prey on people in dire straits. Biden joined with Republicans in the 1990s in efforts to toughen up the bankruptcy laws, based on the idea that too many middle-class people were irresponsibly running up credit-card debt and then declaring bankruptcy. Warren was then popping up as a Harvard Law professor who understood what the big banks were up to, and joined opponents who stymied Biden and the bank lobbyists for years.

In May of 2002, Warren wrote in a New York Times op-ed:

More than 90 percent of women who file for bankruptcy have been hit by some combination of unemployment, medical bills and divorce. Women are more likely than men to seek bankruptcy in the aftermath of a divorce or a medical problem, though both men and women cite job problems as the biggest difficulty.

It took until 2005, but Biden and the banks finally won and President George W. Bush signed their long-sought bill into law. As Theodoric Meyer wrote this spring in Politico explaining the Biden-Warren battle, the bill would likely have failed if Biden hadn’t led enough Democrats to the financial lobbyists’ side. Of course, the explanation was the usual one for Washington politics: the banking giant MBNA (absorbed in 2005 by Bank of America) was based in Biden’s home state of Delaware. And MBNA was the third-largest company in issuing credit cards, Meyer noted. Further:

Its executives and employees were some of Biden’s biggest campaign contributors, giving more than $200,000 over the course of his career, according to the Center for Responsive Politics. One of Biden’s sons, Hunter, worked at MBNA after graduating from law school and later consulted for the company after a stint in the Commerce Department. The Bidens’ ties to the company ran so deep that Obama campaign officials told the New York Times in 2008 that they were “one of the most sensitive issues they examined while vetting the senator for a spot on the ticket.” Biden was seen as so close to the company that he felt it necessary to tell the Washington Post at one point that he was “not the senator from MBNA.”

Most of the Democratic candidates last week went with a variation of the “Joe Biden is my friend” line. It’s the idea Biden will be selling, too: that he’s the warm, good-hearted, everyman who will out hustle and outshine Trump. The grief and heartache that Biden has experienced in life—losing his first wife and an infant daughter to a car wreck, and more recently losing his son Beau—make him warm and sympathetic to others who have suffered such grief. And yet, somehow he has not translated his identification with ordinary Americans into much of a record of accomplishment for them, much less to a set of public policies that speaks to our time of racial injustice, inequality, and governmental servility in the face of corporate prerogatives.
https://thebaffler.com/latest/twenti...ry-man-denison
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Old 05-02-2019, 08:32 AM   #123
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Bc you called them "shitty", which imo is an over generalization.
If anything its an understatement.
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Old 05-02-2019, 08:34 AM   #124
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The Baby Boomers are possibly the most selfish generation in modern history. They have left the rest of us with massive structural issues that will take decades to rectify, if they can be rectified at all. The examples are many - they stuck us with the climate change issues of today, they have bankrupted or nearly bankrupted cities, municipalities, etc by setting up unsustainable defined benefit pension plans for themselves which means that the current workers are supporting them while they sit in retirement in relative wealth (thanks to the housing boom off which they profited), and on and on.

I am not a millenial and truth be told I see a number of issues with the millenial generation in the workplace which I think the millenials are unwilling to recognize or just dismiss as the rest of us being old and ornery. But they are totally right to call out the boomers.
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Old 05-02-2019, 08:40 AM   #125
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The Baby Boomers are possibly the most selfish generation in modern history. They have left the rest of us with massive structural issues that will take decades to rectify, if they can be rectified at all. The examples are many - they stuck us with the climate change issues of today, they have bankrupted or nearly bankrupted cities, municipalities, etc by setting up unsustainable defined benefit pension plans for themselves which means that the current workers are supporting them while they sit in retirement in relative wealth (thanks to the housing boom off which they profited), and on and on.

I am not a millenial and truth be told I see a number of issues with the millenial generation in the workplace which I think the millenials are unwilling to recognize or just dismiss as the rest of us being old and ornery. But they are totally right to call out the boomers.
I'm going to print this out and pin it to my wall
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Old 05-02-2019, 08:53 AM   #126
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I am not a millenial and truth be told I see a number of issues with the millenial generation in the workplace which I think the millenials are unwilling to recognize or just dismiss as the rest of us being old and ornery. But they are totally right to call out the boomers.
You're not? Are you that old? Millenials are those born between ~1980 and ~1994 and I always believed you fit that demographic.
I'm just calling this out as I regularly see people refer to millenials (those who more or less came of age during the first 10 years of the new millenium) while actually meaning today's 18-year olds (for now that's still called Generation Z).
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Old 05-02-2019, 08:56 AM   #127
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You're not? Are you that old? Millenials are those born between ~1980 and ~1994 and I always believed you fit that demographic.
I'm just calling this out as I regularly see people refer to millenials (those who more or less came of age during the first 10 years of the new millenium) while actually meaning today's 18-year olds (for now that's still called Generation Z).
Yes, I'm that old.

I've typically seen millenials as defined more as of 1982-1983 but in any event I am still part of the 70s.
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Old 05-02-2019, 09:03 AM   #128
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Old 05-02-2019, 10:15 AM   #129
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Yes, I'm that old.



I've typically seen millenials as defined more as of 1982-1983 but in any event I am still part of the 70s.
Yea I'm 1980 so I say I'm a millennial when it serves me and say I'm not when it doesn't
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Old 05-02-2019, 10:28 AM   #130
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Yea I'm 1980 so I say I'm a millennial when it serves me and say I'm not when it doesn't


You’re not a millennial, dad.
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Old 05-02-2019, 10:29 AM   #131
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So this is all I've got on the Democratic candidate as a whole.

I understand that Trump is a symptom and not the cause. I get that. It's the end of 2 decades of right wing radio and TV firing up old white boomers into believing that they've lost something as a way to further enrich those who took it by blaming it on minorities.

That said - Trump's corruption is the most dangerous thing to happen to our nation in some time, and.not because of Trump. He's dangerous because of what comes after Trump. If the Democrats don't pursue impeachment and don't go after him on everything they're setting a precedent that will be taken advantage or by the next right wing populist, who won't be as big a clown as Trump is.

Which brings me to your point as to why Biden and what people see in him.

What the GOP eventually realized with Trump is that, as bad as his corruption may be, politically he's an empty vessel. His bluster makes him well liked amongst the aforementioned old white boomers and those who trend towards racism. He's a figurehead. The party controls the platform, and as long as Trump is able to do some things to help him make money then he's good.

For whatever it's worth, it's not a bad model. It's clearly highly successful, and frankly should be something that is copied by the DNC. This presidency has shown that the president isn't really as important to the running of the nation as we'd like to think.

Of course the DNC can't agree on anything, so it may not be applicable, but it's not a terrible idea to put forth a win by any means necessary candidate and control the actual platform fr behind the scenes. Biden can fit that role, if he's actually willing to accept it.

Personally I'd like to see everyone over the age of 65 get the fuck out of the race, but whatever. Whatever gets this stain out and then we can deal with what's next.
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Old 05-02-2019, 10:29 AM   #132
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You’re not a millennial, dad.
I know
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Old 05-02-2019, 10:41 AM   #133
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So this is all I've got on the Democratic candidate as a whole.

I understand that Trump is a symptom and not the cause. I get that. It's the end of 2 decades of right wing radio and TV firing up old white boomers into believing that they've lost something as a way to further enrich those who took it by blaming it on minorities.

That said - Trump's corruption is the most dangerous thing to happen to our nation in some time, and.not because of Trump. He's dangerous because of what comes after Trump. If the Democrats don't pursue impeachment and don't go after him on everything they're setting a precedent that will be taken advantage or by the next right wing populist, who won't be as big a clown as Trump is.

Which brings me to your point as to why Biden and what people see in him.

What the GOP eventually realized with Trump is that, as bad as his corruption may be, politically he's an empty vessel. His bluster makes him well liked amongst the aforementioned old white boomers and those who trend towards racism. He's a figurehead. The party controls the platform, and as long as Trump is able to do some things to help him make money then he's good.

For whatever it's worth, it's not a bad model. It's clearly highly successful, and frankly should be something that is copied by the DNC. This presidency has shown that the president isn't really as important to the running of the nation as we'd like to think.

Of course the DNC can't agree on anything, so it may not be applicable, but it's not a terrible idea to put forth a win by any means necessary candidate and control the actual platform fr behind the scenes. Biden can fit that role, if he's actually willing to accept it.

Personally I'd like to see everyone over the age of 65 get the fuck out of the race, but whatever. Whatever gets this stain out and then we can deal with what's next.
This is an interesting response. I think my counterargument to that would be that, if Biden takes the nomination, several things will follow:

- The DNC will be convinced that it is a signal that leftism isn't popular, and that catering to the "center" by championing bipartisanship with the GOP and putting forth candidates with very little in the way of actual beliefs or principles is the way to go. They already believe this to be the case; just look at how they tried to blacklist people who would work with primary challengers to incumbents. Biden winning would be proof of concept for them.

- Biden would have a legitimate chance of losing. He would deflate any upswell of typical non-voters from turning out, as he does not appeal to young people, workers (try as he might, the union thing is bullshit and most of them know it), or people of color in any way beyond being Not Technically A Republican.

- Should he win, Biden would not bring in a wave of leftist candidates with him, and the downballot candidates would be more of the same. The policies he would champion would not move the needle significantly, even if he was able to get the House and Senate. Obama had both and let bipartisanship gut Obamacare. Much like Obama and Clinton, they'd come in and get very little done beyond sticking their fingers in the dam. And that is a recipe for losing mid-terms, and ultimately the White House. It gives fodder to the GOP that Democrats are ineffective and get nothing done, disillusioning those who put their hopes in something that would fall flat.

Basically, my postulation that "we just need to reset and get Trump out of there" is a terrible way of evaluating this. The cat is out of the bag, in that respect. The GOP knows how much farther it can stretch its self-serving depravity now; there's no turning that off without fundamentally changing the system. Every time they get in power again, they know how much easier it will be, and how much more they can get away with.

Biden and the other centrist Dems aren't out here to change anything with the system. They just believe you need kinder people in charge. It helps, but it's only temporary relief. We've seen this play before.
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Old 05-02-2019, 10:46 AM   #134
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As much as some of Biden's comments about those across the isle from him can be infuriating to liberals like myself. I think it's more of a calculated move. He does try to position himself (like Klobuchar) that he is able to work with people that have differing views and can be a safe place for independents and moderate republicans to run to if they are not on board with Trump. Its why in his kick off speech that he kept referencing Independents. He knows he can get them, he knows that they are very large and growing constituency of the electorate. He is already polling ahead of everyone else with self named liberals, moderates, minorities, women and 40+ aged Dem voters. So going for those Independents is crucial right now.

No matter what is going on with the most left, "progressive" wing of the Dem party. The truth (which is born out in polling) is that there is a huge majority swath of 35 to 70+ liberal/moderate voters that are far more reliable to actually vote in the end.

More left leaning Dems might not like the situation we are in right now. But we need to take back the White House, keep the congress, and hopefully regain the senate ASAP. Pretty much our country and Democracy and our Judicial system depend on it. I'd like to see Biden with a more progressive running mate that is set up to take the reigns in 2028 or hell even 2024, as I can see an unprecedented move by Biden of stepping aside after 4 years.
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Old 05-02-2019, 10:53 AM   #135
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This is an interesting response. I think my counterargument to that would be that, if Biden takes the nomination, several things will follow:

- The DNC will be convinced that it is a signal that leftism isn't popular, and that catering to the "center" by championing bipartisanship with the GOP and putting forth candidates with very little in the way of actual beliefs or principles is the way to go. They already believe this to be the case; just look at how they tried to blacklist people who would work with primary challengers to incumbents. Biden winning would be proof of concept for them.

- Biden would have a legitimate chance of losing. He would deflate any upswell of typical non-voters from turning out, as he does not appeal to young people, workers (try as he might, the union thing is bullshit and most of them know it), or people of color in any way beyond being Not Technically A Republican.

- Should he win, Biden would not bring in a wave of leftist candidates with him, and the downballot candidates would be more of the same. The policies he would champion would not move the needle significantly, even if he was able to get the House and Senate. Obama had both and let bipartisanship gut Obamacare. Much like Obama and Clinton, they'd come in and get very little done beyond sticking their fingers in the dam. And that is a recipe for losing mid-terms, and ultimately the White House. It gives fodder to the GOP that Democrats are ineffective and get nothing done, disillusioning those who put their hopes in something that would fall flat.

Basically, my postulation that "we just need to reset and get Trump out of there" is a terrible way of evaluating this. The cat is out of the bag, in that respect. The GOP knows how much farther it can stretch its self-serving depravity now; there's no turning that off without fundamentally changing the system. Every time they get in power again, they know how much easier it will be, and how much more they can get away with.

Biden and the other centrist Dems aren't out here to change anything with the system. They just believe you need kinder people in charge. It helps, but it's only temporary relief. We've seen this play before.
I can't agree with most of this. I don't know why you think Biden wouldn't appeal to "workers". There isn't another candidate other than Sanders that could do as well with them.
Also, he has a very strong base of minority support. Stronger than any other candidate right now, including Harris, Booker and Castro by far.

The reasoning that he wouldn't bring along more far left candidates down ticket, really isn't that compelling either. The reason that we had the huge blue wave in 2018 was because more moderate democrats won in their moderate districts, and far left ones that won, did so because they were in districts that were really not up for grabs.

I think that you need to put this election in a different frame. If Biden wins, I really don't think that DNC leadership will think that more progressive views are shunned. I think the leadership knows that the electorate (progressive, liberal, moderate, independent, moderate Repubs) as a whole view this as "righting the ship" time. Getting the country back to a state of non-choas and corruption, and then moving forward from there.
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