US Politics VIII

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BEAL said:
Maybe we need to dig for gold??

Other countries can afford their healthcare because they’re the size of Ohio.

I agree it can be done, but it’ll have to happen in increments.

Tho I’m not sure you could even convince this country to tax the rich. Somehow trickle down economics is still believable
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I'm all in favor of breaking the country up, so count me in.
 
PhilsFan said:
Because we absolutely can pay for it? Every other country can pay for it. We have ungodly resources and wealth in this country. It's really not complicated unless we still are trying to protect rich people, corporations, and the military industrial complex. Like I said to BVS, this is not going to be so complicated that I need to compose a 500-page CBO report to explain it to everyone here every time.

"Medicare for All" is the best example they've had of this yet, though it's hardly had the support from mainstream Dems at this time. It's not exactly what the healthcare system should be, but it's a catchy and simple enough concept for most people to understand that it works much in the way MAGA seemed to capture what people wanted. Only difference obviously being that we're talking about getting healthcare for everyone, instead of trying to revert to the 1950s and just giving all the jobs to white men. I guess some people still think that's horseshoe theory, though.
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Oh, I'm not denying the fact we could pay for this stuff, don't get me wrong. You're absolutely right that we can. I'm just saying that people will want explanations as to how. Your suggestions on how to do that make perfect sense to me, and should seem pretty simple to anyone paying even the slightest bit of attention, but still, some people will want to hear the details anyway. So I do think we need to take that into account to some degree.

"Medicare for All" is a good, simple slogan, though, you're right about that.

Regarding the talk of protests, I wonder if there's some sort of grand scale thing people in this country can do to really hit the politicians and any businesses/organizations that support them where it really hurts economically or something, to shake them into finally standing up to Trump? I wonder if some kind of a mass sit-in or or a protest of that sort would finally get their attention the way it should.
 
There's a fundamental problem with taxing the rich in that a threshold is reached where they are incentivized to shelter their money or otherwise dodge the taxes, and they have resources such that they will always be a few steps ahead of those trying to prevent them from doing so. The Panama Papers and other leaks from the last few years illustrate that pretty well.

I think a major starting point toward mitigating social tension is easing the wealth disparity, which is probably a lot about educational opportunity. I would say redirect some of those massive military expenditures to free or heavily subsidized community and state colleges, and untether local K-12 school funding from property taxes so that some of the gross resource inequities are ironed out. Poorly funded schools are a major contributor to neighborhood stagnation and poverty.
 
PhilsFan said:
I am white and I am 27-years-old.

My point is not that they are the same in everyway. My point is that I don't think they are dramatically different, which was more of a bouncing off point to use the turn of phrase in the post I was responding to.

Your argument here is largely about social issues, on which the Democrats are clearly and unquestionably doing better than the Republicans. On gay rights, women's rights, ... there is no doubt what party has the correct stances.

The Democrats do not have that clear distinction on many issues with the economy, foreign policy, and law enforcement. And those three things have a far greater impact on inequality than passing an amendment that says everyone is equal under the law.

Until the Democrats are willing to eschew their ties to Wall Street and corporations (essentially to American capitalism as we know it), are willing to openly and consistently criticize the military industrial complex while adhering to a much more rigid non-interventionist policy, and are willing to dramatically reduce the militarization of the police forces in this country while abolishing ICE and scaling back the Patriot Act, we are going to continue to see cycles in which the GOP takes over and does what it is doing right now.
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Now I have some time to answer this.

I remember when Ralph Nader referred (talking ? 20 +/- years ago) to "gonad" politics". I don't know whether he was referring to "just" the LGBT community, or was a women's Right to Choose under that "banner" as well .

Jeeez, did the man ever hear stories of civil rights being denied to gay men & women? Persecution, etc? To be SO dismissive is/was awful!

I'm using as that as an example to point out that social issues are critically important to those whose lives are affected by one or several a intersectionalities. Your education, Beal h, work choices, where you live, safety from violent biogots, how easily you can vote, etc.

The Democrats are pretty to quite good in these areas; not all Democrats, and not at all times (past, current) but the aggregate is good plus. They are real issues to many people, and those who care about them.
Passing laws and enforcing protecting are critical, too.

There are times when quite well off black people (whom some might or might be recognized by the general publuc) have been abused by cops. In these cases where the initial interaction could result in injury or death,their wealth won't protect them (a lawsuit might be successful with their own high-quality priced attorneys).

That sort of a tangent, but not quite the USA has to do better in fighting systemic rascism, and trying to change hearts of individual (it has happened) bigots .

As to economics, corporations etc... I started to have my doubts ,oh, in the later 60's especially about corporations.
I'm a 65 yr white woman, born & bred NYC'r. Since I've paid attention (as much as possible under different circumstances) to local, national and international news from a young age - I've seen a lot of stuff, up close or from afar. I was "woke" esp by my mom by the time I was ? 12 yrs- and just got more woke over the decades. Because I loved the beauty and awesomeness of nature I was environmentally aware around the same time. And my mom would point out how bad stuff could be dumped off in poor black areas, and back then nothing would , could be done about it (waaay before the term "environmental justice" was a common known tern).

The ole "people before profits" slogan was some thing I began to seriously consider.
 
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Con't answer to PF

Now back in the day in my neighborhood and user-friendly we had an influx of anti-Castro Cuban immigrants. One who became a good friend. So our "motto" (which got was substitutions of people slung around ) - "better dead, than Red". Hey, it was high Cold War times! Now I'm still anti-Communist. And most Americans back then equated Socialism with Communism, and I certainly at 11 yrs didn't know a thing about European Democratic Socialism! That would take a few more decades to appear in my radar.

As I've typing this and above been looking at continuum scales of economics, and when I put in a search for "types of capitalism" got some more interesting info than I expected.

I have to go buy something before store closes so I'll just add I'm against croney, predatory or laissez faire capitalism!

BBL or tomorrow
 
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Headache in a Suitcase said:
I'm all in favor for never hearing "they to low, we go high" again.
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I like Michelle Obama but she's totally delusional with this.

Hello, you're dealing with Donald Trump, a man who takes every opportunity to be the greatest asshole in the room, not the Queen of England. Fuck him and his followers.
 
DaveC said:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jul/11/tim-hortons-china-coffee-shops-canada

can't afford to pay our front-line workers an extra $30 bucks a week or cover basic health insurance for them, but we have money to renovate every store in canada and also open 1500 locations in a totally new overseas market!

fucking ridiculous. this company will never see another dime from me again.
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In fairness, the costs you’re criticizing are tied to both borrowing and revenue. Paying your employees is not.

Wages should the rule, not the expectation. Ought to better define minimum full time standards of living.
 
Wow :tsk: major autocorrect Avon the second part of my post. Sorry

Maybe I'll bring some your other more reccent posts, PF. Looking them over, I think I can wing it.

Start with voting. Oh, I'm well aware of voter suppression, a major scourge against democracy. At first it was something I knew about as it relates to The South, but over time me picked up examples up North. If course the last 10+ years have all these attempted or successful States laws.:angry:

As for primaries- never really thought about suppression, but I see the points you are making. I was taught to vote in the primaries right off the bat. I've barely missed a primary r a general election. Cutting the time frame in order to register should b e a week or a few days before any election. Maybe even same day registration.

I only remembered some weeks ago when I think I found something that triggered a memory In 1971 there were still genuine liberal Republicans that I in two cases ( before I was unable to vote yet, but volunteered) here in NYC preferred against the more socially conservative Democrats. But I wouldn't be able to vote in the primaries once I became of age to vote [first round of first time 18 yr old voters :D ] if I didn't register one way or the other partywise. So I am a Democrat.

Ehh, about to run out of battery. Tomorrow for economic stuff, PF.
 
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I notice most people who are against universal healthcare in the US cite cost as a major reason. But it’s actually cheaper. Much much cheaper. If everyone is covered, there’s no need for a massive insurance industry, less need for itemizing every treatment, no incentive to game the system, incentives to keep people healthy, etc. Also it invents people to get treatment early, and prevention is so much cheaper than cure.
 
anitram said:
I like Michelle Obama but she's totally delusional with this.

Hello, you're dealing with Donald Trump, a man who takes every opportunity to be the greatest asshole in the room, not the Queen of England. Fuck him and his followers.
Click to expand...


I love Michelle Obama and I agree with you.

He just said at his NATO press conference that he's a very stable genius. Lmao. Why is he more angry with Germany and NATO than he ever seems to be with Russia?
 
anitram said:
I like Michelle Obama but she's totally delusional with this.

Hello, you're dealing with Donald Trump, a man who takes every opportunity to be the greatest asshole in the room, not the Queen of England. Fuck him and his followers.
Click to expand...
It was a nice thought in a world where none of this seemed possible.

It's also a nice goal to strive for.

It is, however, unrealistic in our current times.

For this, we need a war time consigliere.
 
Talking about winning the election multiple times and promoting his golf course in Scotland and properties he owns in Ireland. Free promotion at press conference. Self and otherwise.
 
So Al Franken has to resign immediately for alleged groping of adult women decades ago without any sort of investigation

But

Jim Jordan is a man of integrity and there won’t be anything done or looked into with these wrestlers claims of him ignoring sexual assault.

The GOP are just evil. How did they all become this way ? There’s not one redeeming member
 
dazzledbylight said:
Now I have some time to answer this.

I remember when Ralph Nader referred (talking ? 20 +/- years ago) to "gonad" politics". I don't know whether he was referring to "just" the LGBT community, or was a women's Right to Choose under that "banner" as well .

Jeeez, did the man ever hear stories of civil rights being denied to gay men & women? Persecution, etc? To be SO dismissive is/was awful!

I'm using as that as an example to point out that social issues are critically important to those whose lives are affected by one or several a intersectionalities. Your education, Beal h, work choices, where you live, safety from violent biogots, how easily you can vote, etc.

The Democrats are pretty to quite good in these areas; not all Democrats, and not at all times (past, current) but the aggregate is good plus. They are real issues to many people, and those who care about them.
Passing laws and enforcing protecting are critical, too.

There are times when quite well off black people (whom some might or might be recognized by the general publuc) have been abused by cops. In these cases where the initial interaction could result in injury or death,their wealth won't protect them (a lawsuit might be successful with their own high-quality priced attorneys).

That sort of a tangent, but not quite the USA has to do better in fighting systemic rascism, and trying to change hearts of individual (it has happened) bigots .

As to economics, corporations etc... I started to have my doubts ,oh, in the later 60's especially about corporations.
I'm a 65 yr white woman, born & bred NYC'r. Since I've paid attention (as much as possible under different circumstances) to local, national and international news from a young age - I've seen a lot of stuff, up close or from afar. I was "woke" esp by my mom by the time I was ? 12 yrs- and just got more woke over the decades. Because I loved the beauty and awesomeness of nature I was environmentally aware around the same time. And my mom would point out how bad stuff could be dumped off in poor black areas, and back then nothing would , could be done about it (waaay before the term "environmental justice" was a common known tern).

The ole "people before profits" slogan was some thing I began to seriously consider.
Click to expand...
I have read your three posts in response to my post, and while I think you are largely correct and your heart is in the right place, I'm not exactly sure what any of this has to do if the idea is that you disagree with me?

My point is not that the Dems should eschew moral stances, nor should they hide them away. My point is that, without addressing the economic factors that are causing hardship, you're limiting your scope. Not only with different voter blocs, but also in how you can help and impact those very groups who are being hurt by those social issues you described.

You are correct that wealthy minorities can still be harassed. Our law enforcement groups are notoriously racist. But limiting access to resources is one of the main ways the system keeps minority groups down. Being able to attack that problem will undoubtedly help a tremendous number of things.

I fundamentally reject the notion that we need to choose between identity politics/social issues and economic justice. They are all intertwined.
 
I enjoyed listening to clips of Peter Strzok on Capitol Hill today. He is not here for your bullshit circus, Gowdy.
 
MrsSpringsteen said:
I have it on now. It's unreal. I love the guy who is reading all kinds of criticism of Trump by Republicans during the campaign. Wish I had seen the whole thing, or maybe not...
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MrsSpringsteen said:
Hakeem Jeffries :up:
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Tennesse Rep. Steve Cohen, when his time came, reamed the GOP for having the investigation at all, called the administration the most corrupt administration ever, and said he'd give Strzok "a purple heart if I could" for enduring this whole thing.

Of course GOP/Trumpers are jumping on that last part, saying it's an insult/disgrace to people who have received a purple heart for being wounded and/or killed.

Probably should've known better than to say that. That's red meat for these people.
 
namkcuR said:
Tennesse Rep. Steve Cohen, when his time came, reamed the GOP for having the investigation at all, called the administration the most corrupt administration ever, and said he'd give Strzok "a purple heart if I could" for enduring this whole thing.
Click to expand...

Niiiiiiiiiiice :up:. Can we get more politicians to say stuff like this to the GOP's faces?

namkcuR said:
Of course GOP/Trumpers are jumping on that last part, saying it's an insult/disgrace to people who have received a purple heart for being wounded and/or killed.
Click to expand...

Yeah, well, when those same people finally call out and turn on Trump for all the disrespectful things he's said about the military/veterans/their families, then their complaints can have some actual merit. Until then, they can shut it.
 
That Purple Heart comment is ridiculous, he never should have said that. Talk about hyperbole. My father got a Purple Heart, but I'm not offended by that comment. My father is a Republican but he can't stand Trump.

All I have to say to Trump supporters is Khizr Khan. You attacked the father (and mother) of a deceased US Army Captain. And so did Trump. John McCain, Trump attacked his heroic service and time as a POW directly and continues to attack him even though he has terminal brain cancer. So you're a bunch of hypocrites.

There are other examples but I'm too tired and too disgusted.
 
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codeguy said:
I notice most people who are against universal healthcare in the US cite cost as a major reason. But it’s actually cheaper. Much much cheaper. If everyone is covered, there’s no need for a massive insurance industry, less need for itemizing every treatment, no incentive to game the system, incentives to keep people healthy, etc. Also it invents people to get treatment early, and prevention is so much cheaper than cure.
Click to expand...
Definitely agree. It might not seem that way at the very beginning, but I bet it works out pretty fast.
One of the most ignorant things during the Tea Party days were older people protesting "don't let the government take my Medicare away"! Arrrrg!!!
MrsSpringsteen said:
I love Michelle Obama and I agree with you.

He just said at his NATO press conference that he's a very stable genius. Lmao. Why is he more angry with Germany and NATO than he ever seems to be with Russia?
Click to expand...
oh, jeez, indeed!

Headache in a Suitcase said:
It was a nice thought in a world where none of this seemed possible.

It's also a nice goal to strive for.

It is, however, unrealistic in our current times.

For this, we need a war time consigliere.
Click to expand...

Yup! I used to design/ illustrate some pretty nasty, sometimes funny letter paper size posters during elections 2000, 2004. Maybe 2012, too. I'd put them up around my nrighborhood, and universities.
 
PHILSFAN-
I'm getting around to more of the economic part, and factors that effect my outlook. Wanted you to get a more nuanced view of my overall thinking, where some of that came from, and my evolution.
More on the economics. Having big problem with my phone, so that's going to take extra time away from wifi. Will continue soonish.
 
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