US Politics II

[elevated_u2_fan]

I think hes living in the land where it's spelled Seoul.

 

[DaveC]

It would kill an incredible amount of people. What fantast land are you living in if you don't believe that?

what, you need yet another long, highly detailed, academically sourced post describing how it's literally impossible for north korea to "virtually destroy" seoul?

"kill an incredible amount of people" is vastly different than the virtual destruction of the entire city. i never once said they couldn't kill lots of civilians.

here is the full radius of destruction if north korea drops the largest nuke they are known to have ever tested on downtown seoul:

it would require nothing short of fighting a months-long running street battle like stalingrad across the entire MASSIVE city of seoul in order for it to be annihilated.

i've said it several times now and you seem to never get it so i'm going to all-caps it and hopefully this time it sticks: STOP BUYING SO EASILY INTO BULLSHIT HYPERBOLE. YOU'RE BELIEVING EVERYTHING *NORTH KOREA* IS TELLING YOU FOR GOD'S SAKES. IT IS EXACTLY WHAT KIM WANTS AND THAT HYSTERIA IS EXACTLY WHAT IS GOING TO START THIS WAR THAT YOU ARE SO TERRIFIED OF.

(Trump land probably).

PS: you can fuck right off with this bit.

 

[TheFox]

what, you need yet another long, highly detailed, academically sourced post describing how it's literally impossible for north korea to "virtually destroy" seoul?

"kill an incredible amount of people" is vastly different than the virtual destruction of the entire city. i never once said they couldn't kill lots of civilians.

here is the full radius of destruction if north korea drops the largest nuke they are known to have ever tested on downtown seoul:

it would require nothing short of fighting a months-long running street battle like stalingrad across the entire MASSIVE city of seoul in order for it to be annihilated.

i've said it several times now and you seem to never get it so i'm going to all-caps it and hopefully this time it sticks: STOP BUYING SO EASILY INTO BULLSHIT HYPERBOLE. YOU'RE BELIEVING EVERYTHING *NORTH KOREA* IS TELLING YOU FOR GOD'S SAKES. IT IS EXACTLY WHAT KIM WANTS AND THAT HYSTERIA IS EXACTLY WHAT IS GOING TO START THIS WAR THAT YOU ARE SO TERRIFIED OF.



PS: you can fuck right off with this bit.

http://thediplomat.com/2017/08/why-...sile-flight-tests-over-japan-and-toward-guam/

This isn't troubling? From an expert. No need for caps, you're seriously underestimating what's going on here and even discussing a nuke being dropped on Seoul no matter how "small" it is beyond belief.

 

[BEAL]

Either China steps up with pressure, or we will be at war by the end of the year if not sooner.

I'm not completely against war with NK, but I would feel so much better if it wasn't Trump in charge.

Even Obama botched Libya, and some would argue Syria and he strikes me as someone who is very calculating about every decision he makes (Clinton the same way). That being said, the Middle East is not an easy fix, and other brilliant minds have failed too.

With Trump, I feel like he'd just order 50 Nukes drop and then tell South Korea and China to clean up the mess.

 

[JTNash]

Either China steps up with pressure, or we will be at war by the end of the year if not sooner.

I'm not completely against war with NK, but I would feel so much better if it wasn't Trump in charge.

Even Obama botched Libya, and some would argue Syria and he strikes me as someone who is very calculating about every decision he makes (Clinton the same way). That being said, the Middle East is not an easy fix, and other brilliant minds have failed too.

With Trump, I feel like he'd just order 50 Nukes drop and then tell South Korea and China to clean up the mess.

Trump has zero regard for human life. It's scary don't want to think about what he'd do.

 

[BEAL]

Maybe NK needs to open a Trump hotel and he'd reconsider war

 

[DaveC]

http://thediplomat.com/2017/08/why-...sile-flight-tests-over-japan-and-toward-guam/

This isn't troubling? From an expert. No need for caps, you're seriously underestimating what's going on here and even discussing a nuke being dropped on Seoul no matter how "small" it is beyond belief.

lol you should try reading articles before you post them, dude. that one has absolutely squat fuck all to do with anything i said. it's about guam and IRBM interception. we've been talking about NK's supposed ability to "virtually destroy" (your words) the city of seoul.

i never claimed that all this isn't somewhat troubling. of course it is. there is a chance this could spiral out of control. i probably have more reason to be concerned than anyone here because i'm on the supplemental reserve list for the canadian forces until 2022, which means i'd be the first to be called up in the event that shit hits the fan.

but more likely than not the odds are that there will be no shooting war. kim is not a stupid or crazy man. he was educated in the west and is fully aware of the capabilities of the american military. what he wants more than anything on earth, as with all dictators, is to stay in power and consolidate that power even further. he knows exactly what would happen if he actually went to war with the rest of the world. he's not interested in deliberately starting a war he knows he's going to lose that will end up with him either dead or in jail for war crimes for the rest of his life. he wants to scare everyone into backing off the military and economic pressure so he can look like a hero to the people of north korea and gain even more domestic power. the ultimate goal of NK's nuclear program has always been deterrence, not wanton destruction.

now i am not saying, nor have i ever said, with certainty there will be no war, or that if there is a war it will be an easy one. but i am saying with certainty that the nightmare scenarios you keep bringing up of seoul or tokyo or guam or wherever else being vaporized are out of the question unless the entire city turns into fucking groznyy for a year or more. there is no chance in hell the army of the DPRK could logistically, morally, and physically sustain an attritional battle like that. you're worried about things that are impossible - you might as well be terrified of the imminent unicorn invasion from narnia.

but look, if you're just flat uninterested in what i have to say then just say so. if you really insist on living in irrational hysteria then please let me know so i won't waste any more of my time trying to bring you some reality.

 

[corianderstem]

would virtually destroy Soul

Gosh, I hope not. Pretty sure that's where Bono lives.

 

[TheFox]

lol you should try reading articles before you post them, dude. that one has absolutely squat fuck all to do with anything i said. it's about guam and IRBM interception. we've been talking about NK's supposed ability to "virtually destroy" (your words) the city of seoul.

i never claimed that all this isn't somewhat troubling. of course it is. there is a chance this could spiral out of control. i probably have more reason to be concerned than anyone here because i'm on the supplemental reserve list for the canadian forces until 2022, which means i'd be the first to be called up in the event that shit hits the fan.

but more likely than not the odds are that there will be no shooting war. kim is not a stupid or crazy man. he was educated in the west and is fully aware of the capabilities of the american military. what he wants more than anything on earth, as with all dictators, is to stay in power and consolidate that power even further. he knows exactly what would happen if he actually went to war with the rest of the world. he's not interested in deliberately starting a war he knows he's going to lose that will end up with him either dead or in jail for war crimes for the rest of his life. he wants to scare everyone into backing off the military and economic pressure so he can look like a hero to the people of north korea and gain even more domestic power. the ultimate goal of NK's nuclear program has always been deterrence, not wanton destruction.

now i am not saying, nor have i ever said, with certainty there will be no war, or that if there is a war it will be an easy one. but i am saying with certainty that the nightmare scenarios you keep bringing up of seoul or tokyo or guam or wherever else being vaporized are out of the question unless the entire city turns into fucking groznyy for a year or more. there is no chance in hell the army of the DPRK could logistically, morally, and physically sustain an attritional battle like that. you're worried about things that are impossible - you might as well be terrified of the imminent unicorn invasion from narnia.

but look, if you're just flat uninterested in what i have to say then just say so. if you really insist on living in irrational hysteria then please let me know so i won't waste any more of my time trying to bring you some reality.

I hope you're right, I really do and I don't want to be hyperbolic at all I just can't understand the apparent madness of Trump. Why this now? https://twitter.com/AP/status/895714739220865024

If it was Obama I wouldn't be half as worried (I know the lack of action by past Presidents has essentially caused this) but if there were two people in the world who could lead us to this worst case scenarios then it would be KJU and Trump! If you say this can't happen and things will descalate then fair enough, I bow to your superior knowledge but the crazy rhetoric of Trump is driving a lot of hysteria when he should be calming the situation.

 

[mama cass]

Maybe NK needs to open a Trump hotel and he'd reconsider war

not a bad idea

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I like that idea, too .

And now thanks to Dave's post I'm imagining a unicorn invasion from Narnia ...

Gosh, I hope not. Pretty sure that's where Bono lives.

LOL. Bless you guys for lightening the mood a little in here.

 

[Wide Awake n AZ]

kim is not a stupid or crazy man. he was educated in the west and is fully aware of the capabilities of the american military. what he wants more than anything on earth, as with all dictators, is to stay in power and consolidate that power even further.

I think this, too...he has been exposed to a more open way of thinking so he isn't indoctrinated. My only concern is, since he was born, this "Leader as Supreme Being" myth has been in play. He grew up going to Western schools, but unlike his predecessor relatives who were born before this idea was revealed, he has been brought up under this belief.

MAD has always been what kept us alive. MAD can really only be broken by someone who believes he/she is immortal, or someone who believes what is next is better. I think you are right here, but his lifelong exposure to this idea is my nagging worry.

 

[Bluer White]

Trump has zero regard for human life.

JT, could you elaborate?

 

[DaveC]

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Well, that looks frightening...

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

and just like that, nobody's talking about Trump's campaign manager having his house raided by the FBI as part of the Mueller investigation.

The Goal Is Distraction (not Seoul, or even Soul)

 

[LuckyNumber7]

Gosh, I hope not. Pretty sure that's where Bono lives.

Brandon flowers has a flat there, but he's not originally from there.

 

[U2girl]

Kim constantly makes threats that NK will destroy the USA. Or any other apocalyptic statement on how they'll destroy anyone who gets in their way. (and to be fair, so all other dictators).

Bush had his Shock and Awe

Trump now has his fire and fury

With Bush, you got the feeling that he was trying to sound imposing without losing some class of politics.

We don't get that with Trump

Between the two of them, who's to say either White House or Pyongyang *won't budge and preemptively start off the nukes ?

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Between the two of them, who's to say either White House or Pyongyang *won't budge and preemptively start off the nukes ?

Because it's still highly doubtful that Kim has the capability of nuking anyone (see daveC), and it's also equally likely that the US would see a coup before we preemptively nuked North Korea.

 

[anitram]

The other complicating matter which people do not seem to really address at all, at least in Western media which mostly concentrates on weapons grades and numbers of potential casualties/refugees are South Korean attitudes towards reunification. For various reasons we know a number of South Koreans professionally and personally - some living abroad but many in Seoul. The absolutely overwhelming view of these people, who are all younger than 40 is that they do not want reunification, they see themselves as almost entirely culturally distinct from the North and they do not have any emotional ties to a single, unified Korea like their parents or grandparents' generations did. They do not want to support 20 million people economically, they do not want to rebuild their country, they do not want their own country flooded with people who have no concept of modern traditions, values or freedoms. An all out war would place a lot of pressure on South Koreans to accept potentially major changes to their lifestyles and their society. It's one thing if there is appetite for reunification like Germany in 1990 (and even then there were many West Germans apprehensive), but it's really simple minded of us in the west to think that Kim Jong Un can be BBQd by a nuke and then his people will be free and the Korean peninsula will be all sunshine, lollipops and rainbows.

 

[Wide Awake n AZ]

and just like that, nobody's talking about Trump's campaign manager having his house raided by the FBI as part of the Mueller investigation.

The Goal Is Distraction (not Seoul, or even Soul)

Everyone is talking about it. But the other stuff gets talked about too, and talking s**t about the most ridiculous is more fun on a message board.

But I have not talked to one person who I talk with on any kind of level of depth that has not mentioned the raid. The bandwidth to carry on in two different ways, on two different topics, is possessed by most.

I do not buy conspiracy theories in most cases because, like this, they all come unraveled. And the 'doing something big to distract from other big thing' conspiracy is one that I accept might be a goal, but is never successful.

 

[TheFox]

Why does Trump keep baiting KJU? He's at it again. I can't fathom what is going through his mind, is it complete ignorance and stupidity?

 

[BEAL]

Ego. He knows nothing will probably happen, so he wants to win a war of words.

Which will play well with his base, but is making the rest of the world feel uneasy

 

[TheFox]

Ego. He knows nothing will probably happen, so he wants to win a war of words.

Which will play well with his base, but is making the rest of the world feel uneasy

It's incredible really. I find this article interesting as well, the military are nowhere near ready for any conflict...
http://www.defensenews.com/global/a...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Is Trump just blustering for his base?!
What if NK do actually launch towards Guam?

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Why does Trump keep baiting KJU? He's at it again. I can't fathom what is going through his mind, is it complete ignorance and stupidity?

I know he's our president, but honestly, somebody really needs to just muzzle him already and get him to actually STFU for a while, and that goes for any big issue concerning this country right now. He desperately needs to learn that he doesn't have to spout off every crazy thought that pops into his head.

 

[BEAL]

His base loves this. It's nothing but a bully mentality.

We aren't anywhere near ready to go to war, so his comments are just shit talking. And again, Kim isn't going to start a war or try anything because China would most likely unseat him before we even fire one missile

It's also why Kim makes his dumbass comments.

We have two man child playing a game of chicken with millions of lives at stake.

What's even worse, is like Trump's bullying of Jeff Sessions.....Part of me feels for Kim having Trump egg him on. And Kim is no fucking victim. He's a horrible human being.

We need a raid of Trump Towers soon

 

[JTNash]

What baffles me is how can people not see what grave problems Trump causes. We have never been this unstable or unsafe and no one can do anything about it.

 

[DaveC]

We have never been this unstable or unsafe

not even close, dude.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Well, here's something comparatively positive worth focusing on in regards to this whole North Korea thing:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/apnewsbr...orea-regular-contact-143316612--politics.html

WASHINGTON (AP) — Beyond the bluster, the Trump administration has been quietly engaged in back channel diplomacy with North Korea for several months, addressing Americans imprisoned in the communist country and deteriorating relations between the long-time foes, The Associated Press has learned.

It had been known the two sides had discussions to secure the June release of an American university student. But it wasn't known until now that the contacts have continued, or that they have broached matters other than U.S. detainees.

People familiar with the contacts say the interactions have done nothing thus far to quell tensions over North Korea's nuclear weapons and missile advances, which are now fueling fears of military confrontation. But they say the behind-the-scenes discussions could still be a foundation for more serious negotiation, including on North Korea's nuclear weapons, should President Donald Trump and North Korean leader Kim Jong Un put aside the bellicose rhetoric of recent days and endorse a dialogue.

The contacts are occurring regularly between Joseph Yun, the U.S. envoy for North Korea policy, and Pak Song Il, a senior North Korean diplomat at the country's U.N. mission, according to U.S. officials and others briefed on the process. They weren't authorized to discuss the confidential exchanges and spoke on condition of anonymity.

Officials call it the "New York channel." Yun is the only U.S. diplomat in contact with any North Korean counterpart. The communications largely serve as a way to exchange messages, allowing Washington and Pyongyang to relay information.

Drowned out by the furor over Trump's warning to North Korea of "fire and fury like the world has never seen," Secretary of State Rex Tillerson has expressed a willingness to entertain negotiations. His condition: Pyongyang stopping tests of missiles that can now potentially reach the U.S. mainland.

Tillerson has even hinted at an ongoing back channel. "We have other means of communication open to them, to certainly hear from them if they have a desire to want to talk," he said at an Asian security meeting in the Philippines this week.

 

[TheFox]

Trump just doesn't have a clue about anything, what mess he is!

Breaking: President Trump says, "I'm not going to rule out a military option" in Venezuela https://t.co/wJSgobFywz https://t.co/pkXIXHYAl6