US Politics II

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Well it took people nearly 20 years to figure out BEAL wasn't my real name but acronym for the band members haha

And crazy to think I've spent around 18/19 years posting on this site. Discovered it right out of high school when the internet was becoming a bigger thing (in Iowa haha)
 
Anyway you pricks reckon you've got it bad. Today, a refugee locked up in detention by the Australian government killed himself. It's the seventh refugee to kill himself under our laws in the last five years.

And to top it off, the governing Liberal party held an all-party meeting to decide their policy on marriage equality today: do we a) allow a free conscience vote when all MPs, no matter of party lines, can vote what they believe in and gay people can married tomorrow or do we b) pretend to be the government of the people by opening up marriage equality to a plebiscite, thus allowing all Australians to have a say on whether gay people are humans or dogshit.
 
Trumps problem is he doesn't stand for anything. He was an emotionally abused child by a tyrant barron father, was given the keys to the kingdom through his unimpressive educational performance, then literally given the keys to the Trump forture, ran that into the ground numerous times, and is really only a standout in his field for his insane branding of everything Trump. His son-in-law, Jared Kushner, is 10X the business builder, and love or hate him, he took his dad's rag and assets at a time his dad was jailed and destroyed publically, and set off on an impressive, if not also villain, plan to restore his family name and destroy all that hurt his family, including the other family members who turned on Jared's dad. And, most famously, the prosecutor turned gov of NJ turned deposed transition leader Chris Christie, who prosecuted his dad and had some rather choice words for the media about the Kushner family name. So, back to Trump...his children were mostly raised by their moms, and if they were in NY, they lived a life of a twisted Diff'rent Strokes in 68th floor penthouses with more rooms than they had cells on their body. Trump destroyed the family fortune but rebuilt because anyone with that level of power can always rebuild. His most brilliant move was to convince the world the Trump brand was golden...he sold the NYC development world the same bill of goods he sold us. He has never stood for anything but himself. His dad was awful to him, and he is awful to most of his kids. But they are driven by a loyalty to the Trump name...branding at the family level...and are stepping out of their comfort zones and beliefs to win. That is what Kushner and the baby Trumps have in common...overbearing fathers who robbed them of a real childhood who they feel the need to protect, no matter what. They view their advocacy as a game to win, not by the content they are having to uphold. Ivanka has been clear on LBGTQ+ rights, but her dad is destroying that. There were family beliefs on climate change that have been discarded in favor of winning.

Except...they aren't winning. They are losing. So they double down. This is a game to win to each of them. There isn't a single deeply held principal in play here. There is no advocacy here. This is about beating the people who they have engaged as the enemy.


Which is why he is most dangerous. The person who believes in nothing is the hardest to contain.
 
I wish the notion that Trump "ran the fortune into the ground" would go away.

He can be mocked for his inability of his wealth to keep up with simpler investments, this is true. But to suggest he somehow fucked it all up royally is a disservice to the attempt to discredit Donald Trump. He's successful as a businessman. He's also a scumbag. Accept reality. It doesn't help the folks against him if an alternative reality is painted.
 
I wish the notion that Trump "ran the fortune into the ground" would go away.

He can be mocked for his inability of his wealth to keep up with simpler investments, this is true. But to suggest he somehow fucked it all up royally is a disservice to the attempt to discredit Donald Trump. He's successful as a businessman. He's also a scumbag. Accept reality. It doesn't help the folks against him if an alternative reality is painted.

His inherited position as estimated, if invested in the safest of mutual funds, would have far outflanked his current value.

He has run his companies at a net minus against the most basic and safety funds in the market. He has declared bankruptcy for business lines, and he has burned vendors. He overreached in some of the safest real estate markets in the world. His Atlantic City folly was committed in the face of warnings and clear signs of danger.

I accept financial reality. The financial reality is he has had far more "bad runs" than any normal businessman gets, and it is because, to use a card analogy, he had stacks. There is very little he has done that wasn't paint-by-numbers obvious to someone with his capital that hasn't failed...in the real estate world. And mostly in his small endeavors, though the TV thing was very successful. But that isn't what the brand is about, and his actual performance from inherited position to current position financially is pedestrian, to be kind, compared to the potential. He has not shown to be a great businessman. Or even a good one. When dealing from that position of power, in the NYC market, it is unfathomable how he made his mistakes other than associating them with pure ego.

Yeah...he is wealthy. He was given a real estate company in NYC...well, he was allowed to "borrow" against inheritance to make his first deal, which was the equivalent of a ball placed on a tee. So, in the late 70's, he gets to buy up Manhattan against inheritance. About 6 people in that business had the position to do that. It was where his dad did his deals, and where he grew up. He did not come to NYC with the foresight of a genius. He just played Monopoly in a city that was set to explode in value.

Translate that however you like.
 
I wish the notion that Trump "ran the fortune into the ground" would go away.

He can be mocked for his inability of his wealth to keep up with simpler investments, this is true. But to suggest he somehow fucked it all up royally is a disservice to the attempt to discredit Donald Trump. He's successful as a businessman. He's also a scumbag. Accept reality. It doesn't help the folks against him if an alternative reality is painted.



What exactly would define "ran into the ground" for you? Trump by his own admission(we really don't know), but several billion in debt at one time.

What would be your definition?
 
I wish the notion that Trump "ran the fortune into the ground" would go away.

He can be mocked for his inability of his wealth to keep up with simpler investments, this is true. But to suggest he somehow fucked it all up royally is a disservice to the attempt to discredit Donald Trump. He's successful as a businessman. He's also a scumbag. Accept reality. It doesn't help the folks against him if an alternative reality is painted.
He's successful as a con man. As the con is his business, then yes, he's a successful businessman.

His image is a lie, and his rebuilt wealth is built off that lie. He's developed one major piece of real estate in the past 20 years, which oh so happened to be financed by a bank that was recently fined half a billion dollars for laundering Russian money.

Thr majority of Trump buildings aren't owned or developed by Trump. They're merely licensing deals.
 
He's successful as a con man. As the con is his business, then yes, he's a successful businessman.

His image is a lie, and his rebuilt wealth is built off that lie. He's developed one major piece of real estate in the past 20 years, which oh so happened to be financed by a bank that was recently fined half a billion dollars for laundering Russian money.

Thr majority of Trump buildings aren't owned or developed by Trump. They're merely licensing deals.



All of these things are valid points.

Painting the picture of him as a colossal failure otherwise implies he isn't still a rich billionaire who lives a luxurious life and conned his way up to the highest public office in the world.

There's reality, and there's actuality.
 
What exactly would define "ran into the ground" for you? Trump by his own admission(we really don't know), but several billion in debt at one time.

What would be your definition?



I never described him as a self made man. If he truly drove something into the ground and was unable to otherwise be successful, he wouldn't have so much. It's clear that he's a con and he's not actually that good at what he does, of course. But when you fail to adequately criticize him for that specifically, you come off as silly when talking about how much of a failure he is as he bathes in his gold faucet bathtub aboard his private commercial aircraft.
 
I never described him as a self made man. If he truly drove something into the ground and was unable to otherwise be successful, he wouldn't have so much. It's clear that he's a con and he's not actually that good at what he does, of course. But when you fail to adequately criticize him for that specifically, you come off as silly when talking about how much of a failure he is as he bathes in his gold faucet bathtub aboard his private commercial aircraft.



You and I would have been labeled failures, because using credit to pay off credit and not being cash positive would be deemed failure by most definitions. Starting from privilege allowed him to keep the gold faucets, normalizing and trying to label that as successful is part of the myth that got us here.
 
I never described him as a self made man. If he truly drove something into the ground and was unable to otherwise be successful, he wouldn't have so much. It's clear that he's a con and he's not actually that good at what he does, of course. But when you fail to adequately criticize him for that specifically, you come off as silly when talking about how much of a failure he is as he bathes in his gold faucet bathtub aboard his private commercial aircraft.
He helped drive an entire city into the ground by destroying it's main industry through overspending, and though "deals" that were only beneficial to him.

His casinos lost billions of dollars. Billions. Yet through multiple bankruptcies he managed to skate by with just enough. Again, cause he's a con. He's good at being a con. He's good at selling a false image of success. That's his #1 product, and yea; business is a booming.

Just look at Trump SoHo. The crown jewel. Not a dime of Trump money spent on it. Not. A. Dime. But the two companies that did fund the building? Well lookie there - Russian. One of whom happens to have been found guilty of fraud and racketeering.

The only banks that would touch him after his utter failures in the casino world were foreign banks with shady dealings. These are not conspiracies, either. They're easily verified facts.

Guy's always been a fraud, and he just sold his greatest con ever.
 
You and I would have been labeled failures, because using credit to pay off credit and not being cash positive would be deemed failure by most definitions. Starting from privilege allowed him to keep the gold faucets, normalizing and trying to label that as successful is part of the myth that got us here.



Starting from privilege did not allow him to keep anything. I don't know how you came to that conclusion. He's a conman. That's how he got to keep his gold faucets. He's built up a false image. A name. An understanding of his success, even if it's not actually true. But thereby he's managed to, in reality, be successful.

Many things got us here. I love how you're accusing me of "normalizing" his success. Contrary. You normalized his media incited hysteria from day one, and fell right into his conman trap. Anyone who gave that man the light of day by being offended or shocked or whatever was just as conned as the folks who bought into his vision. Turn off the tv and go outside (unfortunately it's too late for that now, though).
 
Starting from privilege did not allow him to keep anything. I don't know how you came to that conclusion. He's a conman. That's how he got to keep his gold faucets. He's built up a false image. A name. An understanding of his success, even if it's not actually true. But thereby he's managed to, in reality, be successful.

Many things got us here. I love how you're accusing me of "normalizing" his success. Contrary. You normalized his media incited hysteria from day one, and fell right into his conman trap. Anyone who gave that man the light of day by being offended or shocked or whatever was just as conned as the folks who bought into his vision. Turn off the tv and go outside (unfortunately it's too late for that now, though).



Media incited hysteria?! Wow. Pointing out he's a conman from day one is not falling for anything, calling it 'success' is normalizing. How do you not see the difference? You've tried far too hard to blame others for paying attention to him, but he was already put on an alter from day one by his minions, you don't expose a conman by calling him successful.
 
I give him this - he's an incredibly successful con-man. Just the best cons. The biggest concern (literally).

I would consider him to be wealthy.

Good businesses don't have to rely on shady foreign banks and put down significantly larger amounts of cash than any other developer would be expected to put down due to a large history of defaulting on loans, like what he had to do for the Old Post Office.

Ultimately I think this is a dumb argument. Both parties agree he's a con man. It's symantics whether you believe being someone who's grown wealthy through cons and shady dealings should be considered a success. By the pure definition of the word, yea - he's been successful in his line of work, in the same way Al Capone was a success in his line of work.
 
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I think that it's obvious that he is wealthy.

I don't believe that he is anywhere nearly as wealthy as he projects and makes it seem.

I would also hope that somebody of his wealth could get tailored suits that fit and a proper haircut but I guess that's neither here nor there.

Your typical nouveau riche - tacky, ugly and insecure.
 
I give him this - he's an incredibly successful con-man. Just the best cons. The biggest concern (literally).

I would consider him to be wealthy.

Good businesses don't have to rely on shady foreign banks and put down significantly larger amounts of cash than any other developer would be expected to put down due to a large history of defaulting on loans, like what he had to do for the Old Post Office.

Ultimately I think this is a dumb argument. Both parties agree he's a con man. It's symantics whether you believe being someone who's grown wealthy through cons and shady dealings should be considered a success. By the pure definition of the word, yea - he's been successful in his line of work, in the same way Al Capone was a success in his line of work.



I'm not arguing with you... because I agree with you. I think there are two separate conversations going on at once.
 
Media incited hysteria?! Wow. Pointing out he's a conman from day one is not falling for anything, calling it 'success' is normalizing. How do you not see the difference? You've tried far too hard to blame others for paying attention to him, but he was already put on an alter from day one by his minions, you don't expose a conman by calling him successful.



Wow! Yes, incited hysteria. Listen to the next outrageous thing Donald has said on his campaign trail. Take him seriously when he's illegitimate and you legitimize him. He fueled all press being good press because you couldn't look away from his train wreck.

Pfft. Whatever man. Im "normalizing" his success. Open your eyes. He didn't need me to get what he has. He needed your voice to bring him to the table for serious discussion.
 
Wow! Yes, incited hysteria. Listen to the next outrageous thing Donald has said on his campaign trail. Take him seriously when he's illegitimate and you legitimize him. He fueled all press being good press because you couldn't look away from his train wreck.

Pfft. Whatever man. Im "normalizing" his success. Open your eyes. He didn't need me to get what he has. He needed your voice to bring him to the table for serious discussion.



How does that work? He announced, the day of the likes of ironhorse, orangeie, bobsagett, and company touted him as the next Jesus, but somehow my pointing out his hypocrisies and lies brought him to the table? In what world?!
 
Possible. What was President Trump's inherited position?

His inherited position is not exactly known. His father set up numerous trusts that provided him income, and the cash value of the business when his father passed is not known, and was after Trump was operating on his own.

What he had was the ability to "borrow" against his inheritance to purchase properties, such as the Grand Hyatt project in 78 that established his company. So, what he had, essentially, was an open line of credit with his father, with any interest paid if payment was made re-funding his own inheritance, allowing him to purchase properties in Manhattan. In the 70s and 80s. NYC. The market was bullet-proof and he came to age at the low of NYC. He couldn't screw it up. Unless he overreached, like into casinos in Atlantic City, or with ancillary businesses. He managed to take an open invitation to buy NYC properties in Manhattan in the 80s and run it into the ground on numerous occasions. He had a "can't lose" set up and managed to lose. Think of NYC in the 80s. Look at property values now.

He was playing Monopoly, but the bank was right there for him to grab from when needed. The bank was dad. He just landed on an opportunity (space) and said "yeah...I will put a hotel here". It was that easy for him to enter the toughest real estate market in the nation/maybe the world. The average developer would have wound up in the East River trying to make entry to Manhattan in the 70s and 80s.

His dad's gift was more than whatever cash value and property were bequeathed to him...it was the open door and access to funds in the property market.
 
How does that work? He announced, the day of the likes of ironhorse, orangeie, bobsagett, and company touted him as the next Jesus, but somehow my pointing out his hypocrisies and lies brought him to the table? In what world?!



We all know Trump was not some overnight front runner the day he announced his candidacy. Come on...
 
You kidding? Look in the mirror man. You're flat out rude and have cranked up the condescending tone to the utter maximum. It's unbearable.



You have the shortest fuse of FYM, all I said was your memory sucks. I didn't call you a name, didn't call you a problem, didn't say to piss off, and as for tone you should reread your posts.
 
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Back on to topic

So...we're gonna go back to war with North Korea aren't we? Kinda feels like the build up to Iraq with the news stories coming out weekly about advances in weapons they are making.

Part of me wonders if other countries are trying their best to troll/ruin Trump's golf vacation? Cause a stir during an off week cause you know it'll irritate the fuck out of him

Assume when the vacation is over, GOP will focus on tax "reform"
 
You have the shortest fuse of FYM, all I said was your memory sucks. I didn't call you a name, didn't call you a problem, didn't say to piss off, and as for tone you should reread your posts.



Please cite me having a "short fuse" in relation to anyone who wasn't a brick wall of a Trump supporter in an FYM topic. Things I lose my cool on... the usage of the term "fake news," poor interpretations of statistics and polling...

People who know me in real life would probably suggest the opposite of what you've said. So, I would say to slander my memory as a way of telling me I'm wrong is fairly insulting. You talk to everyone that way, though. It's such a dominating sound in here, your voice.
 
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