Unschooling - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-19-2010, 01:01 PM   #16
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Strong Badia
Posts: 3,430
Local Time: 04:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
I wasn't referring to home-schooled children. I was referring to parents who let their kids do whatever they want.
True. I wasn't talking to you -- BVS drew the connecting line between unschooling and homeschooling. I'm not in favor of unschooling either; I agree about standards. My point was simply that home schooling actually does conform to state education standards and is an acceptable alternative form of education.
__________________

__________________
nathan1977 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2010, 01:19 PM   #17
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,697
Local Time: 10:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
(Subjective statements probably include ones like "home schooling doesn't work," don't you think?)
I meant strictly from a standards perspective. Was there anything stopping your parent from helping you on those yearly tests? Because there isn't in many states.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
According to the study, almost 25 percent of the students were enrolled in one or more grade levels above their age-level peers in public school. In my case, I was reading at a seventh-grade level when I was six.
This is why I'm confused. You stated:

Quote:
Actually, it's not. According to the US Dept of Education, the average home schooled 8th grade student performs four grade levels above the national average;
The average 8th grader is performing like a senior in high school? The AVERAGE? So where are all these Doogie Howsers?

But then you say:

Quote:
one in four home school students are enrolled in a grade level that is above their age level; and in every grade, in every subject, home schooled students outperform both public and private school students.
So why are only 25% enrolled in only one grade level higher if the average is four grade levels higher?




Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
Actually, you'd be mistaken. According to the US DOT, the race of the student doesn't make a difference. In grades K-12, both white and minority students scored in the 87th percentile on average. In math, whites scored in the 82nd percentile while minorities scored in the 77th. By contrast, white public school eighth graders scored nationally the 58th percentile in math and the 57th percentile in reading. Black eighth grade students, on the other hand, scored at the 24th percentile in math and the 28th percentile in reading. Hispanics scored at the 29th percentile in math and the 28th percentile in reading.
Who mentioned race? By background I meant did they come from a long line of higher education? Is the average income level higher for home school than public school? Etc... I said nothing of race.
__________________

__________________
BVS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2010, 01:36 PM   #18
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 11:08 AM
Those "standards" always seemed ridiculous and arbitrary to me. I went to a private school so the only ones we did were ones which granted us college money from the state. Going into college, most of the entry level courses we were required to take felt remedial. So, like most homeschoolers, I didn't take those standard tests nor was the curriculum obsessed with them but my grades have always been competitive.

I think there's a vast range of why people homeschool and how well academically and socially that the kids compete, but for as weird as it seems, pretty much everyone I've met who was homeschooled was "normal" if not on the smart side. Most people I know that do it are doing it for cost, b/c the public schools here are a joke (50% graduation rate at the high school that would have been my district and that's already with a laughable grading scale) and private schooling costs $7500/yr per kid. Charter academies are pretty popular.
__________________
Liesje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2010, 01:42 PM   #19
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Strong Badia
Posts: 3,430
Local Time: 04:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
I meant strictly from a standards perspective. Was there anything stopping your parent from helping you on those yearly tests? Because there isn't in many states.
Since at least one-third of polled home-schooled families were religious, I'm willing to bet they honor the code when it comes to yearly tests. Mine sure did.

Quote:
So why are only 25% enrolled in only one grade level higher if the average is four grade levels higher?
State standards. This was exactly my story -- I was enrolled one grade higher even though I was doing much higher level work. The state doesn't have anything in place to evaluate eight-year-olds doing high-school-level English.

Quote:
Who mentioned race? By background I meant did they come from a long line of higher education?
You asked about background. There is a common misconception that there's a gap between urban and suburban kids. It's just that -- a misconception.

In terms of parent's education levels, the most recent statistics I have say that 20% of homeschooling parents have only a high school diploma, which makes the performance of their kids that much more notable.
__________________
nathan1977 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2010, 01:58 PM   #20
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,697
Local Time: 10:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liesje View Post
Those "standards" always seemed ridiculous and arbitrary to me. I went to a private school so the only ones we did were ones which granted us college money from the state. Going into college, most of the entry level courses we were required to take felt remedial. So, like most homeschoolers, I didn't take those standard tests nor was the curriculum obsessed with them but my grades have always been competitive.
But here's my point about "standards", what is keeping a parent from indoctrinating their child in false history or science?

This is really my only fear with home schooling, well this and the social factors.

If a parent is going to indoctrinate their child, then more likely it's going to happen no matter what, but if they are going to school then at least they are given the tools to question. But if their parent's version of history/ science is the only version of history/ science then the child is not going to be equipped.

That is why I have a problem with the laxed standards.

Most of the home schooled people I know are wicked smart, but severely lack in other areas. They lacked certain social skills, were scarily inept about sex ed, and the majority ended up in the same professions as their parents.
__________________
BVS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2010, 03:14 PM   #21
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 11:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
But here's my point about "standards", what is keeping a parent from indoctrinating their child in false history or science?
Nothing but this is not unique to homeschooling, that happens in any type of private/religion-based education. I was taught exclusively creationism for nearly 20 years and indoctrinated to recite all sorts of crap but I still know better. Actually I would have received a more comprehensive and accurate education (from that perspective) at home with my mom. I may not agree with a parent's reasoning to homeschool/private school or what they are teaching their kids, but it's still their right and probably won't make the kids any dumber as far as reasoning, logic, math skills, reading comprehension, etc where it doesn't really matter what material is used as long as the kids learn to do the work. If I have kids around here and the public school is in the same predicament, I'll probably send my kids to the nearest Lutheran school even though I am not and have never been Lutheran. It's a good, safe school with good quality education.
__________________
Liesje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2010, 04:11 PM   #22
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,697
Local Time: 10:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liesje View Post
Nothing but this is not unique to homeschooling, that happens in any type of private/religion-based education. I was taught exclusively creationism for nearly 20 years and indoctrinated to recite all sorts of crap but I still know better.
What do you think help you question the validity of creationism?

This is a good point, and every private school is quite different, but I think at least in a private school setting you have peers that hopefully can create a checks and balance. I remember in college there was a professor that was teaching some incredibly questionable and hateful "science" about race, and enough students got together to question him and the department and got him fired. So in this case the students were the checks and balance, sometimes it's standards testing, or maybe just another staff member.

I just think when your sole means of educations comes from just one person, it can be quite dangerous.

Maybe you went to private school and came home to parents that provided a slightly different perspective, or vice versa. I just think when you take that away, you have to be very careful.
__________________
BVS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2010, 04:41 PM   #23
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 11:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
What do you think help you question the validity of creationism?
I really don't know for sure.

It's not that I'm a skeptic or a pessimist who is always questioning everything, but I guess I've always believe in my core that if there is a God that really is in charge of *everything*, then science and religion must be complimentary and not at odds; it would only make sense that science and creation are God-willed, regardless of how exactly it happened. I have studied (both by force and by my own will) lots of Protestant theology and have always liked the concept of General Revelation - that God reveals himself through creation - not the act of creation, but the physical world in general - which is something tangible and accessible to everyone, everywhere (whereas Special Revelation is God revealed through the Bible via the Holy Spirit which sucks if you live on some remote island and don't have an NIV). I was raised in a religious family, going to church and private schools (though that has every bit to do with the quality of the education than the doctrine), but I have never connected on a spiritual level. However every once in a while I see or hear something that is miraculous, to me, and I can see why people believe in God. But none of these moments happen at church or while I'm in the classroom pouring over a 400-year old sermon.

Also if you look at the Christian creation story and take into account how, when, and by whom it was written it is just obvious that it is not meant to be any sort of chronological account of factual events.

Anywho....
__________________
Liesje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2010, 05:09 PM   #24
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 05:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liesje View Post
I have thought the opposite - that too many kids are allowed to make too many choices. I'm not talking about high schoolers, but kids like first grades whose parents let them choose what to eat, when to eat, what to wear, whether they are too sick to go to school, etc, etc ad infinitum. Kids are too young to make their own choices about everything. I don't mean to offend any parents or anything but parenting is very much like training dogs - both need consistency, structure, and discipline. Allowing them to make too many choices sets them up for too many possible failures and learned helplessness while limited the choices to all good outcomes sets them up for success.
Ho hum. Are we discussing the raising of automatons, or human beings here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liesje View Post
Also if there's one thing I cannot stand it's a kid with an entitlement attitude.
They're the ones that change the world.
__________________
financeguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2010, 08:51 PM   #25
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 11:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by financeguy View Post
Ho hum. Are we discussing the raising of automatons, or human beings here?

They're the ones that change the world.
I am talking about first graders.

Someone very close to me is so hands-off with her kids, that eventually they grew up to be spoiled brats. They don't know how to relate well to their peers because they never learned things like sharing, compromises, personal space, respect for others and others' possessions, how do figure things out with a group of kids instead of having someone do it for them. My experience has been that when you let a child make every choice on their own, they learn to do the absolute least that they have to to get by. By being allowed to choose everything they've never challenged themselves, they don't know what real success is because they can barely tie their own shoes, and have no coping skills when things don't go exactly their way.

But, I do think that a big problem in lower grades is that school is all busy work. When I think of what I did when I was in first grade, I just remember fun stuff like reading picture books, growing a bean seed in different types of soil, raising a mealworm in oatmeal, learning to count money, how to make a new shape from several smaller shapes, etc. When Phil was in the failing public school, all the work he had to have the kids do was math and reading, worksheet after worksheet. They did very little science and all the fun projects I suggested, there was no time for because they needed to finish all the workbooks that cover the precious "standards" and for what? The failure rate was absurd and the school is rife with violence. It cannot meet even the lowest academic standards. Oh and most of these kids had all the freedom at home any kid could have, with no parent or guardian around.
__________________
Liesje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2010, 09:29 AM   #26
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 24,996
Local Time: 11:08 AM
I agree with Liesje

I think people raised with a sense of entitlement and the feeling that they are the center of the universe are the ones who F up this world.

Of course helicopter parents who are constantly hovering and trying to protect their kids from every possible failure (learning experience) are just as bad as the laissez faire. There has to be a healthy medium. Both are raising the kids to think they are entitled and the center of the universe.

Those parents in the GMA story seemed to be in a refrigerator coma-or something. Of course they can raise their kids however they see fit-but I just don't get it.
__________________
MrsSpringsteen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2010, 09:50 AM   #27
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 11:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsSpringsteen View Post
Of course helicopter parents who are constantly hovering and trying to protect their kids from every possible failure (learning experience) are just as bad as the laissez faire.
To me they are one in the same, because if it really boils down to allowing the child to make all the choices on their own, they choose to have their parents bend to their every whim and do everything for them, they learn they can squeak by doing the absolute least possible because someone else is there to wipe their faces and clean up their mess. Why would a kid choose to do homework instead of play outside, eat their spinach instead of candy, challenge themselves with a more difficult book, scrub the floor instead of play Wii...if they didn't have to?
__________________
Liesje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2010, 10:47 AM   #28
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 09:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liesje View Post
eat their spinach instead of candy...
I must be honest, I still struggle with this.
__________________
AEON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2010, 02:46 PM   #29
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 05:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liesje View Post
But, I do think that a big problem in lower grades is that school is all busy work. When I think of what I did when I was in first grade, I just remember fun stuff like reading picture books, growing a bean seed in different types of soil, raising a mealworm in oatmeal, learning to count money, how to make a new shape from several smaller shapes, etc. When Phil was in the failing public school, all the work he had to have the kids do was math and reading, worksheet after worksheet. They did very little science and all the fun projects I suggested, there was no time for because they needed to finish all the workbooks that cover the precious "standards" and for what? The failure rate was absurd and the school is rife with violence. It cannot meet even the lowest academic standards. Oh and most of these kids had all the freedom at home any kid could have, with no parent or guardian around.
In that case we are in agreement.
__________________
financeguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2010, 02:48 PM   #30
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 05:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsSpringsteen View Post
I agree with Liesje

I think people raised with a sense of entitlement and the feeling that they are the center of the universe are the ones who F up this world.
I think maybe I have a different conception of what is meant by sense of entitlement. I am not referring to material things but to inculcating intellectual freedom and the idea that one can do anything one sets ones mind to, that sort of thing.
__________________

__________________
financeguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com