United States of Entropy Part 2 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 12-22-2013, 03:12 PM   #1
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,653
Local Time: 04:53 AM
United States of Entropy Part 2

I didn't know what else to call this thread, and since it is a continuation of the first one, I decided to give it a Part 2.

Even though the unemployment rate may be going down in the U.S., and the economy is supposedly turning around, things are still tough for many people. HuffPo ran several profiles on the working poor - people who work full time but barely make ends meet.

Quote:
A good job may be hard to find in this tepid recovery, but low-wage work still abounds. Whether it's washing dishes, serving Big Macs or folding sweaters for a store display, low-paying jobs have been added to the American economy at a fairly brisk clip since the recession ended in 2009. Middle- and high-paying jobs, not so much.

By one estimate, one in four private-sector jobs in the U.S. now pays less than $10 per hour, well below a living wage in many areas of the country. Compared to better-paying positions, these jobs are also more likely to come without regular schedules or benefits, like health care coverage, paid vacation time or sick leave -- the basic trappings of middle-class work. In other words, employment doesn't guarantee a life above the poverty line; according to census data, more than one in 10 Americans who work full-time are still poor.
Quote:
They eat what they can afford, rather than what they want. Some avoid going to the doctor, even when they're gravely ill. Others turn off the hot water in their homes and wear clothes given to them by friends.
More Than 1 In 10 Americans Who Work Full Time Are Still Poor


'I May Die Broke. I May Get More Poor. I May Turn Around And Get Money Again. I Just Don't Know.'

What is so irritating is that in the comments section, it is appalling to see the lack of empathy some people have. Some are like, "oh big deal, the average poor American is wealthier than someone in Bangladesh". Other are saying, "they shouldn't have worked in that field or made bad money decisions. That's what they get."

Yes, this is only the comments section, but it is also what many Americans believe. It is upsetting to see many think that just because someone made unwise professional and/or financial decisions, they deserve to struggle. Even if they worked in a field that did well before 2008, there are still so many chiding them. Why should making mistakes mean paying for it with your health and sanity? It's not like they committed crimes or did anything illegal. They made mistakes, and there are plenty who admit they caused their own problems. Why should they suffer like this? They'd love to get off food stamps and get a better salary, so they're obviously not "lazy welfare bums" many think everyone on welfare is.

Rant over. For now.
__________________

__________________
Pearl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2013, 06:58 AM   #2
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 06:53 PM
Take heart that those unliveable wages are shifting the companies burden of paying their workers onto the taxpayer, where it belongs!.
__________________

__________________
A_Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2013, 08:48 PM   #3
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 02:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl View Post

"oh big deal, the average poor American is wealthier than someone in Bangladesh"
It might seem heartless (and maybe some of the comments you read were) but comparing "the poor" is not an unworthy way to judge economic systems, economic health over a span of time or economic policies. Look at any data and it will show you for instance that it's much better to be "poor" in a free market country than in a centrally-controlled economy. Much better to be "poor" in an economy that promotes prosperity and growth rather than one that promotes equality of outcome.
__________________
INDY500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2013, 09:21 PM   #4
ONE
love, blood, life
 
digitize's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Dallas and around the Texas Triangle
Posts: 13,962
Local Time: 02:53 AM
United States of Entropy Part 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
It might seem heartless (and maybe some of the comments you read were) but comparing "the poor" is not an unworthy way to judge economic systems, economic health over a span of time or economic policies. Look at any data and it will show you for instance that it's much better to be "poor" in a free market country than in a centrally-controlled economy. Much better to be "poor" in an economy that promotes prosperity and growth rather than one that promotes equality of outcome.

I basically agree with this, but I think that you and I (and many others here) fundamentally disagree on where equality of opportunity ends and equality of outcome begins.
__________________
digitize is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2013, 09:35 PM   #5
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,294
Local Time: 03:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Look at any data and it will show you for instance that it's much better to be "poor" in a free market country than in a centrally-controlled economy.
Except that this isn't an either/or proposition, but rather a spectrum from one extreme of the free market to the extreme of the centrally-controlled economy.
__________________
anitram is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2013, 12:48 AM   #6
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 01:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
... rather than one that promotes equality of outcome.
Is this happening anywhere? Has it really been tried (even on a small scale?). I know the occasional politician runs on this concept - and a few revolutions have "promised" to make this happen, but has there really been a full-fledged effort to have nationwide, income equality?
__________________
AEON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2013, 11:55 AM   #7
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,653
Local Time: 04:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
It might seem heartless (and maybe some of the comments you read were) but comparing "the poor" is not an unworthy way to judge economic systems, economic health over a span of time or economic policies. Look at any data and it will show you for instance that it's much better to be "poor" in a free market country than in a centrally-controlled economy. Much better to be "poor" in an economy that promotes prosperity and growth rather than one that promotes equality of outcome.
But its difficult to promote prosperity and growth when it isn't always guaranteed. The economy will fluctuate, industries change due to advancing technology, factories are moved overseas for cheaper wages, and younger people are more likely to be hired than someone over 50. A free market may allow opportunities for financial and professional success, but there many other factors that prevent that, as we are seeing nowadays.
__________________
Pearl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2013, 12:03 PM   #8
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,653
Local Time: 04:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AEON View Post
Is this happening anywhere? Has it really been tried (even on a small scale?). I know the occasional politician runs on this concept - and a few revolutions have "promised" to make this happen, but has there really been a full-fledged effort to have nationwide, income equality?
I don't think its possible to have income equality. Firstly, some professions naturally deserve higher wages than others. Should a store cashier make as much as an accountant?

Also, even if there was income equality, how people spend their paychecks is another matter. There are many who aren't financially smart, whether they make 30K, 50K or 100K. One thing to learn from this recession is the importance of being financially responsible and have some common sense. It is recommended to save enough money, such as eight months to a year's worth of your take-home money, to support yourself in times of a crisis. At the same time, there is no reason to live beyond your means and drive up your credit card debt. I remember one math class I took in high school gave a brief lesson on budgeting. But I don't remember any budgeting workshops while I was in college. Financial responsibility needs to be promoted more, IMO.
__________________
Pearl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2013, 09:15 PM   #9
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 02:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
I don't think its possible to have income equality. Firstly, some professions naturally deserve higher wages than others. Should a store cashier make as much as an accountant?

Also, even if there was income equality, how people spend their paychecks is another matter. There are many who aren't financially smart, whether they make 30K, 50K or 100K. One thing to learn from this recession is the importance of being financially responsible and have some common sense. It is recommended to save enough money, such as eight months to a year's worth of your take-home money, to support yourself in times of a crisis. At the same time, there is no reason to live beyond your means and drive up your credit card debt. I remember one math class I took in high school gave a brief lesson on budgeting. But I don't remember any budgeting workshops while I was in college. Financial responsibility needs to be promoted more, IMO.
Great post!!
__________________
INDY500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2013, 02:48 AM   #10
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 01:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
...some professions naturally deserve higher wages than others.
.
I no longer believe this.
__________________
AEON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2013, 08:09 AM   #11
Blue Crack Supplier
 
IWasBored's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 36,504
Local Time: 04:53 AM
You can't tell me the person who dispatches my truck to calls should be compensated the same as I am. They sit inside and answer the phones, and I get crazy drunk people spitting at me (plus, there's a whole level of responsibility that's different as well. If they send me to the wrong street, well even if my response if delayed because it, only in the most extreme of circumstances are those repercussions going to come close to what happens to me if I push the wrong medications and kill someone).
__________________
IWasBored is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2013, 10:19 AM   #12
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,653
Local Time: 04:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AEON View Post
I no longer believe this.
From one angle, it would make sense for everyone to make the same wage. But in reality, it doesn't. Why should someone who is a cashier at a Pathmark make $80K a year? I do agree that the minimum wage should be raised to $10 - $ 12, but some jobs are too simple to garner that much of a wage (although it is certainly not simple to deal with insane customers, long hours, and having a smile on your face when all you really want to do is scream).

I do think salaries and wages to be reassessed, but I also don't think we should go that far. I even think perhaps an prospective employee's situation should be looked into. If a 35 year old divorced mother of two who lost her job a year ago and is applying for that supermarket cashier job, I think she should get paid a lot more than a high school student. How much, I can't say since I am not an economist or anything.

I've been thinking a lot about how uncertain the job market and the professional world can be, and I really feel there needs to be more of an obligation to support those who lose their jobs due to advancing technology or the job is moved overseas. Who should be obligated and how is something I am still trying to figure out. Once I have my thoughts in order, I'll post them here.
__________________
Pearl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2013, 01:28 PM   #13
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 01:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
Why should someone who is a cashier at a Pathmark make $80K a year?
Why should someone who loses billions of dollars at a bank make tens of millions of dollars in salary?

In Plato's Republic, the best of the best could not accept money and lived in barracks.
__________________
AEON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2013, 02:26 PM   #14
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 01:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by IWasBored View Post
You can't tell me the person who dispatches my truck to calls should be compensated the same as I am. They sit inside and answer the phones, and I get crazy drunk people spitting at me (plus, there's a whole level of responsibility that's different as well. If they send me to the wrong street, well even if my response if delayed because it, only in the most extreme of circumstances are those repercussions going to come close to what happens to me if I push the wrong medications and kill someone).
You are aware - that within 10 to 20 years - both your job and the job of the dispatcher will be obsolete to AI, drones, robots...etc.

Also - combat medics make far less than you, yet it could be argued their work is more dangerous and stressful. Should you be paid less to match them, or should they be paid more to match you?
__________________
AEON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2013, 02:51 PM   #15
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,653
Local Time: 04:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AEON View Post
Why should someone who loses billions of dollars at a bank make tens of millions of dollars in salary?

In Plato's Republic, the best of the best could not accept money and lived in barracks.
I'm not talking about Wall Street, though. I'm talking about everyday workers.

How much of Plato's Republic do you support? His vision included no families, and children raised in orphanage-like places who never knew their parents and their parents never knew them.
__________________

__________________
Pearl is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com