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Old 12-26-2013, 04:13 PM   #16
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I'm not talking about Wall Street, though. I'm talking about everyday workers.

How much of Plato's Republic do you support? His vision included no families, and children raised in orphanage-like places who never knew their parents and their parents never knew them.
True - I don't support everything in this (or any other) utopic vision, but I do like the concept of the Guardians and the Philosopher-king.

As we enter the Age of Abundance - where energy is dirt cheap and any material can be fabricated on demand by additive printers, there will be less focus on wealth and salary and more focus on creativity and contribution. Traditional "high paying" jobs like doctors and lawyers will soon be obsolete.

Hoarding wealth and resources likely won't be possible when people can "have" just about any "thing" they want - when they want it.
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Old 12-26-2013, 09:53 PM   #17
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True - I don't support everything in this (or any other) utopic vision, but I do like the concept of the Guardians and the Philosopher-king.

As we enter the Age of Abundance - where energy is dirt cheap and any material can be fabricated on demand by additive printers, there will be less focus on wealth and salary and more focus on creativity and contribution. Traditional "high paying" jobs like doctors and lawyers will soon be obsolete.
So anyone can do a lung transplant or reattach a torn retina in AEONLAND? Anyone can throw a 100 mph fastball, write a #1 pop song, invent a duck call or blueprint a 100 story skyscraper?
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Hoarding wealth and resources likely won't be possible when people can "have" just about any "thing" they want - when they want it.
Are there patents, copyrights, private property, borders or commerce or are we talking one worldwide free-love/all-you-can-eat/this-land-is-your-land-this-land-is-my-land commune?

I'm sorry to be so cynical but... really? Me, I like the incentive of self-interest tempered by Matthew 7:12.
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Old 12-27-2013, 12:06 AM   #18
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Are there patents, copyrights, private property, borders or commerce or are we talking one worldwide free-love/all-you-can-eat/this-land-is-your-land-this-land-is-my-land commune?

I'm sorry to be so cynical but... really? Me, I like the incentive of self-interest tempered by Matthew 7:12.
I'm confused. I highly doubt AEON is referring to anything hippie-like at all. I mean, free love? I fail to understand where you came up with that idea.

But while we are on the subject of communes and even communism...

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And all who believed were together and had all things in common,
and they sold their possessions and goods and divided them among all men, as every man had need.
- Acts 2:44-45
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Old 12-27-2013, 12:13 AM   #19
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Jesus, at least according to Paul of Tarsus, was practically a free-love communist hippie that believed in wealth redistribution.

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Originally Posted by Romans 15:1-3
We who are strong have an obligation to bear with the failings of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to build him up. For Christ did not please himself, but as it is written, “The reproaches of those who reproached you fell on me.”
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Old 12-27-2013, 03:01 AM   #20
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So anyone can do a lung transplant or reattach a torn retina in AEONLAND? Anyone can throw a 100 mph fastball, write a #1 pop song, invent a duck call or blueprint a 100 story skyscraper?
We all have tapped and untapped capabilities. Also, in AEONLAND - meaning 20 years or so in the future if you pay at least a little attention to the science articles being published on a daily basis - people won't be the ones doing lung transplants and everyone will be able to throw a 100 mph fastball if they wish. We will rethink what it means to compete because for the most part - we will be working together to explore the universe . Furthermore, in what religion or moral philosophy is it considered a noble goal to be "better" than someone else? (other than Nietzche perhaps). Other have mentioned Jesus - the very Son of God. He chose to be a humble carpenter/drifter instead of an Emperor.
It is noble to hold others up, not push them down.

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Are there patents, copyrights, private property, borders or commerce or are we talking one worldwide free-love/all-you-can-eat/this-land-is-your-land-this-land-is-my-land commune?
It started with open-source software. It's a model that is now spreading through research.

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I'm sorry to be so cynical but... really? Me, I like the incentive of self-interest tempered by Matthew 7:12.
It won't be easy. So many will fight to keep their pennies until they finally realize, they are worthless.


start here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology
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Old 12-27-2013, 03:05 AM   #21
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I'm confused. I highly doubt AEON is referring to anything hippie-like at all. I mean, free love? I fail to understand where you came up with that idea.

But while we are on the subject of communes and even communism...


I'm glad you quoted that part of the Book of Acts. The Red State Christian Republicans need to have these verses thumped over their head over and over again. Then perhaps they will stop being the foot soldiers for the wealthy.
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Old 12-27-2013, 03:07 AM   #22
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Jesus, at least according to Paul of Tarsus, was practically a free-love communist hippie that believed in wealth redistribution.
Yes he was and yes he did.
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Old 12-27-2013, 12:25 PM   #23
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More news from "AEONLAND":

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The long-range revolutionary potential of developments at the nanoscale will come from atomically precise manufacturing, a technology analogous to digital information technologies or 3D printing: a general-purpose way to make intricate patterns of something, in this case, patterns of advanced materials that form advanced products of all kinds. An engineering analysis shows that costs of production can be extraordinarily low in terms of labor, materials, energy, and environmental impact, while product performance can be at or beyond today's state of the art.
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Old 12-27-2013, 12:55 PM   #24
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You are aware - that within 10 to 20 years - both your job and the job of the dispatcher will be obsolete to AI, drones, robots...etc.

Also - combat medics make far less than you, yet it could be argued their work is more dangerous and stressful. Should you be paid less to match them, or should they be paid more to match you?
Not sure how robots replacing me in a decade is in anyway related to how much money I should or shouldn't make now. Maybe I missed something with the changing in pages on this thread, but I have no idea where you're going with this anymore.
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Old 12-27-2013, 01:03 PM   #25
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Not sure how robots replacing me in a decade is in anyway related to how much money I should or shouldn't make now. Maybe I missed something with the changing in pages on this thread, but I have no idea where you're going with this anymore.
I suppose it was more of an indirect and more polite way of saying that you're not special. Also - I pointed out there are currently men and women who work more difficult/dangerous jobs than you, yet get paid less.

This notion of "deserve" is the notion I'm challenging.
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Old 12-27-2013, 01:07 PM   #26
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The notion of deserve is a requirement with the system we have built in place, where value comes from work. You need to challenge the system as a whole before you can even start discussing this idea.
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Old 12-27-2013, 01:25 PM   #27
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The notion of deserve is a requirement with the system we have built in place, where value comes from work. You need to challenge the system as a whole before you can even start discussing this idea.
That's being challenged daily with all the unemployed twenty-somethings that were told they would "deserve" job if they finished college. There are numerous highly intelligent, highly educated people sitting on the sidelines of the economy because of technology and corporate greed.

The current system of "dues" and "reward" is outdated - designed for a different age.
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Old 12-27-2013, 08:15 PM   #28
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We all have tapped and untapped capabilities. Also, in AEONLAND - meaning 20 years or so in the future if you pay at least a little attention to the science articles being published on a daily basis - people won't be the ones doing lung transplants and everyone will be able to throw a 100 mph fastball if they wish. We will rethink what it means to compete because for the most part - we will be working together to explore the universe.
Hey, I like science fiction too (which is not to say that many unimaginable technologies will see fruition in the next 20 years) but put me down as a dystopian rather than a universalist utopian. It is the nature of man I'm afraid. The individual liberty and human rights enjoyed by Western civilization the past 400 years is the great exception not the rule. And the technologies you dream of in the hands of tyrants will lead to hell on earth.
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Furthermore, in what religion or moral philosophy is it considered a noble goal to be "better" than someone else? (other than Nietzche perhaps).
Wrong way to look at it. It's not comparing to others it's comparing to our God given potential. Everyone is blessed with some talent and they owe it to themselves and to God to develop them. Some are rarer than others or more in demand in a meritocracy (which leads to income inequality) but I don't see that as a bad thing.
Now which religion teaches that joy is found in money or coveting the possessions of another?

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Other have mentioned Jesus - the very Son of God. He chose to be a humble carpenter/drifter instead of an Emperor.
It is noble to hold others up, not push them down.

[/url]
I agree. You won't find me degrading "burger-flipper jobs" or such. Anyone can serve God through their work.
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Old 12-27-2013, 11:54 PM   #29
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Hey, I like science fiction too (which is not to say that many unimaginable technologies will see fruition in the next 20 years) but put me down as a dystopian rather than a universalist utopian. It is the nature of man I'm afraid. The individual liberty and human rights enjoyed by Western civilization the past 400 years is the great exception not the rule. And the technologies you dream of in the hands of tyrants will lead to hell on earth.
I can understand your skepticism about mankind. We've certainly earned it. I suppose I remain optimistic about technology it because it seems that there are only two real possibilities: A Star Trek-type future or human extinction. Since it's not much fun thinking about our demise, I'm concentrating on my future application to Start Fleet (after they've restored my body to 22 year old health and vigor).

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Wrong way to look at it. It's not comparing to others it's comparing to our God given potential. Everyone is blessed with some talent and they owe it to themselves and to God to develop them. Some are rarer than others or more in demand in a meritocracy (which leads to income inequality) but I don't see that as a bad thing.
Should that be measured in money? Would a non-Olsteen Christ agree with you on this? I agree with you about reaching our God-given potential, I just don't think there needs to be a salary "level" attached to the measurement of that goal.

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Now which religion teaches that joy is found in money or coveting the possessions of another?
I think you lost me here...


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I agree. You won't find me degrading "burger-flipper jobs" or such. Anyone can serve God through their work.
Yes, and I contend that if every human being was guaranteed food, shelter, and safety - we would see an absolute explosion of creativity and service.
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Old 12-28-2013, 04:26 AM   #30
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I suppose it was more of an indirect and more polite way of saying that you're not special. Also - I pointed out there are currently men and women who work more difficult/dangerous jobs than you, yet get paid less.

This notion of "deserve" is the notion I'm challenging.
Got it, you took my example to be me bitching that I'm underpaid, which I wasn't saying. I was just using the most immediate example I could think of. but this wouldn't be fym if people didn't make assumptions like that. Half the debates in here are people explaining and re-explaining their point when someone misunderstands/adds their own implications to a post. Like the part about how you're under the impression that I don't think people with more dangerous/stressful/demanding/requiring more education or more responsibility deserve to be paid better than I do--now maybe you're not accusing me of hypocrisy and I'm just as guilty of reading too much into your post as you appear to be. Sure, I think a combat medic should be paid more to perform their job than me as a civilian medic. If I subscribe to the belief that I should be paid more than the dispatcher, why wouldn't I think someone who does my job x 20 under the threat of enemy attack is worthy of better compensation? It has nothing to do with being special.
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