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Old 11-04-2009, 07:17 PM   #1
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Unconstitutional Healthcare

Prayer doesn't help people heal, and the state shouldn't be giving money for religious stupidity
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Backed by some of the most powerful members of the Senate, a little-noticed provision in the healthcare overhaul bill would require insurers to consider covering Christian Science prayer treatments as medical expenses.

The provision was inserted by Sen. Orrin G. Hatch (R-Utah) with the support of Democratic Sens. John F. Kerry and the late Edward M. Kennedy, both of Massachusetts, home to the headquarters of the Church of Christ, Scientist.

The measure would put Christian Science prayer treatments -- which substitute for or supplement medical treatments -- on the same footing as clinical medicine. While not mentioning the church by name, it would prohibit discrimination against "religious and spiritual healthcare.


It would have a minor effect on the overall cost of the bill -- Christian Science is a small church, and the prayer treatments can cost as little as $20 a day. But it has nevertheless stirred an intense controversy over the constitutional separation of church and state, and the possibility that other churches might seek reimbursements for so-called spiritual healing.

Phil Davis, a senior Christian Science Church official, said prayer treatment was an effective alternative to conventional healthcare.

"We are making the case for this, believing there is a connection between healthcare and spirituality," said Davis, who distributed 11,000 letters last week to Senate officials urging support for the measure.

"We think this is an important aspect of the solution, when you are talking about not only keeping the cost down, but finding effective healthcare," he said.

The provision would apply only to insurance policies offered on a proposed exchange where consumers could shop for plans that meet standards set by the government.

But critics say the measure could have a broader effect, conferring new status and medical legitimacy on practices that lie outside the realm of science.
Healthcare provision seeks to embrace prayer treatments -- latimes.com


For a study of how prayer doesn't help, and can be positively harmful, see the link below.

Elsevier: Article Locator
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Old 11-04-2009, 07:25 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by A_Wanderer View Post
Prayer doesn't help people heal, and the state shouldn't be giving money for religious stupidity


Stop Making Sense

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Old 11-05-2009, 12:43 AM   #3
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what the hell. this is absolutely ludicrous. i can't believe the government is even wasting money discussing this. prayer does not heal a person, i'm sorry. i'm a christian and i do pray, but i'm not naive enough to believe that alone will fix something. you can look at it with anything, like say a job. you can pray 24/7 that god gives you a job. but unless you actually get up and look for one, you'll never find one. we're meant to rely on god, but we're not supposed to be lazy morons who expect him to do everything.

religion should have absolutely no part in anything that the government does or pays for. we have separation of church and state for a reason. i think it's bad enough "under god" was added to the pledge of allegiance, letting federal-run insurance pay for these "treatments" is unconstitutional and wrong. i think parents who pray instead of seeking help for their children should be charged with gross negligence, not receiving money to pay for this.
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Old 11-05-2009, 12:46 AM   #4
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this is one of the dumbest fucking things i've heard, and the fact that it's even close to debatable is idiotic.
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Old 11-05-2009, 12:57 AM   #5
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this is one of the dumbest fucking things i've heard, and the fact that it's even close to debatable is idiotic.
^This.

I've been making statements like this for the last 12 years.

Separating Church from State actually empowers the Church. When are religious nuts going to realize this.
I thought the whole point of missionary religions is to win over people's hearts, but at some point that became too hard, so they went for the legislative route. Dumb.
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Old 11-05-2009, 04:49 AM   #6
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The measure would put Christian Science prayer treatments -- which substitute for or supplement medical treatments -- on the same footing as clinical medicine. While not mentioning the church by name, it would prohibit discrimination against "religious and spiritual healthcare."

It would have a minor effect on the overall cost of the bill -- Christian Science is a small church, and the prayer treatments can cost as little as $20 a day. But it has nevertheless stirred an intense controversy over the constitutional separation of church and state, and the possibility that other churches might seek reimbursements for so-called spiritual healing.

Phil Davis, a senior Christian Science Church official, said prayer treatment was an effective alternative to conventional healthcare.

"We are making the case for this, believing there is a connection between healthcare and spirituality," said Davis, who distributed 11,000 letters last week to Senate officials urging support for the measure.

"We think this is an important aspect of the solution, when you are talking about not only keeping the cost down, but finding effective healthcare," he said.

The provision would apply only to insurance policies offered on a proposed exchange where consumers could shop for plans that meet standards set by the government.
I will pray for $15 a day. (H1N1 prayers are $17, the vaccine is $25) Contact me for my pay-pal account no.

Hurry, I limit myself to only 100 sick patients a day.
Any more, the praying is too exhausting.
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Old 11-05-2009, 05:03 AM   #7
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Do you give in-house prayers or would we have to come to your place?
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Old 11-05-2009, 12:03 PM   #8
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Oh no!! Next thing you know Congress will pass, and the president will sign, an unconstitutional bill declaring a National Day of Prayer be held each year.
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Old 11-05-2009, 03:59 PM   #9
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Is the bigger problem that the Church is involved or that it's what the Church would be applying as treatment?

Because if it were a Church-based wellness clinic that did cheaper (sound) medical treatments, along with prayer, it could effectively save money. As long as there is 'real' medicine involved, why not? When the Govt hands out food stamps and a person goes to a Christian retailer to buy food of some sort, is this a violation? I don't see it.

Isn't the issue here, not that the Church is involved at all but in that prayer is anything but a real practice of medicine?
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Old 11-05-2009, 06:12 PM   #10
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The Church involvement is an issue, so is the fact that prayer doesn't work.

I also oppose supporting homeopathy through public healthcare.
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Old 11-05-2009, 06:37 PM   #11
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It has apparently been fixed
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Today, the House of Representatives released a version of the health care reform bill that does not require private and public health plans to cover spiritual care, including reimbursements to Christian Science practitioners who pray for members when they are ill. Should a universal health care package cover spiritual care?

Shirley Paulson, a Chicago area Christian Science practitioner, said people should have the freedom to choose whatever works.

"To me it’s just another option," she said. "If we’re all going to help each other in this it would be better for everybody to have more options ... The medical people would be the first to say they don’t solve everything ... So many people came into Christian Science because the medical world didn’t help them."

Sean Faircloth, executive director of the Secular Coalition for America, the national lobby for atheists, agnostics, humanists and freethinkers, hailed the decision as a victory for common sense.

"Requiring American taxpayers to reimburse Christian Scientists and other religious sects that deny themselves and their children necessary medical care would have been incredibly unethical in addition to a violation of church state separation," Faircloth said. "Their actions demonstrate that common sense secular values are being heard in the halls of Congress. ... If this language had been included, tax payers would be forced to help foot the bill for this religion-based care offering no scientific evidence of effectiveness."

But Paulson said politicians and opponents to spiritual care need to learn the difference between faith healing and Christian Science treatment. Contrary to popular belief, the Church of Christ Scientist founded in 1866 by Mary Baker Eddy, does not bar its members from seeking medical treatment.

Not to mention, she and others who gather for healing testimonies every Wednesday at Christian Science churches across the nation can attest to the effectiveness of prayer. Documented recoveries also can be found in the Christian Science Journal and Christian Science Sentinelavailable in any Christian Science Reading Room.

"If they knew our record better they wouldn’t be so hesitant," she said. "They didn’t realize it’s not a church rule that you can’t have medicine ... They assume a fervent devotee would be willing to sacrifice themselves or anybody else for the sake of getting closer to God."
The Seeker: Should health care package cover prayer?
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Old 11-06-2009, 03:03 AM   #12
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Prayer doesn't have any cost overhead, does it?
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