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Old 10-19-2011, 08:54 PM   #16
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let me know when it is the end of 'Christian' America

or better yet, 'Religious' America.


So, I'm assuming you think the Christians and religion really messed up
America.

Please post another country or civilization that has given its citizens
more freedoms.
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Old 10-19-2011, 09:31 PM   #17
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Please post another country or civilization that has given its citizens
more freedoms.
Religion didn't give us those freedoms.

Come to think of it, if you're trying to correlate Christian nations with freedom, those that actually were Christian nations (as in, Christianity was the national religion) granted far less freedoms than our Democratic nation.
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Old 10-19-2011, 09:34 PM   #18
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Religion didn't give us those freedoms.

Then what did?
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Old 10-19-2011, 09:39 PM   #19
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A little something called democracy?
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Old 10-19-2011, 09:45 PM   #20
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So, I'm assuming you think the Christians and religion really messed up
America.

Please post another country or civilization that has given its citizens
more freedoms.
I don't have a problem if people want to be Christian or Religious
those are personal life style choices.


Vegetarianism, Veganism are personal life style choices.

I don't believe laws should be put into place to support or encourage life style choices. To protect a person's right to choose them or not,
may be a different situation.
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Old 10-19-2011, 09:45 PM   #21
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A little something called democracy?

I agree.

What group promoted that idea in Western civilization?
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Old 10-19-2011, 09:51 PM   #22
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Then what did?
If you go back and really look at it, the few early settlers you are thinking of were really not what would be considered 'main stream' Christians.
They would be more like odd ball cultists. The larger respectable Christian groups had no use for these fringe sects.
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Old 10-19-2011, 09:57 PM   #23
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If you go back and really look at it, the few early settlers you are thinking of were really not what would be considered 'main stream' Christians.
They would be more like odd ball cultists. The larger respectable Christian groups had no use for these fringe sects.

The larger repectable Christian groups, you refer to, were the ones repressing
religious and personal freedoms in Europe.

It was the "fringe sects" that broke out and brought us this freedom we enjoy today.
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Old 10-19-2011, 10:06 PM   #24
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I agree.

What group promoted that idea in Western civilization?

Come on, take off your blinders.
The American Revolution was about economics. period

There was no real charity, christian decency driving it.
It was only economics. The English had made agreements with the Natives about not expanding into more of their land. The English had what they wanted, colonies on the coast with ports for trading. The colonists wanted more free land for the stealing.

If these settlers had good Christian values motivating them, instead of personal economics, then why did they not abolish slavery? and respect their fellow man "created in the image of God" the natives?
Simple answer, economics, greed, breaking the commandment of 'not coveting the neighbor's property".

People tend to do what is in their best (most profitable) interests.
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Old 10-19-2011, 10:21 PM   #25
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Come on, take off your blinders.
The American Revolution was about economics. period

There was no real charity, christian decency driving it.
It was only economics. The English had made agreements with the Natives about not expanding into more of their land. The English had what they wanted, colonies on the coast with ports for trading. The colonists wanted more free land for the stealing.

If these settlers had good Christian values motivating them, instead of personal economics, then why did they not abolish slavery? and respect their fellow man "created in the image of God" the natives?
Simple answer, economics, greed, breaking the commandment of 'not coveting the neighbor's property".

People tend to do what is in their best (most profitable) interests.



I guess we can start with this:


"The American Revolution was about economics. period"


What facts do you have to support that statement?

Not trying to be picky here, but that is a strong defintive answer you gave.
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Old 10-19-2011, 10:31 PM   #26
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here is a decent start,

it does mention the part about the English having treaties with the Natives that the Colonists wanted to abolish so they could steal their land.

this isn't mentioned very much in American Schools, put in a book, and it might get banned?

American Revolution - Causes of the American Revolution
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Old 10-19-2011, 11:25 PM   #27
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I guess we can start with this:


"The American Revolution was about economics. period"


What facts do you have to support that statement?

Not trying to be picky here, but that is a strong defintive answer you gave.

I don't dislike the 'founding fathers' there are some very good people mixed in there, the documents they came up with are pretty good.

I just don't want to sugar coat it and create myths. It is not necessary. The more accurate story is better than the myths and exaggerations.
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Old 10-19-2011, 11:40 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the iron horse

What group promoted that idea in Western civilization?
Was it a white group, Christian group, white haired group, libertarian group, bored housewives group, an AA group? Why don't you tell us exactly how you group them?
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Old 10-19-2011, 11:55 PM   #29
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jesus, why the hostility

Ironhorse seems to be a decent, caring person that seems to believe that America is founded on Judeo Christian values, that belief is held by a very large portion of Americans, I was taught that, I guess I used to buy into it.

After doing my own independent investigations, I no longer believe that.
I meet and work with people that still hold that belief. I hope I would never be rude to them for not thinking the same way that I do.
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Old 10-20-2011, 12:04 AM   #30
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jesus, why the hostility

Ironhorse seems to be a decent, caring person that seems to believe that America is founded on Judeo Christian values, that belief is held by a very large portion of Americans, I was taught that, I guess I used to buy into it.

After doing my own independent investigations, I no longer believe that.
I meet and work with people that still hold that belief. I hope I would never be rude to them for not thinking the same way that I do.
All I did was ask questions. It's not like I stated that someone had blinders on.
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