U S Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, a Democrat, shot at public appearance!!

[AliEnvy]

Do you believe that Americans are just innately more violent? Because, according to you, it has nothing got to do with the gun laws, so I'm just curious as to your perspective on why it is the average murder rate by shooting is much higher in the US than Europe.

The Psychogeography of Gun Violence - Richard Florida - National - The Atlantic

It is the nature of the culture of honor itself and the way it acts on and through marginalized young males, just like Loughner. The culture of honor, as Nisbett describes it, sees violence as an "appropriate response to insults" and as "a means of self-protection."

Numerous media reports note that Loughner grew more obsessed with Congresswoman Giffords after he felt she did not give him a respectful answer to the question he asked her at an earlier forum. Then there are the results of the University of Oklahoma study which finds the culture of honor to be a particularly robust predictor of high school violence, especially among young males who have been marginalized, bullied, rejected, or faced other "honor threats." And, Nisbett's some two-decades-old warning that the culture of honor is not something that is necessarily geographically bounded but seems to spreading into broader aspects of young male working-class enclaves in both urban and rural communities is as prescient as it is chilling.

 

[PhilsFan]

The right-wing media is a watchdog on the left. I know you don't look at it that way but that is how we view ourselves.

That's absurd. The right-wind media is there for two simple purposes:

1. Make money.
2. Support conservative politics by any means necessary.

And that's it. There's literally no other purpose to them. To dupe yourself into believing your right wing pundits are some kind of watchdog group bravely taking on the "mainstream establishment" is just that, duping yourself.

Is there a more blatant example of Fox News being full of shit than the Al-Waleed bin Talal incident? That's an example of pure propaganda and fear mongering. Do you need me to explain that whole thing to you?

 

[Irvine511]

That's absurd. The right-wind media is there for two simple purposes:

1. Make money.

actually, i'd say just this simple purpose.

i'm paraphrasing conservative David Frum, but i believe he wrote: "we all thought that Fox News worked or us; in truth, we all work for Fox News."

 

[AliEnvy]

These maps make it pretty clear that increased gun safety regulations = fewer gun-related deaths.

Number of Deaths Due to Injury by Firearms per 100,000 Population, 2007

http://www.statehealthfacts.org/comparemaptable.jsp?ind=113&cat=2

States with assault weapons bans

Firearms and Children Legislation - Kaiser State Health Facts

States with safe gun storage requirements

Firearms and Children Legislation - Kaiser State Health Facts

States which require trigger locks on guns

Firearms and Children Legislation - Kaiser State Health Facts

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Rush is the one pointing out what the left won't.

Er, no.

It's not bad but the narrative that strong speech has to be curtailed won't happen because political parties want to win and they have real disagreements. So to me it's basically irrelevant. It's always been heated but it appears more so because of easy access to it with 24 hour news and internet. One should take a break from it now and then but it's always going to be there. Governments always want to send a message to the public and the opposition wants to find holes in that message.

What exactly does any of this have to do with the video clip? There was nothing in there about curtailing strong speech-Jon may have said we should strive to be nicer to each other and maybe think a bit more about what we say, or be strong and passionate without having to be insulting, but that's more of a wish, a hope. It's hardly asking to curtail strong speech.

Yes, unfortunately, this sort of attitude will always exist, but that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt to try and at least temper it a little. Disagreement is a-ok, heck, it's welcomed-life would be boring if everyone agreed on everything. But it doesn't need to descend into mudslinging and insults and sweeping generalizations about an entire political mindset.

Since anger comes from helplessness and obstacles to goals, any difference of policy will conjure negative emotions because most people have a functioning amygdala. It's possible to control reactions to it but the negative sensations will come when:

-policies you don't like and think are dangerous get passed
-you perceive your side gets mischaracterized

That's true of many things, yes, but there are moments where I'll disagree with a policy, but it's not really something to get angry over. Everyone has their emotional triggers, but there's also those issues where they go, "Meh" *Shrug*.

Angela

 

[BVS]

Well if it's just opinions with no facts then I believe it should be ignored at the minimum.

I would just like you to wake up to see it for what it is. I want you to be able to look at that Rush example you posted and understand that it's not just reaction. I know conservatives that still listen to Rush, but they understand what he is, you've haven't seemed to get there yet.

I did. The access to the invective can be too much and people should take a break now and then but as long as there are differences on what people believe makes a great country there will be anger and rhetoric. If you agree with Jon Stewart well that's great but the right is arguing with the others that overblew it (MSM).

Well if you watched it you would understand Jon was talking about the political climate in general and not specifically about this event. Of course I agree with Jon, any sensible person should regardless of politics. Maybe you should try watching it again?

Well I posted that video to show exactly what I was talking about because you said I was misinformed. I don't think so.

But that video didn't show one thing to back up your ignorant comment. Not one.

Banishing ignorance is important but the argument is about what we are ignorant about and the left and right don't agree on what is ignorance and what is a good fact. That's why there's debate.

Perfect example of why I said what I said. You don't respect education. You still treat fact like opinion. There is no "good fact" "bad fact", there's just fact. Now how you use the facts may be up for debate, but the facts are not. The sooner you understand this the better you'll be at this.

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

But what if we had the most strict gun laws possible, and he was unable to attain a gun? He could have just taken a kitchen knife and stabbed her outright. I'm not trying to make a point about guns. The point I'm trying to make is that even when someone, like Loughner, is known to have serious issues and threatening to others, you can't fucking do anything about it until they go out and do something terrible! I mean come on, everyone at the college he went to knew he was seriously fucked up, and they were scared of him. But they didn't tell the authorites (not that they could have done much), they just told him to leave, and become someone else's problem. In todays society you can't force a disturbed person into a mental institution, even if they really need it, until something tragic like this happens. Then it's too late for everyone. It just seems pretty backwards to me.

Some people are pressing for the death penalty, but I don't see that happening because of his mental state. They're probably just throw him in a mental ward the rest of his life, where he should have been in the first place.

 

[Irvine511]

i'm still trying to wrap my head around this "blood libel" on Sarah Palin.

TPM said it best: "Today has been set aside to honor the victims of the Tucson massacre. And Sarah Palin has apparently decided she's one of them."

 

[Irvine511]

But what if we had the most strict gun laws possible, and he was unable to attain a gun? He could have just taken a kitchen knife and stabbed her outright.

i'm sure he would have been able to knife 19 other people to deal and kill 6 of them.

knives and guns are the same.

In todays society you can't force a disturbed person into a mental institution, even if they really need it, until something tragic like this happens.

let's not cut funding for mental health services then?

 

[AliEnvy]

She's also apparently decided she's Jewish. Or just wanted to throw an anti-Semitic slur out there. Adding insult to injury on a few levels.

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

These maps make it pretty clear that increased gun safety regulations = fewer gun-related deaths.

You could also make the argument that there's more gun related deaths in cities and poor communities.

i'm sure he would have been able to knife 19 other people to deal and kill 6 of them.

knives and guns are the same.

You missed my point.

 

[BVS]

But what if we had the most strict gun laws possible, and he was unable to attain a gun? He could have just taken a kitchen knife and stabbed her outright.

Do you honestly think he could have killed and injured that many people with one knife?

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

That's not what I was trying to say!

What I'm saying is that a mentally disturbed person doesn't need a gun to go out and do something terrible.

 

[Irvine511]

You missed my point.

no, i didn't. it's the argument that's made all the time -- "people who want to kill will still find a way to kill."

maybe. but it will be an awful lot harder without a semiautomatic. i prefer my odds against a knife.

 

[Irvine511]

She's also apparently decided she's Jewish. Or just wanted to throw an anti-Semitic slur out there. Adding insult to injury on a few levels.

Giffords is Jewish.

the mind boggles.

 

[BVS]

That's not what I was trying to say!

What I'm saying is that a mentally disturbed person doesn't need a gun to go out and do something terrible.

But you seemed to have been applying that guns laws wouldn't have changed anything, I'm saying they would have. More lives would have been saved.

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

no, i didn't. it's the argument that's made all the time -- "people who want to kill will still find a way to kill."

maybe. but it will be an awful lot harder without a semiautomatic. i prefer my odds against a knife.

What I'm saying is that everytime a tragedy like this happens, its commited by people who were known to have issues, and nothing was done to help correct them. Because nothing really can be done. Because even when they pose great risk to violence, you can't force them against their will to get help.

But you seemed to have been applying that guns laws wouldn't have changed anything, I'm saying they would have. More lives would have been saved.

Oh no, they certainly would have changed everything. In fact I believe I was the first to post a rant about how ass backwards the background check for buying firearms is, about 15 pages ago. Everyone was talking about Sarah Palin though so it went unnoticed.

EDIT: It was on page 14 in-between all the talk about Sarah Palin if you're interested.

 

[AliEnvy]

Giffords is Jewish.

the mind boggles.

Yes. And the blood of a Christian child was spilled.

I truly hope she didn't actually know what she was saying.

 

[Irvine511]

What I'm saying is that everytime a tragedy like this happens, its commited by people who were known to have issues, and nothing was done to help correct them. Because nothing really can be done. Because even when they pose great risk to violence, you can't force them against their will to get help.

we can prevent them from buying semiautomatics.

 

[Irvine511]

I truly hope she didn't actually know what she was saying.

considering most of her communication is barely literate, i think you're hopes are correct.

but, really, someone should have known better.

though if you trip through the right wing blogs, they all think she looked positively presidential.

she's totally running. this makes Romney happy. and Obama.

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

we can prevent them from buying semiautomatics.

So as long as they don't have access to guns, who the fuck cares what they do?

 

[Irvine511]

So as long as they don't have access to guns, who the fuck cares what they do?

no.

if they don't have access to guns, they'll do a fuck of a lot less.

dealing with the mentally ill is a whole other issue, but it seems as if restricting access to deadly weapons would be a fairly good place to start.

also, slashing mental health services because people think their taxes are too high or, worse, because mental health services are often provided by the hated, feared government, is probably not the best way to deal with the mentally ill.

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

Agreed.

 

[Diemen]

The right-wing media is a watchdog on the left. I know you don't look at it that way but that is how we view ourselves.

I really don't see to many conservative news people projecting that mentality. Besides, you seem to be setting the conservative media up as an equal but opposite reaction to the liberal media. Wouldn't it be a more worthy goal to set up a media point of view that values objectivity and rigorous journalistic standards above all else, if those are the things you find lacking out there?

Well you seem to be annoyed by angry discussion more than what is said but there are huge implications in saying that happiness is improved when envy is removed by making a country more equal in outcomes. I look at envy as a defilement and a personal problem that one has to get over. I wouldn't feel great in a country that tried to limit my reasonable rewards for reasonable effort and talent. I also think an important part of happiness is being able to be responsible for myself than trying to off load it as much as possible to bureaucrats (especially in creating boring equal outcomes). I agree with the video that much of the market is based on status but that is more a consumeristic point of view that we should criticize and a better way would be for people to get over their envy and start making personal goals that people strive for instead of comparing themselves to others based on what they can buy. Capitalism is about capital. If people compete on status they are likely not going to have any capital but lots of debt. There will always be inequality of outcomes even in Sweden so to me creating more opportunities is a more realistic goal and leave it up to people to learn from their own mistakes. People should only look to others for inspiration or lessons on what not to do. They should not look at other people as diminishing their own happiness because they have better results.

What? This long ramble of yours has absolutely nothing to do with what Jon Stewart said. Jon Stewart's comments were entirely apolitical. It does a great disservice to your argument when you go off on tangents like this, or simply assume you know what someone is going to say without even hearing it. There isn't one big "liberal agenda" that everyone who isn't conservative fits into. Everyone who isn't conservative isn't "the opposition."

 

[kramwest1]

How would Jared Loughner have gotten a gun if he hadn't gone to a store and bought it? Everyone just goes "He'd obtain it illegally!" and just assume that makes sense.

When people talk about this, I feel like they're always thinking in terms of someone just driving down to "the hood" and buying a gun off some gangbanger, and it makes no sense to me that this just works with no great explanation.

Lax gun laws are a massive problem.

Illegally obtaining a gun means everything from buying it on the street, buying it off the books from a dealer, or buying one from a private individual and not reporting the sale in jursidictions that might require it.

Perhaps the easiest way to illegally obtain a gun is to steal one from a private home. This happens all of the time. Many people who own guns are still incredibly lax about storing them safely and securely

The point being, it is not hard to get a gun legally or illegally. But, the sticky part of the equation is the enforcement. We need so much more funding for enforcement of many things. I doubt (especially in this climate) that governments (state or federal) will allocate more money for enforcing gun laws, let alone enacting more gun laws.

So, we need to create a society where people who want to commit crimes like this have the opportunity to get help--voluntarily or involuntarily. This speaks to our need for more mental health funding and probably is some of the difference between the U.S., Canada and Europe in terms of violence.

 

[deep]

I don't know if this has been posted yet,

but, contrary to earlier reports, he shot her in the front, (face) left side and the bullet exited the back of her head. through and through

 

[purpleoscar]

I really don't see to many conservative news people projecting that mentality. Besides, you seem to be setting the conservative media up as an equal but opposite reaction to the liberal media. Wouldn't it be a more worthy goal to set up a media point of view that values objectivity and rigorous journalistic standards above all else, if those are the things you find lacking out there?

I find that Fox News in the basic news does that but the conservative commentary is no different than editorial commentary in newspapers. I wouldn't treat the two the same.

What? This long ramble of yours has absolutely nothing to do with what Jon Stewart said. Jon Stewart's comments were entirely apolitical. It does a great disservice to your argument when you go off on tangents like this, or simply assume you know what someone is going to say without even hearing it. There isn't one big "liberal agenda" that everyone who isn't conservative fits into. Everyone who isn't conservative isn't "the opposition."

BVS already corrected me on that. I was talking about the video I posted.

I would just like you to wake up to see it for what it is. I want you to be able to look at that Rush example you posted and understand that it's not just reaction. I know conservatives that still listen to Rush, but they understand what he is, you've haven't seemed to get there yet.

I don't agree with him in all areas but in enough areas to see how well he frames how liberals think and I feel it's more accurate than most shows or programs. I don't listen to only Rush Limbaugh. He's good for analyzing news stories and lurking for left-wing bias. If you want to understand where conservatives come from you have to go into books.

Well if you watched it you would understand Jon was talking about the political climate in general and not specifically about this event. Of course I agree with Jon, any sensible person should regardless of politics. Maybe you should try watching it again?

I don't have a problem with what he said other than his wish is only a wish. When we actually start seeing shows that have actual lively debate without games there will be camps for either side.

But that video didn't show one thing to back up your ignorant comment. Not one.

That video talks about happiness being better with more equal outcome societies and included in the examples is Sweden. Then it says that there's no difference between equality happening naturally (my preference) versus distributing weath to achieve it. My criticism of it is accidentally posted on the post I made for Diemen because I thought he was talking about my video but he was talking about Jon Stewart. The Spirit Level is popular with leftists and is considered influential. If it's not for you, oh well....

 

[Diemen]

This is not the liberal dream you're looking for

BVS already corrected me on that. I was talking about the video I posted.

...

The Spirit Level is popular with leftists and is considered influential. If it's not for you, oh well....

I think you're reaching a bit far with this one. I suspect the number of liberals who are aware of and influenced by The Spirit Level is quite a bit smaller than the number of liberals you think are aware of it and influenced by it. Maybe some far leftists, but they're hardly in control of the "liberal agenda" as a whole. I think you could also find a large swath of self-professed liberals who don't identify with it either.

 

[BVS]

I don't agree with him in all areas but in enough areas to see how well he frames how liberals think and I feel it's more accurate than most shows or programs.

tried to frame Rush to be do not tell their audience how other groups think. What you're
Well that's the problem, don't let someone else tell you how other groups think. Find out for yourself. That's real education. News or watchdog goups or everything else you've describing is called propaganda.

That video talks about happiness being better with more equal outcome societies and included in the examples is Sweden.

Yeah, I watched the video, but it didn't talk about how the media is wanting to shape the U.S. That was your original statement. You've shown NOTHING to back that up.

The Spirit Level is popular with leftists and is considered influential. If it's not for you, oh well....

Did Rush tell you this? I can guarantee you the majority of people you label "leftist" have not even heard of the "Spirit Level".

This is exactly why so many question your grasp on reality.

 

[AliEnvy]

Obama's speech at the memorial service in Tucson will stream live at 8pm ET.

CBS News Live Video - CBS News