U S Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, a Democrat, shot at public appearance!!

[deep]

If members of the Westborough Baptist "Church" show up to any of the funerals, they will be blocked by over 400 of us who have agreed to peacefully stand in front of them so that the mourners may mourn in peace. I plan on bringing earplugs.

bring them some fresh buttplugs.

 

[dazzledbylight]

I hope you're not trying to dismiss the idea that there are prominent FAR-LEFT people in Washington, journalism, the media, society, etc...

Actually, there are now a hell of a lot more moderate Republicans in Congress than moderate Democrats. This is a fact.

Oh please. That's just pathetic.

Making this quick as to not derail the thread;
Conservative Republicans and Conservatives have hated many of the polices that been put in place by liberal, and some moderate Democrats since the Dpression (of the 1930's) such as Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid.

They have been irching to get into full power to take down these programs among other) one way or another. Newt Gingrich "Medicare to wither on the vine", during the "Contract On America" years of the in the 90's.

other here already commented on your other 2 points, and I agree with them.

 

[purpleoscar]

That you consider Foxnews a "clear representation of a conservative point of view" is what's wrong with the conservative movement these days. FoxNews is an echo chamber and a chief propagator of the overblown rhetoric that passes for political discourse these days, and wields entirely too much influence within that party. I can't think of a single so-called "liberal media" organization that wields so much power that Democratic candidates fear crossing it. When's the last time a prominent Republican politician disagreed with FoxNews or Rush Limbaugh without issuing a public apology days later for daring to part from the groupthink?

Thank God for Rush Limbaugh. People like him are the reason for conservative media in the first place. There was very little before that. I seriously doubt we will agree on almost anything. The fact that I name the main TV news stations, academia, and Hollywood as being obviously biased but you can't find one example shows we won't agree and we have polar opposite views.

Speaking of overblown rhetoric...

Hardly. Just pointing out liberal rhetoric. That's what a huge percentage of conservative media is. I'm so glad it has an effect.

-high unemployment, yes it is a problem and may have some very upset.
But, in the last year it is consistently trending down. 6/10

The economy is still uncertain precisely because with increased debt there will have to be increased taxes unless cuts are implemented. Businesses usually like a stable tax environment so when they risk expanding or starting new ones they know that IF they get a profit they are going to keep more of it.

-energy taxes, really? I have not heard any individual ranting about this. Even the oil companies seem to be having some windfall profits, gasoline has gone up, but the cost is related to oil at $100 a barrel. 2/10

The EPA is threatening it. Of course the House can defund any of these activities but the threat is still there.

-inflation, check the rate, it is very low 2/10

The core inflation excludes food and energy so one of the cool new things that's happening is smaller packaging and contents for the same price. In some cases people are paying the same price for 20% less.

-illegal immigration, again check the stats, this is way down, due to no construction jobs, etc. also, with most States running deficits, there is really little aid available for them. Here in CA our new Governor just announce huge Gov cuts, immigration, 4/10

Then why is this murder case considered and example of the heated debate over immigration?

-pointless stimulus spending, this may have some people agitated, but is it legit? most of the TARP has been paid back. Government Motors, really is just a fabrication. 4/10

I would agree if stimulus stops. The Republicans talk a big game but they have to get down to it. The Tea Party is also a response to lame Republicans.

 

[deep]

Newt Gingrich "Medicare to wither on the vine", during the "Contract On America" years of the in the 90's.

oops, you had a typo

it is not "Contract On America".

Contract with America -

 

[Irvine511]

Do we see any examples of the left showing their vitriol in these stories? Look at the articles I posted. There's plenty on the left and if the left doesn't change how would the right?

show me where Joe Biden or John Edwards or Joe Lieberman or Al Gore or any other Democratic VP candidate from the past 50 years has used the same level of "lock and load" rhetoric that Palin has.

 

[purpleoscar]

show me where Joe Biden or John Edwards or Joe Lieberman or Al Gore or any other Democratic VP candidate from the past 50 years has used the same level of "lock and load" rhetoric that Palin has.

I don't care about "lock and load". It's a metaphor. Just like Obama saying "If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,". Obama is not going to literally bring a gun and any lunatic that does couldn't be tied to Obama unless it was intended as literal.

 

[coolian2]

lol, most democrats in america would be considered righties almost anywhere else, and by the same token, most righties in the rest of the modern world would be considered democrats by american standards.

there's basically no such thing as the far left in the usa.

 

[Canadiens1131]

So what we have here so far is a huge overreaction to an old piece of Palin campaign propaganda, and now the right wing echo chamber of clowns will go into its usual 'look at this, I am so, so offended by this, extremely offended by these liberal accusations'. I.E. an overreaction to an overreaction.

Neither is really part of the issue here with this shooting.

Move along, nothing to see here, folks.

 

[dazzledbylight]

oops, you had a typo

it is not "Contract On America".

Contract with America -

Thanks, deep.
I wasn't 100% sure, and getting sleepy, and it was wrong of me not to check somewhere on the web before i posted that particular info bit.

 

[Irvine511]

I don't care about "lock and load". It's a metaphor. Just like Obama saying "If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,". Obama is not going to literally bring a gun and any lunatic that does couldn't be tied to Obama unless it was intended as literal.

yes, i know. no one is blaming Sarah Palin. we are saying that her rhetoric is FULL of images like this -- and one joke by Obama does not in any way compare to the target sites on her website.

people complained about that Palin map AT THE TIME, including GIFFORDS HERSELF. this is not news.

this is a reason why NO ONE should be surprised.

 

[BVS]

Thank God for Rush Limbaugh.

Some of the saddest words written in FYM...

 

[U2Fanatic4ever]

Some of the saddest words written in FYM...

yes it sure is.

 

[Diemen]

Thank God for Rush Limbaugh. People like him are the reason for conservative media in the first place.

Do you think it's healthy when news organization effectively serve as echo chambers for political parties?

Do you think it's healthy when politicians get ostracized when they dare cross 'their own' media figures?

Hardly. Just pointing out liberal rhetoric.

Do you have any sources for this specific liberal rhetoric? If not, you're only adding to the overblown rhetoric.

I haven't seen anyone in the media use this as an excuse to dismiss the entire conservative viewpoint. I have seen people use it as an excuse to argue against the political tactics employed by conservative politicians in order to stir up support. Yes, they're turning a blind eye to some overblown rhetoric from the left, but there's a big difference between saying this is proof that some rhetoric needs to stop, and saying that this is proof that an entire political persuasion needs to end.

 

[dazzledbylight]

lol, most democrats in america would be considered righties almost anywhere else, and by the same token, most righties in the rest of the modern world would be considered democrats by american standards.

there's basically no such thing as the far left in the usa.

No, coolian, there actually are far left people/groups in the USA, i mean hard-core Marxist-Leninsits, Stalinists, and some Maoists who all are small groups realitively AND quite different from The Green,s and Democratic Socilaists {mostly DSOC= Democratic Socialists of Amercia} who are also here in somewhat larger numbers who are probably much like the general people in Nordic countries, and some other (most?) European countries.

I basically know because I am a liberal/progressive living in the NYC area where you'll always find a concentration of them [hard left] (making them seem of bigger numbers if you were to extrapolate that number across the USA) since I've been semi-active quie young in general political, and single issue activites since the Anti-Vietnam War Marches and Rallies of The 60's. You'd see them also among the larger groups of people marching against the Iraq Wars 1 & 2. I've actually seen them, their signs, and newspspers.

And as someone who grew up during the Cold War we weren't even taught that there were differences between a lot of Socialists and The Communists of both Russian & Chineese types.

It wasn't till way later that I started to learn on my own about various European countries political configurations.
And I was quite annoyed that thst part of my eduction was so limited. But looking back with things like Anti-Communist McCarthyism that way over-reached (ruining countless careers, and lives) back in the early-mid 50's probably really scared a lot of people into speaking very unuanced views.

 

[coolian2]

No, coolian, there actually are far left people/groups in the USA, i mean hard-core Marxist-Leninsits, and some Maoists who are a very small group realitively AND quite different from the TYhje Greens and Democratic Socilaists {mostly DSOC= Democratic Socialists of Amercia} who are also here in somewhat larger numbers who are probably much like the Nordic countries, and some other (most?) European countries.

I basically know because I am a liberal/progressive living in the NYC area where you'll always find a concentration of them (making them seem of bigger numbers if you were to extrapolate that number across the USA) since I've been semi-active in general political, and single issue activites since the Anti-Vietnam War Marches and Rallies of The 60's. You'd see them also among the larger groups of people marching against the Iraq Wars 1 & 2. So I've actually sen them and their signs.

ANd as someone who grew up during the Cold War we weren't even taught that there were differences between a lot of Socialists and Communists.
It wasn't till way later that started to learn on my own about various European countries political configurations.

sorry, i meant in the mainstream/actually governing, like 2861u2 and others assert.

 

[PhilsFan]

I don't care about "lock and load". It's a metaphor. Just like Obama saying "If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,". Obama is not going to literally bring a gun and any lunatic that does couldn't be tied to Obama unless it was intended as literal.

The point isn't that Sarah Palin should be directly tied to this, the point is that Sarah Palin should be called out for being irresponsible.

 

[dazzledbylight]

Some of the saddest words written in FYM...

yes it sure is.

Third, this.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

The point isn't that Sarah Palin should be directly tied to this, the point is that Sarah Palin should be called out for being irresponsible.

But she was, at the time. She shouldn't even be in the discussion about this event.

And I can't fucking stand sarah palin.

 

[BVS]

It was a conversation that was prematurely attached to this awful incident, but it's a conversation this country needs to have.


One we've tried to have before but certain groups plugged their ears, shut their eyes, and whined loud.

Although the two aren't related I do think it's good it's at least being discussed(somewhat).

 

[PhilsFan]

But she was, at the time. She shouldn't even be in the discussion about this event.

And I can't fucking stand sarah palin.

I wouldn't even give a shit if 1) there wasn't a huge defense going up for her and 2) she hadn't lied about it.

 

[coolian2]

sarah palin could quite easily just be the victim (!!) of a bad coincidence, but it doesn't change the fact that the image is abhorrent.

it should be discussed separately, but it's now inexorably linked to this tragedy.

 

[Irvine511]

sarah palin could quite easily just be the victim (!!) of a bad coincidence, but it doesn't change the fact that the image is abhorrent.

it should be discussed separately, but it's now inexorably linked to this tragedy.

clearly, Ms. Palin herself sees the link because it's disappeared from her website and she's immediately made herself the real victim in this tragedy.

 

[cobl04]

That's what they want. Like 20% of the WBC is made up of lawyers who sue the shit out of anyone who does something like that.

well how the fuck does something as pure evil as that even exist? that makes me physically ill.

 

[kramwest1]

clearly, Ms. Palin herself sees the link because it's disappeared from her website and she's immediately made herself the real victim in this tragedy.

That, and the walking back of what the symbols were. In November, the symbols were crosshairs according to Palin's Tweet. This weekend, they were "surveyor's marks." Bullshit.

I'm not saying there is absolute causation here; the conservative talkers and politicians didn't pull the trigger. But, they didn't exactly discourage it either.

Bill O'Reilly and Dr. Tiller's murder anyone?

This extreme rhetoric needs to stop.

And, bullshit that it is equal on both sides, left and right. It's not, and people should stop fooling themselves. Yes, there are extreme statements by both sides, but the far right has made a policy of violent talk to stir up emotions in their supporters.

At least renounce Glenn Beck FFS. He may be charged with a crime soon if he continues the way he has.

 

[yolland]

I think continuing to peg the national discussion about our political climate on this particular incident is a bad idea. John Hinckley shot Ronald Reagan because he believed assassinating the President would make Jodie Foster fall in love with him; for all we know, Loughner's motivations could've been just as batshit insane. Speculating about the effects of the environment on mentally ill people is unwise because they don't perceive that environment in predictable ways to begin with. I think there's been more than enough eruptions of resentment and recriminations over this already to deter politicians from publically invoking violent imagery against opponents for the foreseeable future. Pundits, granted, probably not, since at the end of the day they're 'just entertainers' and in our society, that confers a pass for most anything.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Rush Limbaugh irritates the crap out of me. That is all I will say about him.

i will put a label on him.

this was a sick, disturbed kid who only thought in his fucked up mind that he was politically aware.

there were plenty of warning signs that this was a kid who needed help. who needed to be institutionalized. as far as we know, none of these steps were taken.

college prof's said they complained to administration about him... the administration did nothing. they were probably afraid of being sued or something. welcome to america.

44 - Jared Loughner's behavior recorded by college classmate in e-mails

sarah palin is an idiotic, dipshit fucknut whom should leave the political landscape as fast as humanly possible. that said? this fucked up kid had issues with giffords dating back long, long before palin ever put crosshairs on her. his sick fixation and problems with giffords began in 2007, before most americans even knew who sarah palin was. palin's use of crosshairs on districts she wanted "targeted" was a classless, sick move. it's also a terrible coincidence, in this matter.


to see how quickly the media and politicians alike have manipulated this awful tragedy by a sick, deranged individual to fall in line with their own political ideology is absolutely disgusting.

I like it when you bring in the voice of reason. Just want to say that .

That and I don't know how many more situations like this have to happen before people finally start actually paying attention to these warning signs they keep beating into our heads about looking out for. If your gut is telling you something is off, chances are good it's probably right.

A few months ago my friend Chuckie was killed in Afghanistan, and the WBC was planning to come protest his funeral. We were worried because there was a lot of talk about "beating the living shit outta them" if they showed up. Luckily the WBC pussied out and didn't show.




Back on the issue at hand however, I find it sick how politicized this has already become, even here on FYM. This morning I heard commentators on the news blaming Sarah Palin for this, and right now I hear Rush Limbagh on the radio my grandma listens to accusing Obama of using this to reconnect with the American people.


What the fuck. I just wish it would all stop.

So do I . And I'm sorry about the loss of your friend. I'm glad you didn't have to deal with those psychos from WBC and were able to lay him to rest peacefully.

I also agree with you about the background check stuff. I personally would love it if I woke up tomorrow and found out guns never existed ever again. But I know that will never happen, and banning something tends to not solve the problem, it just drives it underground and makes it worse.

But there is absolutely no doubt that we do need to change the way we sell guns, and to whom we sell guns, and limit how many types of guns your average American who isn't part of law enforcement or the military is allowed to have. Most of you aren't going to find yourselves in a Bruce Willis action flick, so you don't need anything beyond a simple handgun and/or a hunting rifle, for crying out loud.

As for the other debate going on here, I think the big difference in today's climate is this: When the extreme left comes out and starts their rantings, most people of all stripes laugh and shrug them off, and generally only people who have the mindset of those on the extreme left tend to take them seriously. But the extreme right actually get traction and some sort of support, not just from fellow extreme right-wingers, but from independents. People actually hold them up as examples of "real Americans" who "truly understand" what your average American is going through. They actually get platforms in the political arena, get to be candidates for elections. Their opinions are given more credence, more legitimacy, and they're in positions of power and are able to promote their fear rhetoric a lot more easily. It's not happening as much on the left.

That being said, I tend to agree with a lot of those of you who lean more to the left on this board on a regular basis, you know that. But come on, let's be honest, the left has been just as guilty of nasty rhetoric, and have committed violent acts throughout history, too. Obama's called Hitler by the right, well, Bush was called Hitler by the left. Many "jokes" are made about killing Obama, many "jokes" were made about Bush dying, too. "Pro-lifers" blow up abortion clinics, "anti-war" activists destroyed military recruiting stations. Both sides were stupid and wrong for saying and doing such things. Remember the big old debate we had a number of years ago about the Secret Service investigating that piece of artwork involving a trigger to Bush's head? I was on the side of the artist there, but some saw that as a threat, and who knows, it very well could've been. Or at least a call to arms. Yes, the conservative side tends to be more pro-gun, but liberals can be hypocritical on that stance, or they may be liberal on everything else...except guns. Or something like that.

Both sides need to acknowledge that their rhetoric and actions contribute in some small way to the toxic situation we find ourselves in. Whether it's violent calls to shoot people, or simply calling somebody a fascist because their opinion dares to differ from yours on an issue, or whatever, let's just say everyone's guilty of being rude and obnoxious at some point (because we all are) and all agree to grow the hell up.

ETA: Just caught yolland's post in full there, you make an excellent point, too.

Angela

 

[cobl04]

you know, my Dad and I met a man who worked at a car museum in Sacramento. and he was genuinely shocked that we don't have guns. "what do you do when someone breaks into your house?" he said. we replied that has never happened. he then said "we get a lot of blacks and hispanics breaking in". i wanted to ask, "what happens if they break in and you have a gun? you can't shoot them can you? you'll get done for murder. or something." but i didn't ask. i didn't want to further the discussion.

why do you need guns? they're so ugly, so violent.

 

[deep]

"what happens if they break in and you have a gun? you can't shoot them can you? you'll get done for murder. or something." but i didn't ask. i didn't want to further the discussion.

I live in CA and own several guns, none of them are loaded.

I live by the beach and have had 2 or 3 young people try and come in my house late at night. Most of the time they were drunk and lost. Or they may have been pretending to try and rob me? Anyways I would not shoot them for personal property.

I do believe, in many parts of the country, people would not be charged if they killed someone that was breaking in to their home. To me it is a question of personal morals and values.

 

[Irvine511]

I think continuing to peg the national discussion about our political climate on this particular incident is a bad idea.

the moment we get a moment of self-awareness and apology from Sarah Palin and her ilk , i'll agree.

and then we can talk about selling semiautomatics to mentally ill people.

 

[maycocksean]

Whatever, Irvine. I can and will acknowledge that the Palin image was uncalled for. Clearly you're unwilling to do the same when it comes to the examples I've cited. That's fine, and frankly, not surprising. How many do you want? Mark Penn saying that Obama needs another OK bombing? The environmental terrorist at the Discovery Channel building last year? Montel Williams telling Michelle Bachmann to kill herself? Randi Rhodes calling for violence against President Bush on a regular basis? John Kerry saying he could go to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue and kill Bush? Craig Kilborn showing a photo of Bush with "Snipers Wanted" beneath it? Chris Matthews fantasizing about someone shooting Rush Limbaugh? Nobel winner Betty Williams saying she'd love to kill President Bush? The countless images of a dead President Bush at various kook rallies? (Death Threats Against Bush at Protests Ignored for Years) What about the man that shot his family over the reckless global warming rhetoric? Do you think the alarmist left deserves blame for that?

All it takes is one crazy person to hear and act on any of this stuff. Is all this merely "charged" and passionate to you? To deny that there is violent rhetoric coming from prominent members of the Democratic Party and liberal persuasion in the United States (which is truly what it sounds like you are doing) is shameful and sick.

If any good can come of this, it's that hopefully we can all grow up. Some probably will, and some will merely tell other people to but not do it themselves. I'm in the former camp. I really hope Sarah Palin is, too. Where are you?

I'm really surprised you didn't mention the "mockumentary" about the assasination of Bush. That would have been the most obvious example.

At any rate, I don't know how you could look at the video clip where Giffords herself talks about inflammatory rhetoric after her office was vandalized and not acknowledge that the hyperbolic language has gotten out of hand.

I would hope this incident would bring us together as a nation, not further tear us apart. Alas, that does not appear to be happening.