U S Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, a Democrat, shot at public appearance!! - Page 23 - U2 Feedback

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Old 01-11-2011, 08:36 PM   #331
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I can certainly understand the fear of the politicians and wanting to protect themselves. Unfortunately, this threat comes with the job description and I have no problem with them wanting to make sure they and their constituents are safe at any get-togethers.

I do agree, though, them bringing guns to events could get messy and could very well contradict any messages of peace they may want to convey. Interesting idea about the plexiglas stuff, though, that might be something to consider.

(I also meant to say, MrsSpringsteen, thank you for the story about Christina. She sounds like she was an amazingly cool child, and I'm glad she was able to bring some light and hope to this world, if only for a short time)

On another note, this is certainly fantastic news, we could use a bit of it right now:

Giffords moves arms, survival odds at '101 pct' - Yahoo! News

Angela
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Old 01-11-2011, 08:51 PM   #332
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RIP Christina, Dorothy, John, Phyllis, Dorwan and Gabriel.

Lover of animals, a good neighbour, respected judge, a vibrant Giants fan, devoted husband, and a peacemaker (engaged to be married).

The Victims of the Giffords Shooting in Arizona - Interactive Feature - NYTimes.com
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Old 01-11-2011, 10:06 PM   #333
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It seems like a good time to take a breath. With a uniquely objective perspective, yet with a very personal connection, here is the moment of silence requested by Commander Scott Kelly on the International Space Station. His twin brother, and fellow astronaut, Mark Kelly is the husband of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords.

YouTube - NASA'S Mission Control and ISS Crew Observe National Moment of Silence
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Old 01-12-2011, 01:19 AM   #334
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thanks Knuckle
I heard this earlier yesterday on the radio
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Old 01-12-2011, 04:56 AM   #335
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ya know... i actually am okay with people having the right to have firearms. people out in the woods, far away from towns... in the deserts in the southwest, especially near dangerous mexican border towns... i can completely understand why they would want to protect themselves.

so give them a fucking muzzle loading rifle and ban the rest of that shit. nobody needs a semi-automatic rifle to kill bambi.
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Old 01-12-2011, 05:12 AM   #336
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bloomberg.com


Glock Pistol Sales Surge in Aftermath of Arizona Shootings



After a Glock-wielding gunman killed six people at a Tucson shopping center on Jan. 8, Greg Wolff, the owner of two Arizona gun shops, told his manager to get ready for a stampede of new customers.

Wolff was right. Instead of hurting sales, the massacre had the $499 semi-automatic pistols -- popular with police, sport shooters and gangsters -- flying out the doors of his Glockmeister stores in Mesa and Phoenix.

“We’re at double our volume over what we usually do,” Wolff said two days after the shooting spree that also left 14 wounded, including Democratic Representative Gabrielle Giffords, who remains in critical condition.

A national debate over weaknesses in state and federal gun laws stirred by the shooting has stoked fears among gun buyers that stiffer restrictions may be coming from Congress, gun dealers say. The result is that a deadly demonstration of the weapon’s effectiveness has also fired up sales of handguns in Arizona and other states, according to federal law enforcement data.

“When something like this happens people get worried that the government is going to ban stuff,” Wolff said.

Arizona gun dealers say that among the biggest sellers over the past two days is the Glock 19 made by privately held Glock GmbH, based in Deutsch-Wagram, Austria, the model used in the shooting.

Sales Jump

One-day sales of handguns in Arizona jumped 60 percent on Jan. 10 compared with the corresponding Monday a year ago, the second-biggest increase of any state in the country, according to Federal Bureau of Investigation data. From a year earlier, handgun sales ticked up yesterday 65 percent in Ohio, 16 percent in California, 38 percent in Illinois and 33 percent in New York, the FBI data show, and increased nationally about 5 percent.

Federally tracked gun sales, which are drawn from sales in gun stores that require a federal background check, also jumped following the 2007 massacre at Virginia Tech, in which 32 people were killed.

“Whenever there is a huge event, especially when it’s close to home, people do tend to run out and buy something to protect their family,” said Don Gallardo, a manager at Arizona Shooter’s World in Phoenix, who said that the number of people signing up for the store’s concealed weapons class doubled over the weekend. Gallardo said he expects handgun sales to climb steadily throughout the week.

Permissive Laws

Jared Loughner, the 22-year-old accused in the shooting, has a petty criminal record, yet so far there’s no evidence that his background contained anything that would have prevented him from buying a handgun in Arizona, where limits on owning and carrying a gun are among the most permissive in the country, according to the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, a gun- control advocacy group.

Critics have focused on the extended magazine used in the shooting. It was illegal until 2004 under the expired federal ban on assault weapons. The clip -- still banned in some states and popular in Arizona, gun dealers say -- allegedly allowed Loughner to fire 33 rounds without reloading.

Democratic Representative Carolyn McCarthy of New York said this week that she plans to introduce legislation that would ban the high-capacity magazine. McCarthy’s husband was one of six people shot to death in 1993 by a lone gunman on a Long Island railroad train. Her son was among the 19 people wounded.

“The fact that the guy had a magazine that could carry 33 rounds, he was not out to just kill. He was there to do a mass killing,” said Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, a forensics expert at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York.

Virginia Tech

Light and easy to use, a Glock 9 mm was also wielded by the Virginia Tech killer, Seung-Hui Cho, in a spree that left 32 people dead. The gun is among the most popular sidearms for U.S. police departments. A negative for law enforcement is that the rifling of the barrel makes it almost impossible to match a bullet to an individual weapon with ballistic tests, Kobilinsky said.

“It’s one of the greatest guns made in the history of the world,” said Wolff, whose two stores sell Glock-made weapons almost exclusively.

When Loughner allegedly walked into Tucson’s Sportsman’s Warehouse last November to buy a Glock 19 -- favored as a concealed weapon because it is slightly smaller and lighter than similar caliber handguns -- federal law would have required a background check via the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, a telephone-based check administered by the FBI.

Background Check

Loughner would have had to present his driver’s license and answer several questions, including queries on past drug use, domestic violence or felony convictions. Wolff said in most cases the check takes less than five minutes and the number of denials he receives is a tiny fraction of the total.

Wolff called the shooting “horrible.” Nonetheless, it has created a surge of publicity for the gun, he said.

“It’s in the news now. I’m sure the Green Bay Packers are selling all kinds of jerseys today as well,” he said. “I just think our state embraces guns.”

Arizona law allows anyone to carry a gun in public if it’s in full view, making it what’s known as an open-carry state. Until recently, gun store owners say, it was common to see people carrying weapons in grocery stores or coffee shops. That’s less true today, because last year that state passed a law allowing individuals to carry a concealed weapon without a permit.

Gun Law Rating

Daniel Vise, senior attorney with the Brady Campaign, said Arizona received a score of two out of 100 on the organization’s rating of state gun laws, and that the rate of gun deaths in the state is one and a half times the national average.

Brady Campaign spokeswoman Caroline Brewer said that some states require local law enforcement agencies to approve gun permits, a system that would have given authorities a chance to further assess Loughner, whose behavior acquaintances have described as erratic. Loughner tried to buy ammunition the morning of the shooting at a local Wal-Mart Stores Inc. outlet, then left during the sale process, according to a statement by the company.

“If a clerk at Wal-Mart picked something up and refused to sell this guy some ammunition, we can certainly imagine that law enforcement would have picked that up as well,” Brewer said.
I actually had to read this post TWICE to make sure it was real and not just a bad script for a Clint Eastwood film....

Have we totally gone mad? What is it with people??? It is absolutely horrifying to me how people can easily go out and buy guns just like going to a supermarket and buying bread.....

What for???? Why all this gun-worship?

I wish that Christina, Dorothy, John, Phyllis, Dorwan and Gabriel had had the same protection as the "precious" second amendment....

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Old 01-12-2011, 06:37 AM   #337
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The latest...Here is a Wall Street Journal article discussing Loughner's ravings in an online gaming forum.

Postings of a Troubled Mind - WSJ.com
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Old 01-12-2011, 09:54 AM   #338
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The "evidence"? "Sure to fail"? Come on 2861, there is no sure to fail evidence. You know that, we know that, everyone knows that. If it was that black and white there would be no debate. Let's bring back some common sense into our debates along with this new found civility.
Do you believe gun bans would work?

I agree this deserves its own thread, so I'll just say this. There are multiple American cities and European countries where gun bans have been tried and gun violence has risen. Here in America, combine a gun ban with the growing problems of our 911 system, and you're in a bad spot.
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Old 01-12-2011, 10:17 AM   #339
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Do you believe gun bans would work?

I agree this deserves its own thread, so I'll just say this. There are multiple American cities and European countries where gun bans have been tried and gun violence has risen.
A city wide gun ban doesn't work because you can get a gun in the next city. This is just common sense. Therefore avoid using these types of points as evidence. City wide gun bans may curb crimes of passion and allow you to avoid Arizona type situations where you can go into a pizza place with a gun strapped to your side. Country wide gun bans will take years to work because like Kramwest said earlier millions of guns are already out there in the households. It will take a combination of background checks, ammo control, and the end of certain types of guns. You can eventually start to control the blackmarket for guns are not like drugs you can't make them in your basement.
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Old 01-12-2011, 10:28 AM   #340
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A city wide gun ban doesn't work because you can get a gun in the next city. This is just common sense.

washington dc has fairly high gun crime -- though it's continued to drop consistently since the crack war heydays of the early 1990s -- despite a gun ban (that's in dispute at the moment).

all the guns come from MD and VA, both states have very lenient gun laws and are happy to sell guns to people like the VA Tech shooter from a few years ago.

the problem is the guns.

the question is what to do about the guns. i agree that a "ban" won't work.
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Old 01-12-2011, 10:33 AM   #341
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I think it's a gross mis-characterization to say that the MSM initiates the overblowing things, and then the conservative media only overblows things in response.
The right-wing media is a watchdog on the left. I know you don't look at it that way but that is how we view ourselves.

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Again I find that a bit of an over-simplification, and a misleading one. House and Senate Republicans have been saying that we have to extend the tax cut because these people will provide a valuable boost to our economy, through hiring and investment, etc. This tax cut isn't a new thing, it's been around for 8 years. It's quite misleading to talk about it as if it's the answer to getting our economy back on track. Our economy went down with this tax cut in place.
The deficit has to be undercontrol. If it isn't then > deficit = > future taxes. The business community is not dumb. Once the debt is undercontrol (meaning the taxes pay for themselves) it's easier to plan for risky enterprises like expanding a company or creating a new one because incentive (profit) hasn't diminished with increased taxes. The way a company grows is IF it earns profits it has to pay taxes and then what's left can be partially given to shareholders or to reinvest. Since many companies have lots of debt it makes sense to pay down some of that and always have a percentage of equity available for new investments. If taxes increase there will be less money available to grow the economy quick enough to fill jobs for those seeking work. Sure you can be like Sweden but they have to have a high personal tax rate and a low corporate tax rate precisely because availability of jobs creates more tax revenue for the government than not. Whether the U.S. wants that tax model depends on their cultural appetite for having obstacles to rewards for their talents. It appears that many Americans haven't got over the enjoyable incentive to keep much of what they earn.

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Again, some have claimed to be serious about it, but when it comes down to it, they're perfectly willing to pile another $900 billion onto our deficit to satisfy their own interests. And now that everyone is gearing up for the upcoming presidential election, we're going to see a whole lot more empty rhetoric (from both sides, I'll admit) about fiscal responsibility, without much action to back it up.
We will see. There is only so much debt that the U.S. can take. The U.S. is banking on investors always having money to invest in them and that there are no other investment options in other countries. Will there be a point where the U.S. will have trouble finding investors to invest in them?

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By any chance, did you actually watch the clip? Because the surprising (and reassuring) thing is the complete lack of partisan jabs or political posturing at all. I would think (and hope) that people from any political persuasion would be able to watch it and agree with what he's saying.
Well you seem to be annoyed by angry discussion more than what is said but there are huge implications in saying that happiness is improved when envy is removed by making a country more equal in outcomes. I look at envy as a defilement and a personal problem that one has to get over. I wouldn't feel great in a country that tried to limit my reasonable rewards for reasonable effort and talent. I also think an important part of happiness is being able to be responsible for myself than trying to off load it as much as possible to bureaucrats (especially in creating boring equal outcomes). I agree with the video that much of the market is based on status but that is more a consumeristic point of view that we should criticize and a better way would be for people to get over their envy and start making personal goals that people strive for instead of comparing themselves to others based on what they can buy. Capitalism is about capital. If people compete on status they are likely not going to have any capital but lots of debt. There will always be inequality of outcomes even in Sweden so to me creating more opportunities is a more realistic goal and leave it up to people to learn from their own mistakes. People should only look to others for inspiration or lessons on what not to do. They should not look at other people as diminishing their own happiness because they have better results.

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so, in essence, smart and creative people are liberal?
You see if media people act they way you talk it's no wonder that conservatives can get angry. Of course there are creative conservatives and I'm pretty sure you know that too.
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Old 01-12-2011, 10:45 AM   #342
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The right-wing media is a watchdog on the left. I know you don't look at it that way but that is how we view ourselves.
Watchdogs just point out inaccuracies, they do so with facts. They don't turn it around and bloviate opinions. Therefore you're completely wrong about right wing media.

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Well you seem to be annoyed by angry discussion more than what is said but there are huge implications in saying that happiness is improved when envy is removed by making a country more equal in outcomes. I look at envy as a defilement and a personal problem that one has to get over. I wouldn't feel great in a country that tried to limit my reasonable rewards for reasonable effort and talent. I also think an important part of happiness is being able to be responsible for myself than trying to off load it as much as possible to bureaucrats (especially in creating boring equal outcomes). I agree with the video that much of the market is based on status but that is more a consumeristic point of view that we should criticize and a better way would be for people to get over their envy and start making personal goals that people strive for instead of comparing themselves to others based on what they can buy. Capitalism is about capital. If people compete on status they are likely not going to have any capital but lots of debt. There will always be inequality of outcomes even in Sweden so to me creating more opportunities is a more realistic goal and leave it up to people to learn from their own mistakes. People should only look to others for inspiration or lessons on what not to do. They should not look at other people as diminishing their own happiness because they have better results.
This had absolutely nothing to do with the video clip Diemen and I were talking about. It's this lack of basic reading comprehension and context skills that makes it so hard to take you seriously.


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You see if media people act they way you talk it's no wonder that conservatives can get angry. Of course there are creative conservatives and I'm pretty sure you know that too.
He just did what Rush did in your example and you didn't even catch it. He turned something you said around and turned it into overblown hyperbole rhetoric.

But on a serious note you do show a huge lack of respect for education, this is highly disturbing.
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Old 01-12-2011, 11:07 AM   #343
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A city wide gun ban doesn't work because you can get a gun in the next city. This is just common sense. Therefore avoid using these types of points as evidence. City wide gun bans may curb crimes of passion and allow you to avoid Arizona type situations where you can go into a pizza place with a gun strapped to your side. Country wide gun bans will take years to work because like Kramwest said earlier millions of guns are already out there in the households. It will take a combination of background checks, ammo control, and the end of certain types of guns. You can eventually start to control the blackmarket for guns are not like drugs you can't make them in your basement.
The sad part of this so far from what I've read is that this was premeditated by Loughner. He seems unstable and dangerous, but apparently not so much that he didn't plan ahead somewhat. Because this wasn't a spur-of-the-moment decision, it seems he could have gotten a weapon even if there were more restrictions in place.

But, as I said, the sad reality is that the cat is out of the bag on guns in the U.S., and we are not going to get them back. The best we can do is manage the situation--long sentences for people who use guns in crimes, much more control of ammunition sales (possibly a waiting period), longer probation periods and random home checks for those released after gun crimes, and more sharing of information between jurisdictions including creating a nationwide watch list for people with mental illness, similar to the "No Fly" list.
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Old 01-12-2011, 11:11 AM   #344
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it seems he could have gotten a weapon even if there were more restrictions in place.

What do you mean? By all counts he shouldn't have gotten a gun even with the laxed laws that Arizona has, but his prior history slipped through the cracks. His drug violation alone, would have blocked him in some states.
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Old 01-12-2011, 11:17 AM   #345
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What do you mean? By all counts he shouldn't have gotten a gun even with the laxed laws that Arizona has, but his prior history slipped through the cracks. His drug violation alone, would have blocked him in some states.
He easily could have obtained a gun illegally if he really wanted one, which he seemed to.

He probably could have gotten one legally, there is still the "Gun Show Loophole." And, there is no way the government can ever regulate sales among private individuals.
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