U S Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, a Democrat, shot at public appearance!!

[deep]

Giffords removed from respirator, has tracheotomy

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Good to hear that about Giffords' progress . Admire her fighting spirit.

First I never said that there was an imminent Communist takeover. That's BVS's exagerration.

You may not have outright said it, but you sure seem to have an obsession with the idea.

The reality is that many ideas of the left the Communists also support (Worldwide Cap and Trade w/ tradebarriers for countries that don't sign on, single payer healthcare systems a la Canada). Those two areas by themselves would constitute a large portion of the economy.

So...just because different groups might be in agreement on an idea or two here and there, this automatically means they're one and the same on everything?

I've found myself agreeing with 2861U2 a few times in this thread. And we're about as different politically as they come. You can agree with people on certain things without going along with their entire belief system altogether. I like the idea of more accessible health care, too, but communist I am not.

When a government hires communists like Anita Dunn and Van Jones and when Democrats infight with themselves over a left-wing agenda you know that Obama is far-left.

You realize some of the infighting is also due to the fact that there are Democrats that are more conservative, too, right?

And I question your accusation of those people being communists, because apparently, everybody who even leans slightly left to you is in danger of being a communist.

Obama. Is. Not. Far. Left. I want you to repeat this over and over.

I don't worry because of what just happened in the last election.

Yeah, we'll see how well the Republicans pan out. They're kind of hurting themselves quite a bit as of late.

When it comes to healthcare I don't like the U.S. status quo but I still want as much competition in healthcare as possible.

There's your first problem: Health care shouldn't BE competitive. Its ultimate goal is to take care of people, not to see who can rack up the most patients or who can get the newest technologies and treatments first or who can make the most money. This isn't McDonald's ("Over 100 million patients treated!").

There are problems with a government runned health care system you know. Having universal access to a lineup is not what many Americans are used to.

I never said a government system was perfect. I've no doubt it has its issues like any other.

And what do you mean by a "lineup", exactly?

All I want is for people to be able to afford to go to the doctor when they need to, to get treated properly and not have to sit there with an endless stream of bills they can't pay off. I've watched my parents go through that, I've seen what it does to people. It sucks, and it shouldn't be happening. I'm not asking for the government to start controlling every last aspect of my health decisions (why do you think I'm so deadset against them controlling things related to women's bodies?) or whatever other crazy crap people think it is we'll ask for.

Even Michael Moore agrees with the lineups because it bothers him less than the current system. Many Americans don't agree with that.

I really don't care what Michael Moore thinks on this issue. And just because many Americans support/don't support something doesn't mean it's right.

Maybe the U.S. could afford more for healthcare if they spent less on military

Hey, there's an idea...

but since they are the major superpower to defend Democracy you would need Canadians and Europeans to spend less on their social programs so they could increase their military might to allow the U.S. to draw down.

Eh? How about everyone scale back on their military a bit? I don't want anyone to increase their military might any more than they have to.

Yeah. We're doing a bang-up job of defending democracy, we are. Hell, we're having difficulty making it work here in our own country.

Until I see that happening in actual international deals it's just a dream. I don't think Europe would or even could do that quickly. It would take years and political infights in their own countries to take up that responsibility.

I really don't get what this has to do with what the conversation started with, but okay. Seriously, this thread has taken some really odd twists and turns over the last week.

Angela

 

[Canadiens1131]

Just the fact that purpleoscar bothers capitalizing 'communists', as if there is a genuine, powerful movement or party to turn the U.S. into Soviet Russia, is pretty funny.

He's honestly very close to dropping the old line about the single North American currency, super highway from Canada all the way to Mexico, etc.

Get off the conservative blogs, man, they're bad for your mind.

 

[bono_212]

I just needed to get this off of my chest. I honest to God thought you guys were talking about the BAND Rush when you were referring to some song about Obama's skin color. It JUST occured to me that you were referring to the man Rush....not the band.

.

(not that I needed to embarrass myself like that, but I think we could all use a laugh)

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Awwwwwww, oh, no! Eh, well, hey, since we were talking about a song, that makes sense that you'd make such a connection.

I have a really odd mental image in my head from that now. Heh. Confusion aside, you're right, we certainly needed a light moment, so thank you .

I think we all could do well to turn the heat down just a bit in here-the discussion is fascinating and I'm all for continuing it, just, let's try and remember the pleas that have been made so far about changing the dialogue. And I'm including myself in this, too.

Angela

 

[corianderstem]

How completely unsurprising that this thread has gone the way of so many other FYM threads about politics. The same handful of people bickering.

Wonderful news to hear how well Giffords is doing.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Also meant to respond to this:

Angela

I don't think ( remembering last nights look) Bono looked very happy in the foto with Beck.

Hello !

His expression did look a bit "Meh", yeah. But he has a great ability to be able to be around anyone, no matter who it is, and still manage to stay respectable and roll with the situation. It is rather pleasing to see two people such as them not run in the other direction the moment they see each other.

Angela

 

[dazzledbylight]

And I question your accusation of those people being communists, because apparently, everybody who even leans slightly left to you is in danger of being a communist.

Be afraid, very afraid!

Obama. Is. Not. Far. Left. I want you to repeat this over and over.

Just don't send oscar to Prof. Umbridge !

There's your first problem: Health care shouldn't BE competitive. Its ultimate goal is to take care of people, not to see who can rack up the most patients or who can get the newest technologies and treatments first or who can make the most money. This isn't McDonald's ("Over 100 million patients treated!").

ohhhh, gawd!

All I want is for people to be able to afford to go to the doctor when they need to, to get treated properly and not have to sit there with an endless stream of bills they can't pay off. I've watched my parents go through that, I've seen what it does to people. It sucks, and it shouldn't be happening. I'm not asking for the government to start controlling every last aspect of my health decisions (why do you think I'm so deadset against them controlling things related to women's bodies?) or whatever other crazy crap people think it is we'll ask for.


Angela

& basically "amen!"

 

[dazzledbylight]

Also meant to respond to this:

His expression did look a bit "Meh", yeah. But he has a great ability to be able to be around anyone, no matter who it is, and still manage to stay respectable and roll with the situation. It is rather pleasing to see two people such as them not run in the other direction the moment they see each other.

Angela

It's a very useful trait at times!

 

[dazzledbylight]

I was very happy to hear (the latest) that Rep Gifford's is continuing to recover bit by bit,and sometimes more- relatively speaking! She's got a tough road ahead, but people do recovery to various degrees from Traumatic Brain Injury.

I sort of knew someone who had a car accident related TBI. She hd to learn to lean to walk, read & write all over again.

Anyway... Go, Gaabbie!

I hope the other's we are not hearing about (at least nationally) are doing well in their various recoveries as well.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

The father of Christina Green, the youngest of six people killed January 8 at U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords' meet-and-greet outside an Arizona supermarket, told CNN Friday that some of his daughter's organs "went to a little girl in Boston."

"It was very poignant to find out. That's what Christina was all about," John Green said. "It's a blessing."

Asked whether he and his wife would like to meet the girl who received the organ one day if she were willing, John Green said, "Oh yes, and I'd give her a big hug."

 

[U2Fanatic4ever]

even more good news! wtg Gabby

Senator: Giffords moving both sides of her body, breathing on her own - CNN.com

 

[purpleoscar]

You realize some of the infighting is also due to the fact that there are Democrats that are more conservative, too, right?

And I question your accusation of those people being communists, because apparently, everybody who even leans slightly left to you is in danger of being a communist.

No it's just that when communists openly support certain policies it's not because of a massive violent proletarian revolution is going to happen tomorrow, it's because they like the direction it's going (left) and expect over generations new Democrats will continue to go in that direction. That's why a lot of what conservatives support today was considered more liberal a century ago. If Obama got everything he wanted new generations of leftists would keep going left and they wouldn't hang up their hats and stop proposing new legislation to increase government. Just like on the right there are some who would reduce the size of the government to nothing (but won't have much popular support). The trajectory for the past century has been to increase the government ownership of GDP with some small steps back once and a while. Right now the U.S. needs to step back on the fiscal side and monetary side.

Obama. Is. Not. Far. Left. I want you to repeat this over and over.

You're going to have to tell Newsweek because they will be very disappointed:

There's your first problem: Health care shouldn't BE competitive. Its ultimate goal is to take care of people, not to see who can rack up the most patients or who can get the newest technologies and treatments first or who can make the most money. This isn't McDonald's ("Over 100 million patients treated!").

Hey I think some patients waiting for surgical procedures wouldn't mind the McDonald's refrain. All kidding aside government monopolies are slower. I'm talking about competition to improve service.

I never said a government system was perfect. I've no doubt it has its issues like any other.

And what do you mean by a "lineup", exactly?

I agree there's no perfect system because everyone dies, but there's still a debate on which system is better (Switzerland, France, Canada, Taiwan, Japan, Sweden, and the U.S.). What you find is the left likes more government and the right likes more of the private sector involved so the political "battlelines" (oops did I use an incitement word) are drawn.

When the government runs the system from top to bottom they ration care to keep costs down so lineups increase.

All I want is for people to be able to afford to go to the doctor when they need to, to get treated properly and not have to sit there with an endless stream of bills they can't pay off. I've watched my parents go through that, I've seen what it does to people. It sucks, and it shouldn't be happening. I'm not asking for the government to start controlling every last aspect of my health decisions (why do you think I'm so deadset against them controlling things related to women's bodies?) or whatever other crazy crap people think it is we'll ask for.

I understand that the WWII style of healthcare needs to change but Americans have to decide if they want to wait longer for care (therefore pay less) or to get care sooner (this especially for people with joint problems) but have to pay for insurance or get a big bill. I do like the idea of a mandatory insurance system (separate from employment) because the current version of healthcare allows people to avoid getting insurance and then later ask for government subsidies if something goes wrong in an unexpected accident.

I really don't care what Michael Moore thinks on this issue. And just because many Americans support/don't support something doesn't mean it's right.

We'll see how that debate goes because repeal will be attempted and this will likely go into the next election cycle. I suppose if the quality stayed the same and the costs went down (yeah right) there would be more support.

Hey, there's an idea...

I'm pretty sure European electorates would prevent their governments from doing that.

Which interview, help me out here... Who did Sarah mention?

Or is this like the "several Dems attacked Republicans who were anchor babies thing"?

EXCLUSIVE: Roger Ailes & Russell Simmons: Both Sides Are Wrong | Global Grind

Russell Simmons: One thing I am sick of...I really want to see the people govern this country. And I want to see the people on the Right’s voice be respected, and the people on the Left's voice be respected-

Roger Ailes: That’s what should happen. You know, they’re using this thing...apparently there was a map from one of Palin’s things that had her (Congresswoman Giffords) targeted district. So, we looked at the internet and the first thing we found in 2007, the Democrat Party had a targeted map with targets on it for the Palin district. These maps have been used for for years that I know of. I have two pictures of myself with a bull's-eye on my head. This is just bullshit. This goes on... both sides are wrong, but they both do it.

I told all of our guys, shut up, tone it down, make your argument intellectually. You don’t have to do it with bombast. I hope the other side does that.

YouTube - Sarah Palin - America's Enduring Strength (in HD) 12th Jan 2011

2:16 she mentions that both sides of the aisle use similar maps​

Wake up and smell the coffee,
Taiwan will be main-streamed into China, much like Honk Kong.

This is taking place now, and the concept of an invasion is just silly.

So that's why they do military drills towards each other. Taiwan is only one example. A more obvious one would be North Korea. In fact include allys that neighbor any dictatorship.

Even now there is a steady weakening of Democracy throughout the world. It's not the end of the world but it's at least something to be concerned about:

http://www.freedomhouse.org/images/File/fiw/FIW 2011 Booklet_1_11_11.pdf

The increasing truculence of the world’s most powerful authoritarian regimes has coincided with a growing inability or unwillingness on the part of the world’s democracies to meet the authoritarian challenge, with important consequences for the state of global freedom.

 

[BVS]

Oscar you apparently didn't actually read the Newsweek article did you?

And I was right, no links to those maps.

 

[PhilsFan]

If Obama got everything he wanted new generations of leftists would keep going left and they wouldn't hang up their hats and stop proposing new legislation to increase government. http://www.freedomhouse.org/images/File/fiw/FIW 2011 Booklet_1_11_11.pdf

That is insane, paranoid bullshit.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

May continue the debate later. Just want to comment on something nice and pleasant for now:

The father of Christina Green, the youngest of six people killed January 8 at U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords' meet-and-greet outside an Arizona supermarket, told CNN Friday that some of his daughter's organs "went to a little girl in Boston."

"It was very poignant to find out. That's what Christina was all about," John Green said. "It's a blessing."

Asked whether he and his wife would like to meet the girl who received the organ one day if she were willing, John Green said, "Oh yes, and I'd give her a big hug."

That's lovely . I hope they do get to meet someday.

And more great news regarding Giffords. I'm really impressed at the progress she's managed to make in one week's time. As always, continuing to send on good wishes to her on her recovery.

Angela

 

[Jeannieco]

May continue the debate later. Just want to comment on something nice and pleasant for now:



That's lovely . I hope they do get to meet someday.

And more great news regarding Giffords. I'm really impressed at the progress she's managed to make in one week's time. As always, continuing to send on good wishes to her on her recovery.

Angela

Yes, it's nice to know some good can come out this tragedy.
It is such a miracle that Gabby is doing so well too! It's amazing how much progress she has made!

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Want to post this interesting story I just saw:

AP-GfK Poll: Opposition to health care law eases - Yahoo! News

purpleoscar, yes, we should absolutely strive to improve service for people health-wise, but I don't like the idea of the word "competition" being used in relation to health care. It shouldn't be about that at all. It should be solely about helping people. And if there is any competition, it should be the friendly kind, not the greedy kind.

I don't see why it has to be one or the other, left or right, on this issue, why we can't have a healthy mix of both working together to make our health care system work for the citizens. Anyone in the private health care sector who cares more about people than profits deserves praise. If the entire private sector worked like that, we wouldn't need to look to other means. But it doesn't, so we do.

As for the communism/socialism thing, I honestly don't know what to say other than I simply don't agree and I think you worry far, FAR too much about such things, and presume things about the left that may be true in some respects, but are not true of all. Which you're free to do if you wish, but don't be surprised then if people find that a bit odd and call you out on it. I haven't even read the article that that Newsweek cover alludes to, and I think you may have missed the point of it. I think it was a wee bit on the sarcastic side.

And thanks to Daz for the support/comments as well .

Angela

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

I don't like the idea of the word "competition" being used in relation to health care. It shouldn't be about that at all. It should be solely about helping people.

That's not how economics work. They're competing to provide a service to you, so that they make money. If it was soley about helping people, there would be no way an insurance company could stay in business.

And if there is any competition, it should be the friendly kind, not the greedy kind.

Can you describe what friendly competition in this instance would be, as opposed to greed?

 

[Canadiens1131]

That's not how economics work. They're competing to provide a service to you, so that they make money. If it was soley about helping people, there would be no way an insurance company could stay in business.

This is what a lot of laypeople do not understand about the health care system in America.

Patient well being is not the only consideration. The current health system has a ton of inefficiencies, a lot of them due to patient expectations.

There is an incentive for doctors to perform a battery of tests which are more unnecessary a lot of the time, simply because they

a) Want to avoid the huge, over-inflated malpractice suits patients are allowed to bring

b) Patients do not think economically about their health. If you have insurance, and are given the option to perform a few extra tests to be 100% sure about a diagnosis, you have them carried out despite the diminishing returns, wasting the resources of the hospital

c) It is to the hospital's benefit to perform more tests and procedures. The receive more compensation from insurance companies.

d) Health care is not democratized in its current form. Is someone suffering a stroke supposed to call up the nearest four hospitals to find out the pricing for an operation + extended stay and pick the solution that is the most cost-effective, while trying to balance that out with distance the ambulance is supposed to drive so they don't die?

Health care does simply not work well as a traditional business+competition model. I'm sorry, is it working well in America when families are selling houses or are going bankrupt because daddy had the audacity to suffer a heart attack and need extended care?

Is health care working in the U.S. when an individual can pay into an insurance plan his entire life, and be dropped by his insurance company on a technicality if he has the nerve to acquire some sort of cancer?

Anyone simply arguing that pure competition is the solution for an efficient health care system in the U.S. is not doing any research and is not in touch with people on the ground in the medical field.

Healthcare /= traditional business. How f-ing hard is this to understand? Especially for those on the right opposed to reform in the system.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Health care does simply not work well as a traditional business+competition model. I'm sorry, is it working well in America when families are selling houses or are going bankrupt because daddy had the audacity to suffer a heart attack and need extended care?

*In reference to bolded part* Hi !

Excellent post. I guess what I meant was, the main focus should be on helping people. If there HAS to be competition of any kind, it shouldn't be the part that's the most important to a hospital. I understand needing to make money to keep a business going, but profit should never go over people.

But still, I'll just refer you to Canadiens' post as they said it a hell of a lot better than I could .

Can you describe what friendly competition in this instance would be, as opposed to greed?

Well, I don't know if it'd qualify as "competition", but I mean, look at St. Jude. They don't refuse to treat people if they can't afford to pay. And yet they're still in business. Through donations and such, sure, but still...

Angela

 

[BVS]

That's not how economics work. They're competing to provide a service to you, so that they make money. If it was soley about helping people, there would be no way an insurance company could stay in business.

This is true and false. Yes, this is how it is currently and it's why our current system is killing the poor.

But there is a way to stay in business and truly help people.

 

[KhanadaRhodes]

Health care does simply not work well as a traditional business+competition model. I'm sorry, is it working well in America when families are selling houses or are going bankrupt because daddy had the audacity to suffer a heart attack and need extended care?

thank you. i have personally known people that have had this happen to them. no one should have to declare bankruptcy because they had an illness or medical condition.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

It says a lot about the way things have been in recent years that this is considered big news, but still, very cool nonetheless :

Top Republican, top Democrat to sit together at State of the Union - Yahoo! News

Angela

 

[deep]

- Giffords could lose seat because of obscure statute

 

[deep]

As her condition continues to improve, Arizona Rep. Gabrielle Giffords's personality is starting to shine through.

"So typical of her," her husband Mark Kelly tells ABC News. "She's in the ICU. You know, gone through this traumatic injury. And she spent 10 minutes giving me a neck massage."

"I keep telling her," Kelly adds, "I'm like, 'Gabby, you're in the ICU. You know, you don't need … to be doing this.' But it's so typical of her that no matter how bad the situation might be for her, you know, she's looking out for other people."

Husband says Giffords smiled and gave him neck rub - San Jose Mercury News

 

[U2Fanatic4ever]

Husband says Giffords smiled and gave him neck rub - San Jose Mercury News

very good news.. and cute.

 

[kramwest1]

Husband says Giffords smiled and gave him neck rub - San Jose Mercury News

very good news.. and cute.

I heard on CNN this morning that her husband goes out late at night (for privacy) and looks at the impromptu memorial (I think at the Safeway). He said he took a teddy bear from it and brought it to her in bed the other day.

I can't imagine sitting bedside with my wife in critical condition.
It's been sad enough the couple times we've each had non-life-threatening surgeries (wisdom teeth and hand surgery).

 

[PhilsFan]

I can't imagine sitting bedside with my wife in critical condition.
It's been sad enough the couple times we've each had non-life-threatening surgeries (wisdom teeth and hand surgery).

It's extremely moving and inspiring when things like this start to happen, though. The signs they start to recognize and understand. I've seen it happen the other way, where they never wake up.

 

[AliEnvy]

This might sounds a bit strange and I don't mean it to be disrespectful since I am genuinely touched by this story and the very good news that comes after such a tragedy.

But I can't help but notice that Giffords' miraculous and speedy progress seems so much like those impossible recoveries on tv medical dramas. In a good way of course. But still.