U S Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, a Democrat, shot at public appearance!! - Page 11 - U2 Feedback

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Old 01-09-2011, 03:33 PM   #151
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Old 01-09-2011, 03:37 PM   #152
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I can see that line of logic.

But, I really don't see it going anywhere. I seriously doubt if any jury or Judge would buy the argument. This is going to be painted as one deranged person doing an unexplainable act.

It is just too common for people to use the term 'target' an opponent or other such terms.
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Old 01-09-2011, 03:53 PM   #153
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He liked Hitler. Hitler was a totalitarian. So why am I being told he's left wing for reading Hitler?
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Old 01-09-2011, 03:59 PM   #154
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I can see that line of logic.

But, I really don't see it going anywhere. I seriously doubt if any jury or Judge would buy the argument. This is going to be painted as one deranged person doing an unexplainable act.

It is just too common for people to use the term 'target' an opponent or other such terms.
Well, all you need is:

1. A little bit of evidence demonstrating that Loughner was somehow motivated by the Palin rhetoric and target map.

2. An extremely sympathetic plaintiff (a murdered beautiful little girl who is the granddaughter of a World Series winning beloved baseball manager).

3. An outraged jury, in a federal district court (you pick the venue) that does not appreciate this rhetoric, and is not so maniacal about gun rights.

Again, the First Amendment protects people from criminal prosecution (by the government) for most things they say, but it does not necessarily protect them from civil liability if what they say causes harm to others (whether physical, emotional, financial, etc.). The negligence case would be somewhat straightforward as long as the jury found that it was forseeable that Palin's rhetoric would incite someone (including deranged followers) to take action, and the jury finds a causal relationship between the negligent/reckless statements and the killer's actions.

Even if the civil suit(s) are ultimately unsuccessful, the threat of the possible success, and the very expensive costs to defend them, are still probably enough to make people in the Palin position think twice before going on like this any more. Defending several big civil suits is very expensive (even if you win).
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Old 01-09-2011, 04:07 PM   #155
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While this incident is so incredibly sad on many levels but especially for the victims and families, I suspect it may tame the political vitriol across the board to some extent. Public figures who try to "motivate" by inciting hate and violence will be under the gun () no matter what the mental state and motivations of the shooter are revealed to be.

Criminal or civil actions aside, I'd venture to say that this is going to leave a permanent scar on any aspirations Sarah Palin may have had for a political career. You betcha.

TLC reportedly pulls plug on 'Palin's Alaska' - Entertainment - Reality TV - TODAYshow.com
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Old 01-09-2011, 04:07 PM   #156
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Old 01-09-2011, 04:08 PM   #157
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It is hard to put a label on him. I would not put much value on a book list on some internet site. Who know why one puts them up.

I will tell you conservatives do not (for the most part) claim Hitler any more than liberals (for the most part) claim Communist icons.


If I had to use a label on this guy, I'd say he is more right. He mentions (in his writings, assuming they are his) The Constitution and backing money with gold. Those things are favorites of many conservatives.

And lets get one thing straight, regardless of how moderate Gifford is being portrayed. In AZ she was the big liberal target, that this guy went after. The Governor is GOP, both Senators are GOP, 5 of the 8 Congresspersons are GOP. She was anti-AZ 1070, the immigration bill, she favored immigration reform with a path to citizenship, and an avid supporter of Obama Care. She had a bloody re-election in Nov and was not declared the winner until 3 days after the election, by 1%. So yes the Tea Party, and the GOP establishment were after her. With the GOP completely in charge of reapportionment, she probably would not have won reelection in 2012.

If she recovers and has good mental faculties, she will have a much better shot of being reelected.
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Old 01-09-2011, 04:29 PM   #158
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Meet Daniel Hernandez, the intern who likely saved Gabrielle Giffords’ life



Daniel Hernandez had only been Rep. Gabrielle Giffords' intern for five days, and on Saturday, he may have saved her life.

The University of Arizona junior was standing 30 feet away from the Democratic congresswoman when she was shot in the head at a meet-and-greet event in her district, and he immediately rushed to her side. As everyone on hand waited for emergency medical support to arrive, Hernandez held Giffords's head in his lap and applied pressure to her wound.
At the same time, Hernandez advised others on providing help for the other 20 others injured and killed in the attack—and that quick thinking has led many to label him a hero in Saturday's horrific event.
"When I heard gunshots, my first instinct was to head toward the congresswoman to make sure that she was okay," Hernandez said in an interview with ABC's Christine Amanpour Sunday. "Once I saw that she was down, and there were more than one victim, I went ahead and started doing the limited triage that I could with what I had."
Hernandez, who is 20, told ABC that he simply "shut off all emotion." "I knew I wouldn't be good to anyone if I had a breakdown," he recalled. He noted that he went to help because he had "limited experience in triage and training."
He lifted up Giffords' head, because he feared she might choke on her own blood, and used smocks from the grocery store's meat department as a makeshift bandages for her and other victims.
Giffords, he says, was alert, but couldn't talk.
"'Just grab my hand to let me know that you're okay,'" he recalls telling the injured lawmaker.
According to Hernandez, she squeezed his hand, and he didn't let go, riding with her in the ambulance to the hospital, where she was rushed into emergency surgery.
"It was probably not the best idea to run toward the gunshots," he told the Arizona Republic. "But people needed help."
Meet Daniel Hernandez, the intern who likely saved Gabrielle Giffords’ life - Yahoo! News
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Old 01-09-2011, 04:34 PM   #159
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Well, all you need is:
check this out

Dem planning bill that would outlaw threatening lawmakers - The Hill's Blog Briefing Room

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...ers-officials/

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Rep. Robert Brady (D-Pa.) reportedly plans to introduce legislation that would make it a federal crime to use language or symbols that could be perceived as threatening or inciting violence against a federal official or member of Congress.
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Old 01-09-2011, 05:30 PM   #160
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He liked Hitler. Hitler was a totalitarian. So why am I being told he's left wing for reading Hitler?
oh jesus.
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Old 01-09-2011, 05:44 PM   #161
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I will tell you conservatives do not (for the most part) claim Hitler any more than liberals (for the most part) claim Communist icons.
But conservatives like to paint both Hitler and Marx as being ultra liberal, which makes no sense.
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Old 01-09-2011, 06:25 PM   #162
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He liked Hitler. Hitler was a totalitarian. So why am I being told he's left wing for reading Hitler?
They're saying that because his favorite books were Mein Kampf, and the Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx. Sounds like he was just really into political revolution. He really reminds me of Timothy McVeigh, very anti-government. (His myspace page said that the government uses mind-control on the population ) I watched some of his bizzare shit on youtube as well, it was just really weird. No way this guy was sane.

Quote:
maybe listen to a Taylor Swift song or two.
I went shooting the other day, while listening to my taylor swift playlist.
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Old 01-09-2011, 06:53 PM   #163
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I can see that line of logic.

But, I really don't see it going anywhere. I seriously doubt if any jury or Judge would buy the argument.
I agree with you.

Even with the lower burden of proof in civil cases, I don't see this as being successful.

However, on another level, it doesn't have to be. A protracted civil case, even one that would be a losing one in the end, or may get tossed out of court for evidentiary reasons, would mark the end of any sort of political career that Sarah Palin may have had. Just absolutely toxic.
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Old 01-09-2011, 07:19 PM   #164
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I agree with you.

Even with the lower burden of proof in civil cases, I don't see this as being successful.

However, on another level, it doesn't have to be. A protracted civil case, even one that would be a losing one in the end, or may get tossed out of court for evidentiary reasons, would mark the end of any sort of political career that Sarah Palin may have had. Just absolutely toxic.
And to that end:

Live Blog: Latest Developments on Arizona Shooting - NYTimes.com

11:15 A.M. |Palin Advisers Respond to Criticism About Target Map

One of Sarah Palin's top aides responded Sunday to mounting criticism that she had helped to incite the kind of violence that exploded in Arizona at a meet-and-greet by Ms. Giffords, wounding 20 and killing six.

In the wake of the shooting, many people drew attention to a map of the United States that had been part of one of Ms. Palin's Web sites that showed targets on the districts of lawmakers who supported President Obama's health care legislation.

Ms. Giffords was one of the targeted lawmakers, as she noted in an interview on MSNBC last year.

In a radio interview Saturday night, one of Ms. Palin's top aides, Rebecca Mansour, said of the map of lawmakers: "We never, ever, ever intended it to be gun sights." Ms Mansour said attemps to tie Ms. Palin to the violence were "obscene" and "appalling."

"I don't understand how anyone can be held responsible for someone who is completely mentally unstable like this," Ms. Mansour said. "Where I come from the person who is actually shooting is culpable. We had nothing whatsoever to do with this."

She added: "People who knew him said that he is left wing and very liberal. But that is not to say that I am blaming the left for him either."

Ms. Mansour, who helps run SarahPAC, Ms. Palin's political action committee, made the remarks to Tammy Bruce, a radio talk show host, on a podcast made public on the internet. Ms. Bruce is introduced at the beginning of her show as "a chick with a gun and a microphone."

Ms. Bruce complained on her show that liberals were incorrectly politicizing the shooting by blaming conservatives.

"We all know that the liberals, there's something wrong with them," Ms. Bruce said. "The reaction on the left was to start blaming somebody."

Ms. Bruce added that: "Saying that a mass murdering crazy guy is representative somehow of the political dialogue going on, especially with the non violent Tea Party movement....and yet there are attach this to the tea party and other politicians."
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Old 01-09-2011, 07:27 PM   #165
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In a radio interview Saturday night, one of Ms. Palin's top aides, Rebecca Mansour, said of the map of lawmakers: "We never, ever, ever intended it to be gun sights."
Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.

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