U.S. and Allies Strike Libya - Page 9 - U2 Feedback

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Old 03-30-2011, 06:51 PM   #121
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There's something toxic in D.C.
Leaking info from a classified briefing?
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Old 03-30-2011, 07:54 PM   #122
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If you can't arbitrarily lob missiles into foreign countries to unwind after a hard day's work, what good is the freaking job anyways?
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Old 03-30-2011, 11:20 PM   #123
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well, let me interject with something I haven't fully thought through!

Regardless of all the issues of policy and economics involved here, there is another side on the streets in Libya. Sure, not everyone is a fervent member of the opposition, or a rebel fighting on the street. But there are a very good number of people who were very joyful when they saw international planes flying overhead, and the amount of hope to a beleaguered and retreating people with good and just ambitions must have been great. And not only that, a multitude of innocent lives may have been saved.
Isn't it sometimes alright to step outside of all the cynicism (which I admit has its place - is needed) and feel a bit of hope and solidarity and support for those looking to live free from senseless oppression?

There are economic costs, and political costs, and disagreements about international law; but where does the cost-benefit analysis fall if, as a result, a nation of people can have a better life for themselves and future generations? So that people won't have to suffer the same fate as Iman al-Obeidi? Imagine the devastation if failure surmounted now?

I know that this is idealistic talk, and depending on how things turn out, it could get more complicated; but so far I think it has been a fairly smooth operation, and I don't see any moral outrages to supersede the massive benefits to humanity.

I don't know, I'm shooting from the hip here, looking for a silver-lining in this incredibly intense, suspicious and pessimistic world! At the same time aware that I could be close to doey-eyed dreamer territory!
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Old 03-31-2011, 10:56 AM   #124
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Yes of course we should care about oppression, but there is oppression all over the globe-so why Libya and why now? And if Libya then everywhere else too. Like I said before-what about all the women being raped in the Congo and elsewhere? If that isn't senseless oppression then I don't know what is. How is it not a moral imperative to stop that?
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Old 03-31-2011, 04:09 PM   #125
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sure, but are you suggesting that unless we intervene in all these situations we should not intervene anywhere? I don't see how that is defensible.
Or maybe you're saying that this indicates motives other than pure humanitarian considerations (probably very true.) But, I'm wondering if the end result is worth it in the grand scheme in spite of these motivations.

Let me try an analogy: If a greasy business man decides to donate to a charity so that he can boost his public image and/or be able to apply for a tax credit shouldn't we be happy he donates regardless of why he does it? And regardless of the fact that he is probably capable of comfortably donating much more, and to a greater number of charities?
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Old 03-31-2011, 04:40 PM   #126
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1. Why get him now, after they've left him in there the last 25 years knowing what he was
2. Why go after him for attacking his people, when the people being attacked are a well equipped rebel army, and unarmed, innocent civilians have been mercilessly attacked in other countries, even recently, (such as Bahrain) and nobody did a darn thing about it? (Sudan? China? the list goes on)
3. We can't afford it!!!!

Just wondering if anyone who hated Bush for his warmongering is at all disappointed in Obama for not only not stopping but escalating war and starting a new one?

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Change eh?
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Old 03-31-2011, 05:00 PM   #127
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This seems like a damning point:

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Moreover, the Obama administration has explained its failure to fulfill certain promises -- such as closing Gitmo -- on having to obey limits set by Congress. If the administration's view is that Congress cannot constrain the president's actions in wartime because he is commander in chief, then those restrictions are ones the administration acquiesces to willingly in order to avoid making good on politically risky commitments. If Congress can't tell the administration it can't wage war, it sure as hell can't tell the president where to keep alleged enemy prisoners.
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But, I'm wondering if the end result is worth it in the grand scheme in spite of these motivations.
You can certainly wonder it, but now that it looks like we're about to arm rebels with Freedom Weapons which shoot Freedom Bullets which Liberate people from life, a plausible concern is that we've created the situation where an extended civil war will kill more civilians than would have otherwise died.
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Old 03-31-2011, 05:11 PM   #128
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Yes, we'll see.
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Old 04-01-2011, 12:50 AM   #129
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Just wondering if anyone who hated Bush for his warmongering is at all disappointed in Obama for not only not stopping but escalating war and starting a new one?

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Change eh?
I'm not happy we're in there, but one can't really make a direct comparison.

The U.S. is not leading a full fledged war, unlike Iraq.

There was an actual violent revolution taking place, unlike Iraq.
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Old 04-01-2011, 11:23 AM   #130
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Or maybe you're saying that this indicates motives other than pure humanitarian considerations (probably very true.)
Yes, more like that.

I also think the whole situation is a very slippery slope that could easily dissolve into something very problematic-even a full scale war. I don't want any more of that, we've had more than enough already.
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Old 04-01-2011, 01:39 PM   #131
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sure, but are you suggesting that unless we intervene in all these situations we should not intervene anywhere? I don't see how that is defensible.
I think MrsS explained it.

For me, I think intervention in the Middle East, an area of the world which the Americans (and the west in general) have shown time and time again that they don't understand - culturally, politically, historically or in any other way is extremely foolish and unnecessary. There is no end game in sight, there is no long-term plan, there are no clearly set out goals or expectations and we have no idea who these rebel groups are, who we are dealing with or what the future of Libya should look like. So no, we should not intervene.

There are business interests here and such interested parties (France & Italy leading that pack) should be the ones risking lives and getting into debt for this.

Terrible idea. Obama shouldn't have done it. Though it is by no means the first thing that he's done that's been disappointing in my eyes.
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Old 04-01-2011, 04:08 PM   #132
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And not only that, a multitude of innocent lives may have been saved.
Isn't it sometimes alright to step outside of all the cynicism (which I admit has its place - is needed) and feel a bit of hope and solidarity and support for those looking to live free from senseless oppression?
This

I don't care what the motives were, I'm just glad the rest of the world is doing something to stop a dictator from slaughering it's people. It's a real damn shame they don't do anything else in places like Africa, but why shit on the international community for doing something, somewhere.
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Old 04-02-2011, 11:09 AM   #133
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This

I don't care what the motives were, I'm just glad the rest of the world is doing something to stop a dictator from slaughering it's people. It's a real damn shame they don't do anything else in places like Africa, but why shit on the international community for doing something, somewhere.
It's messy "damned if you do, damned if you don't" territory. No doubt.
I still am not sure where this will end, but I'm glad that it is truly an international effort and not just U.S. grudge vengeance.
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Old 04-02-2011, 02:26 PM   #134
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I heard on NPR yesterday that Lindsay Graham is "deeply troubled" that we have grounded our planes to allow other members of NATO to take the lead in the air strikes.

Talk about "damned if you do, damned if you don't."
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Old 04-02-2011, 02:40 PM   #135
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Marines on ground in Libya


An ABC affiliate in North Carolina says more than 2,000 U.S. Marines are on the ground in Libya.

WCTI-TV in New Bern reports those Marines, assigned to the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU) at Camp Lejuene, are "preserving the sanctity of the city [of Ajdubiyah] and the safety of the civilians within it."

Capt. Timothy Patrick with the 26th MEU told the station: "In Libya right now they are doing exactly what we need them to do. They are doing what they are told, and right now that's protecting Libyan people against Qadhafi forces."

Evidently the Marines' efforts are being successful. The commanding officer of the 26th MEU, Col. Mark Desens, says that following a second round of strikes by AV-8B Harrier jets, the Libyan dictator's forces "are now less capable of threatening the town than before."

According to the report, the 2,200 Marines with the 26th MEU are nearing the end of their deployment in the Mediterranean area and are due to be replaced with Marines from the 22nd MEU out of Camp Lejeune. A March 7 notice from the commanding officer of the 22nd MEU says that unit was being deployed to the Mediterranean Sea earlier than previously planned.
Marines on ground in Libya (OneNewsNow.com)
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